GDT: 2022-23 Western Conference Quarter-Finals game 4 LA Kings vs Edmonton Oilers @6:00pm (LA leads 2-1) 4/23/23

[Herby]

Here’s our original Byfield draft thread if anyone wants to read it: Prospect Info: - LAK Draft (2nd, 2020) C Quinton Byfield - Sudbury Wolves, OHL

And here’s his thread on the prospects board: C Quinton Byfield - Sudbury Wolves, OHL (2020 Draft)

I usually dread reading these because sometimes you are reminded of a really bad take you have.

This was actually interesting to browse through, didn't read it all, maybe 1 out of 5 pages, but there were some funny takes, some good takes, some bad takes.

The only person talking about a long-term project that would include the current time was @bland , so his views were consistent.

@Raccoon Jesus posted something about Byfield being a couple of inches away from people having a different view of his results. I just found it funny because minutes before I saw him post the graphic today about Byfield leading the playoffs in posts hit. Unluckiest player ever?

I hated the decision to have him in the AHL as much then as I do now. It never made any sense. I still think not being in the NHL really set him back.

@All The Kings Men disagreed with me and believes that 18 year old CHL players would be better off in the AHL.

I had a disagreement with @King'sPawn over whether its to early to start talking redrafts or wrong picks. I thought even 4 months in you could tell TS was special. I still think to much emphasis is placed on what guys did at 17 in lesser leagues and not enough of what they have done in higher leagues. There are many filters in hockey, NDTP to NCAA, Major Junior/ NCAA to AHL, AHL to NHL. I think we should put more of an emphasis on results at higher levels.

The Mayors tweets then on the Ontario Reign were as bad and hyperbolic then as they are now.

The WJC discussions on this site are awful. People get way to high and way to low based on a very small tournament. It was no different in this thread.

@Statto was very bullish on the Kings development plan for young players, I know he isn't as much anymore.

@Johnny Utah was actually one of the most vocal Stuetzel supporters. Interesting I never imagined Stuetzel as a Johnny type of player.


Rob Blake's quotes about the pick hinted that he may be ready for the NHL but could also return to the OHL. Nothing remotely close to any 4-6 year development path.

Axl encouraged everyone to take a 2 year wait before declaring Stutzle better than Byfield. Funny because earlier this year, 2 years after that original post he was saying to wait another 2 years before saying Stutzle is better.

@SettlementRichie10 who is supposedly a Byfield hater was actually optimistic and happy with the pick at the time.

 

[kingsfan28]

I usually dread reading these because sometimes you are reminded of a really bad take you have.

This was actually interesting to browse through, didn't read it all, maybe 1 out of 5 pages, but there were some funny takes, some good takes, some bad takes.

The only person talking about a long-term project that would include the current time was @bland , so his views were consistent.

@Raccoon Jesus posted something about Byfield being a couple of inches away from people having a different view of his results. I just found it funny because minutes before I saw him post the graphic today about Byfield leading the playoffs in posts hit. Unluckiest player ever?

I hated the decision to have him in the AHL as much then as I do now. It never made any sense. I still think not being in the NHL really set him back.

@All The Kings Men disagreed with me and believes that 18 year old CHL players would be better off in the AHL.

I had a disagreement with @King'sPawn over whether its to early to start talking redrafts or wrong picks. I thought even 4 months in you could tell TS was special. I still think to much emphasis is placed on what guys did at 17 in lesser leagues and not enough of what they have done in higher leagues. There are many filters in hockey, NDTP to NCAA, Major Junior/ NCAA to AHL, AHL to NHL. I think we should put more of an emphasis on results at higher levels.

The Mayors tweets then on the Ontario Reign were as bad and hyperbolic then as they are now.

The WJC discussions on this site are awful. People get way to high and way to low based on a very small tournament. It was no different in this thread.

@Statto was very bullish on the Kings development plan for young players, I know he isn't as much anymore.

@Johnny Utah was actually one of the most vocal Stuetzel supporters. Interesting I never imagined Stuetzel as a Johnny type of player.


Rob Blake's quotes about the pick hinted that he may be ready for the NHL but could also return to the OHL. Nothing remotely close to any 4-6 year development path.

Axl encouraged everyone to take a 2 year wait before declaring Stutzle better than Byfield. Funny because earlier this year, 2 years after that original post he was saying to wait another 2 years before saying Stutzle is better.

@SettlementRichie10 who is supposedly a Byfield hater was actually optimistic and happy with the pick at the time.

Dude, clearly you're a researcher for the NSA or something.

 

[kingsfan28]

Byfield is only going to get more flak the longer he plays first line minutes in important games. It comes with the territory. Brown went from the darling of the fanbase to a whipping boy as soon as he started seeing top flight minutes next to Kopitar in 2007.

Byfield is a lightning rod because you would need to be blind to not see the potential oozing out of him. Expectations are justifiably high. And high expectations will equate to high disappointment.

He’s also sort of emblematic of Blake’s half cocked three year rebuild attempt, so he’s going to catch crossfire there, too.

Lastly, there’s a serious lack of nuance in language on this board (that I admittedly contribute to) regarding prospects. When people say Byfield is busting, they don’t mean he’s going to be in Europe in two years. They mean he’s a disappointment relative to his draft position. There’s a whole continuum between superstar and career AHLer.

I’ve been highly critical of Byfield since early last season. But I softened on him quite a bit this year as I saw his improvement in the AHL and for stretches on Kopitar’s wing. I still believe he can become a productive top six forward. But I also believe the ship has sailed on him becoming the next Anze Kopitar, *which is what he was drafted to be.*

Ultimately, we all have strong feelings about the team one way or the other because we love the team. Being constantly told that we’re “not real fans” or “want prospects to fail” is incredibly annoying, unproductive, childish, and above all else, stupid.

Just curious, if LA had won the draft, and took Alexis Lafreniere, would we be inching toward "we should be seeing more to potential bust" because as the top pick, he's yet to crack 40 points or 20 goals in 3 seasons territory.

 

[bouncesonly]

If you can get Lizotte back healthy, you might be able to have 4 quality lines

Kempe-Kopitar-Byfield
Arvidsson-Danault-Moore
Fiala-Vilardi-Iafallo
Grundstrom-Lizotte-Kupari

That's nice but it's the mentality of the Kings that can't finish or play an ENTIRE game with confidence. They could have been 5 up after the first and still would have lost. Jim Fox made some dumbass comment at the beginning of the second period on how they shouldn't make unnecessary risky plays....well, they did that, they played real safe, and got absolutely owned. Play safe? With Durzi and Edler going up against McDavid and Draisaitl? lol.

 

[AbsentMojo]

For any of you beer league guys, does changing your stick length make that much of a difference?

Byfield made a pretty big change with that at the start of the year. I don't think it is the only reason why his accuracy is low, but is there a chance it could have contributed to it?

Just food for thought.

Most forwards play with a stick that comes up to between chin and nose.. that was always the rule of thumb for stick sizing that I learned. Ive broken sticks didnt have a spare and borrowed one and it throws you way off if its not close to what your used to.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

I usually dread reading these because sometimes you are reminded of a really bad take you have.

This was actually interesting to browse through, didn't read it all, maybe 1 out of 5 pages, but there were some funny takes, some good takes, some bad takes.

The only person talking about a long-term project that would include the current time was @bland , so his views were consistent.

@Raccoon Jesus posted something about Byfield being a couple of inches away from people having a different view of his results. I just found it funny because minutes before I saw him post the graphic today about Byfield leading the playoffs in posts hit. Unluckiest player ever?

I hated the decision to have him in the AHL as much then as I do now. It never made any sense. I still think not being in the NHL really set him back.

@All The Kings Men disagreed with me and believes that 18 year old CHL players would be better off in the AHL.

I had a disagreement with @King'sPawn over whether its to early to start talking redrafts or wrong picks. I thought even 4 months in you could tell TS was special. I still think to much emphasis is placed on what guys did at 17 in lesser leagues and not enough of what they have done in higher leagues. There are many filters in hockey, NDTP to NCAA, Major Junior/ NCAA to AHL, AHL to NHL. I think we should put more of an emphasis on results at higher levels.

The Mayors tweets then on the Ontario Reign were as bad and hyperbolic then as they are now.

The WJC discussions on this site are awful. People get way to high and way to low based on a very small tournament. It was no different in this thread.

@Statto was very bullish on the Kings development plan for young players, I know he isn't as much anymore.

@Johnny Utah was actually one of the most vocal Stuetzel supporters. Interesting I never imagined Stuetzel as a Johnny type of player.


Rob Blake's quotes about the pick hinted that he may be ready for the NHL but could also return to the OHL. Nothing remotely close to any 4-6 year development path.

Axl encouraged everyone to take a 2 year wait before declaring Stutzle better than Byfield. Funny because earlier this year, 2 years after that original post he was saying to wait another 2 years before saying Stutzle is better.

@SettlementRichie10 who is supposedly a Byfield hater was actually optimistic and happy with the pick at the time.

This is the irony of all the Byfield arguments I’ve been in over the years.

I actually *liked* the pick and wanted him over Stutzle at the time.

Just curious, if LA had won the draft, and took Alexis Lafreniere, would we be inching toward "we should be seeing more to potential bust" because as the top pick, he's yet to crack 40 points or 20 goals in 3 seasons territory.

Absolutely, yes. But even with Lafreniere’s struggles he has been far more productive than Byfield.

Byfield is objectively the least productive top two pick in 5+ years.

 

[All The Kings Men]

@All The Kings Men disagreed with me and believes that 18 year old CHL players would be better off in the AHL.

I do?

 

[kingsfan28]

This is the irony of all the Byfield arguments I’ve been in over the years.

I actually *liked* the pick and wanted him over Stutzle at the time.



Absolutely, yes. But even with Lafreniere’s struggles he has been far more productive than Byfield.

Byfield is objectively the least productive top two pick in 5+ years.

to be fair, he's also played 112 fewer games. Laf has only 2 goals in 24 playoff games, no points in this years either, same as Stutzle [ba-zinga].

 

[Herby]

I do?

As of 2.5 years ago. I don't know, is your opinion different now?

 

[All The Kings Men]

As of 2.5 years ago. I don't know, is your opinion different now?

I don't recall ever having an opinion as broad and definite as

"18 year old CHL players would be better off in the AHL"

It's entirely possible that I said that but I'd need to know what the context was because I have a sneaking suspicion I said something different and it's being interpreted as that quote.

 

[Herby]

Just curious, if LA had won the draft, and took Alexis Lafreniere, would we be inching toward "we should be seeing more to potential bust" because as the top pick, he's yet to crack 40 points or 20 goals in 3 seasons territory.

Yes, absolutely. As a #1 OA pick he has been a huge disappointment. Even more so because he was post 9/15 birthday and was one of the older players in that draft.. They will regret passing on TS just as much as the Kings will. Nobody is holding the Kings to unfair or different standards than other teams

The Rangers poor picks in 2019 and 2020 will eventually come home to roost as their forwards get older, although NYR has some built in advantages that many teams don't have. One of which enabled them to get a future Hall of Fame defenseman for nothing at age 22.

I don't recall ever having an opinion as broad and definite as

"18 year old CHL players would be better off in the AHL"

It's entirely possible that I said that but I'd need to know what the context was because I have a sneaking suspicion I said something different and it's being interpreted as that quote.

I think it was in response to the OHL debating on re-starting during the Covid year and your belief that Byfield should not have been forced to go down there, and that the agreement was not good for drafted players.

I believe it was you who said it, but if it was somebody else who said it, I apologize for misquoting you.

 

[Kurrilino]

No, that is not even close to what I am saying. Have you not read my posts on this forum for years? I guess not, but I was the guy saying the Kings should have extended the rebuild to pick higher in last years draft and especially this one. But thanks, first time I’ve ever been told I don’t believe in building through the draft.

As far as Thompson, I am just saying that for the vast majority of players who end up being as good or better than Tage Thompson there are clear signs early on.

When players taken as high as QB and Turcotte are this disappointing at this stage in their development the results are far more often bad than they are good. That is just a factual statement, people can cling to outliers but they are just that, outliers.

There is no way the Kings took QB expecting a 5-7 year process to see results.

I am absolutely with you, friend.

Those fantasy playoff runs without any purpose or chance to succeed are the most stupid thing i have ever seen.
A rebuild is a rebuild, you play the youngsters regardless the success and let them flourish.
The Vets need to be traded or to be moved to the lower lines.

I only answered to your particular post where you QB potential was questioned at age of 20.

 

[Kurrilino]

Yes but their 6 are better than our top 9.

This is why we don't even belong into the playoff and are only here because 5 out of 8 teams are rebuilding.

Let Calgary do this shit and collect some nice draft picks while we watch the youngsters grow

 

[KINGS17]

There are way more people who are blindly optimistic as blindly negative. Who grasp for straws to find positives while completely ignoring negative red flags. And no, that doesn't make one more of a true fan or anything like that. It just means instead of trying to look at things with balance and objectivity and maybe being wrong, they just say everything is great, and then when prospects inevitably bust (no one bats 1.000) and they end up being wrong on some of them they say people who were not true fans or rooting against them or haters and then bring up and direct posts at people for those things that others were wrong on.

I was personally split on the two players you mentioned, I believed in Kempe and did not believe in Vilardi. And that is fine, when you independently evaluate players and not just think everyone is going to be a hit, you are going to have big hits and big misses.

I don't really agree on the last part, I mean I can sit here and say I was wrong on Vilardi, I didn't think a position change could save his career this much, but it certainly did and I am more than happy to admit I was wrong. (and have said as much multiple times this season) There were a lot of people wrong on Kempe, I feel like a lot of those people have come clean and acknowledged it. On Turcotte, I took a ton of grief, both in posts and in PM's about my views on Turcotte, I was called a "hater", "stat watcher", "rooting against him" just for giving an evaluation that he projected more as a Compher, Cogliano or Copp rather than a Richards or Toews after seeing him play multiple times in college. I would say that the evaluation of the player and all the red flags on offensive ability I mentioned ended up being pretty spot on. I have yet to see any of the people who directed those posts at me "admit defeat" and acknowledge "errors of their way" , so it's certainly not just people who were down on a player and were wrong not admitting defeat.

Hitting below the Mendoza-line with draft picks, especially high picks, doesn't keep a GM in the majors.

 

[Statto]

the context of the entire conversation?


I walk past the sticks all the time. It's long. Very long.

We had Stoll on this past summer and asked him about it directly which led to a surprisingly candid conversation about it and introduced concepts like the lie of a stick having an influence on usage just as much if not more than shaft length.

My first hockey job was stick boy… being a complete nerd about everything I studied it. So I agree about the lie 100%, not to mention the curves.

Back then it was all wooden sticks… it amazes me how todays marks don’t understand how easy modern sticks make shooting compared to a wooden stick. For me it easily balances the goaltender improvements. One of the many reasons the era adjusted stats are BS but I digress.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Byfield is only going to get more flak the longer he plays first line minutes in important games. It comes with the territory. Brown went from the darling of the fanbase to a whipping boy as soon as he started seeing top flight minutes next to Kopitar in 2007.

Byfield is a lightning rod because you would need to be blind to not see the potential oozing out of him. Expectations are justifiably high. And high expectations will equate to high disappointment.

He’s also sort of emblematic of Blake’s half cocked three year rebuild attempt, so he’s going to catch crossfire there, too.

Lastly, there’s a serious lack of nuance in language on this board (that I admittedly contribute to) regarding prospects. When people say Byfield is busting, they don’t mean he’s going to be in Europe in two years. They mean he’s a disappointment relative to his draft position. There’s a whole continuum between superstar and career AHLer.

I’ve been highly critical of Byfield since early last season. But I softened on him quite a bit this year as I saw his improvement in the AHL and for stretches on Kopitar’s wing. I still believe he can become a productive top six forward. But I also believe the ship has sailed on him becoming the next Anze Kopitar, *which is what he was drafted to be.*

Ultimately, we all have strong feelings about the team one way or the other because we love the team. Being constantly told that we’re “not real fans” or “want prospects to fail” is incredibly annoying, unproductive, childish, and above all else, stupid.

I guess my point was not to begrudge yours, @Herby s, or anyone else's opinions on Byfield's actual development, it was more to note we've spent literally the last 100+ posts complaining that Byfield isn't scoring enough while much bigger problems in the context of this game and series exist. But that was a while ago too so I'm not trying to cut the digression off, much of what everyone is saying is more in context than initially. IE we went from basically "byfield is a bust f*** him" to "well with 1st line minutes and matchups come 1st line expectations" and it's much more productive than just ripping the guy for his draft position while we watch Durzi and Edler flail helplessly and Doughty have his worst playoff game ever.

My first hockey job was stick boy… being a complete nerd about everything I studied it. So I agree about the lie 100%, not to mention the curves.

Back then it was all wooden sticks… it amazes me how todays marks don’t understand how easy modern sticks make shooting compared to a wooden stick. For me it easily balances the goaltender improvements. One of the many reasons the era adjusted stats are BS but I digress.

I used a wooden stick all through college (20 years ago, ugh) because they were still cheaper and I liked the heft, and I could rarely break them. Good ol 3 pack of sherwoods for what, 90 bucks? Would last me 6 months at least. Plus, always felt better leaning into a slapshot with that.

But Now I can't even remember the last time I used a slapper and the modern sticks and their whip and consistency is just insane, it's why I'm always a little shocked Doughty always wants to go for the glamorous bomb when it's just so much more effective making one little move and whipping one thru traffic at 4/5 of the speed right on basically a laser guided target, at least that's how it feels to my not-pro self

 

[Statto]

Exactly right. Don't know if the same people who are sour on Byfield were also sour on Kempe or Vilardi, but I do also recall people calling both of them busts.

Ultimately Byfield may be one, and while it may be a lazy argument to make, it's too early to say that.

He's a powerful skater with a hard, but incredibly inaccurate and poorly placed shot. He's pretty agile especially for a big player and has shown at times a pretty good passing ability. His downfall has been his hockey IQ which has been a criticism since day 1.

Imo, he's teetering right on that edge of success vs failure. I hope he can make that move forward. Still early, but time is starting to not be on his side.

As KP pointed out, overall he is improving albeit at a snails pace. But it's better than regressing.

His shot was always a strength historically. That’s why I think the stick change and confidence with that is playing its part. I’m not blaming that 100% but I suspect it does not yet feel natural based on what I’ve seen. He’s also been unlucky with a couple in the P.O. so far, with a couple of highlight saves in tips.

 

[Statto]

@Statto was very bullish on the Kings development plan for young players, I know he isn't as much anymore

That’s fair because my view has evolved on results. There have definitely been some issues with injuries that mitigate things but only to a point. I also think we should have put guys in the right roles when called up, although I liked how AK was used initially.

I do think the development strategy was hurt by Wrobo stepping away. I personally think he was the right guy from a hockey perspective but obvious no idea why it didn’t work out. I think we underestimate the impact of this though.

I didn’t have issue with the plan because no plan works 100%, I’m more worried about how it does not seem to have evolved. I really hate how Bjornfot, Spence and Clarke have been managed. I can’t defend it.

 

[Schrute farms]

There are way more people who are blindly optimistic as blindly negative. Who grasp for straws to find positives while completely ignoring negative red flags. And no, that doesn't make one more of a true fan or anything like that. It just means instead of trying to look at things with balance and objectivity and maybe being wrong, they just say everything is great, and then when prospects inevitably bust (no one bats 1.000) and they end up being wrong on some of them they say people who were not true fans or rooting against them or haters and then bring up and direct posts at people for those things that others were wrong on.

I agree with you that being blindly optimistic is almost as bad. That's the van driving soccer mom fan.

Also, don't take what i said as i comment directed to you. It's more the extreme comments. But hey, i get it -- frustration as a fan leads to wanting & needing to blame someone. Just like the Oiler fans blame the refs/league for conspiring against them.

Valid criticisms and the related discussions about such are good. Blanket extremism is childish & stupid.

RE: Byfield: absolutely he's been a disappointment to this point. You expect more from a #2 OA. Yes, he's had the CV years and injuries. Still it's a disappointment the lack of scoring. Especially compared to other drafted guys. On the other hand, you can't deny that he's still so crazy young and he's improving upward (maybe not fast enough & scoring) and he's valuable overall on the top line of a good playoff team. I think it's both -- he's an improving young player with lots of talent but also somewhat of a disappointment (so far) scoring/production wise. That's Chapter 1 or 2 of his book. Let's see how the rest of this long book proceeds.

 

[Scottkmlps]

I truly believe it comes down to the Kings archaic development system. I agree with Statto, the loss of Wrobo was a big one. They are not putting the young players on the main roster in a position to succeed. Kaliyev on the 4th line is beyond moronic. That is not his game, so play him in a position of strength where he will succeed. And don't punish the young players by scratching them for a handful of games when a mistake is made. That doesn't teach anything. Byfield, Spence, Bjornfot, JAD, etc as well. Quit dicking these guys around.
Another issue is Blake constantly bringing in older players or holding on to them. Edler was not needed to be brought back. Walker should've been dealt at the deadline. Hell, Lizotte shouldn't have been resigned, that spot should've been given to JAD. You draft the youth, but continue to bury them in the AHL.

 

[Sol]

I don’t know if this is a recent thing, but I’ve noticed this season from the games I went to that Crypto Jumbotron seems to endorse people should slamming beers down. It never used to be so apparent but now everyone is slamming beer down and the camera guy gives them more time for it.

With what happened to oilers kid allegedly I wonder how much of this behavior is fueled by the nonstop alcohol endorsement.

I do think if you’re an opposing fan taking your children to a rivals stadium that you are indeed an idiot to take your kid to a booze filled environment.

 

[KINGS17]

I don’t know if this is a recent thing, but I’ve noticed this season from the games I went to that Crypto Jumbotron seems to endorse people should slamming beers down. It never used to be so apparent but now everyone is slamming beer down and the camera guy gives them more time for it.

With what happened to oilers kid allegedly I wonder how much of this behavior is fueled by the nonstop alcohol endorsement.

I do think if you’re an opposing fan taking your children to a rivals stadium that you are indeed an idiot to take your kid to a booze filled environment.

I get that the sale of alcohol is big revenue for these venues. Long ago when I started attending games there was no alcoholic beverages, and if someone brought it in or appeared to be drunk they were removed.

 

[Sol]

I get that the sale of alcohol is big revenue for these venues. Long ago when I started attending games there was no alcoholic beverages, and if someone brought it in or appeared to be drunk they were removed.

A looot of people are getting drunk or buzzed. It’s not a safe environment for opposing fans imo. When these oiler parents brought their kids to the last match up of the season. The anger from Kings fans and cursing was apparent. It was loud. I have no issue with that. But that’s no place for a kid to be.

 

[kingsboy11]

new GDT is up.