GDT: 2022-23 Season game 51 LA Kings vs Florida Panthers @4:00 1/27/23

bland

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Jul 1, 2004
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Some of the hardcore analytics guys say there's no such thing as momentum.

But this game was about as clear of an example of momentum as you'll find. The game completely changed after Florida finally scored a goal.

I suppose it depends on how you define momentum though.
Its why analytics are absolutely useless.

In what world does a statistical average that includes what happened months ago mean anything? What use is that data - a predictor? A tool for change?

Its just a collection of digits that nerds use to fool themselves into thinking they understand something. Thats it, it has no practical use despite organizations falling over themselves to hire people to try and find a way in which its actually relevant.

Momentum and trends, that's all that matters in sports.
 
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funky

Time for the future. More Byfield and Clarke
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I’m hoping this is sarcasm. Durzi has improved but he hasn’t done it himself, there Is fairly significant input from the organisation. Perhaps Blake decided that Durzi could improve sufficiently for this season (no Idea), you cannot take the view that failure is the organisation and that success is the players and expect that to be seen as a considered point. It doesn’t happen in a vacuum. FWIW, I still trade Durzi for a LHD but both Durzi and the org deserve a little credit for his improvement.
yep, there is a bit of passive, aggressive sarcasm in there.

I am a huge Blake fan, was my favorite player other than Gretzky for years. Have had the chance to meet and talk to the guy and found he was very genuine and very knowledgeable. I love a lot of the pieces he has put in place and he has acquired such as Fiala, Arvidsson, Daneault, Iafallo, Byfield, Clarke etc.

What I am worried about is the same thing that has not been addressed for the last two years. Defence and goaltending. Blakes biggest blunder in my opinion has been the Pederson contract. Have not liked that one since the day it was signed, too long and way to much money for the track record.

Also I am actually not a Durzi fan. I like defenceman that play defence. Is there a place for him, yes I can see that, but he has to be insolated and the right usage. I was just acknowledging I have seen an improvement in him while also trying to say Blake has to shit or get of the pot so to speak. I would actual be real interested to see what a bottom pairing or McCabe - Durzi would bring. One guy gets extra minutes on the PP the other the PK
 
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Herby

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Feb 27, 2002
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The Kings record in one goal games the last two years is pretty insane, it’s not supposed to be sustainable to have this kind of points % in one goal games, but here we are for another season. You have to give most of the credit for that to the coach, TM is obviously pushing the right buttons and utilizing players correctly, especially in the third period of games.

I know people dislike him for other stuff, but the record in 1 goal games is why the Kings made the playoffs last year and are in contention for the division this season.

TM and the staff don’t get enough credit for the job they have done.
 

BigKing

Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
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Without looking it up, something tells me he's not the only coach out there with a buttload of wins yet no cup on the resume...Pete Deboer comes to mind.

Not sure why any of us would care about that anyways at this point....the expectation for this year would be to make the playoffs and hopefully win a round. Anyone who thinks we should be challenging for the cup, yet it's just our coach holding us back is f***ing delusional.
Comparing him to the guy that actually took the Sharks to the SCF is classic.
 
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King'sPawn

Enjoy the chaos
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Some of the hardcore analytics guys say there's no such thing as momentum.
Where? When?
Its why analytics are absolutely useless.

In what world does a statistical average that includes what happened months ago mean anything? What use is that data - a predictor? A tool for change?

Its just a collection of digits that nerds use to fool themselves into thinking they understand something. Thats it, it has no practical use despite organizations falling over themselves to hire people to try and find a way in which its actually relevant.

Momentum and trends, that's all that matters in sports.
It measures variable aspects to the game which can be measured, while acknowleding limitations of what can't be measured. Unfortunately, there are people in the analytics community (as there are people who are anti-analytics) who have biases and/or misuse the data (or observations available).
 
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GoldenBearHockey

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The Kings record in one goal games the last two years is pretty insane, it’s not supposed to be sustainable to have this kind of points % in one goal games, but here we are for another season. You have to give most of the credit for that to the coach, TM is obviously pushing the right buttons and utilizing players correctly, especially in the third period of games.

I know people dislike him for other stuff, but the record in 1 goal games is why the Kings made the playoffs last year and are in contention for the division this season.

TM and the staff don’t get enough credit for the job they have done.

Just like with most things, nothing is sustainable, until it is.......that's why the whole up in arms over GD doesn't make any sense.......
 

Bandit

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Jul 23, 2005
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Where? When?

It measures variable aspects to the game which can be measured, while acknowleding limitations of what can't be measured. Unfortunately, there are people in the analytics community (as there are people who are anti-analytics) who have biases and/or misuse the data (or observations available).
Well Jarret Stoll said momentum doesn't carry over from period to period... which is why the Panthers ended the 12nd and started the 3rd steamrolling the Kings.
 

johnjm22

Pseudo Intellectual
Aug 2, 2005
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Where? When?
It's literally one of the most commonly discussed topics in the usefulness of analytics debate.

Here it's being discussed on ESPN:

Here's one of the biggest football analytics sites covering the topic:

You can find thread after thread discussing the topic:
 
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Surf Nutz

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The frustrating aspects of Kempe's game seem to be lessening.

His game is becoming more refined.

I'd like to see him be more dangerous at times, but overall he's become a much better linemate than he used to be.
And the We must trade Kempe all mens choir has been completely disbanded.
The new we must trade so and so choir is being stymied by some good performances and can't agree on a name.
 

johnjm22

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And the We must trade Kempe all mens choir has been completely disbanded.
The new we must trade so and so choir is being stymied by some good performances and can't agree on a name.
The choir is starting to sing the song of Iafallo.
 

Surf Nutz

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Huge two points last night given that the next two games will be very difficult. I was hoping Copley would get the FLA start just because of that. Go for the easier two points and make sure you get those...

On a side note, everyone's favorite coach quietly moved into 23rd all time in NHL wins last night. What...a....loser.
How many playoff series has he won... and lost?
I’m hoping this is sarcasm. Durzi has improved but he hasn’t done it himself, there Is fairly significant input from the organisation. Perhaps Blake decided that Durzi could improve sufficiently for this season (no Idea), you cannot take the view that failure is the organisation and that success is the players and expect that to be seen as a considered point. It doesn’t happen in a vacuum. FWIW, I still trade Durzi for a LHD but both Durzi and the org deserve a little credit for his improvement.
You don't trade Durzi, his breakouts and offensive skill are upper class, continue to work on D, with a specialist in the off season. He cost us a goal but had some great moment against Flo Rida.
Jack Campbell. Alexandar Georgiev, Logan Thompson. These are the names our competitors are trusting their Cup runs to. Might as well add Copley to the list. He fits right in to that group.
Nobody in the Western Conference has a good reliable well-known goalie. This is why I have been saying, Its up for grabs.
Therefore a Western Conference team winning the finals has lesser odds. Any West Conference with potentially elite goaltending is a solid bet to go to the finals.
 

Surf Nutz

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The choir is starting to sing the song of Iafallo.
Critically bad choice too many ambiguous members warming up their hidden adams apples.
Iafallo is the engine grease you put in any part of the motor that is running rough, lines 1 thru 4.
He looks potentially a bit banged up right now but he is hugely underrated in his crucial flexible roles.
If he is ever let go, he will be heavily sought to be picked up on the cheap by serious contenders.
 
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Surf Nutz

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The Kings record in one goal games the last two years is pretty insane, it’s not supposed to be sustainable to have this kind of points % in one goal games, but here we are for another season. You have to give most of the credit for that to the coach, TM is obviously pushing the right buttons and utilizing players correctly, especially in the third period of games.

I know people dislike him for other stuff, but the record in 1 goal games is why the Kings made the playoffs last year and are in contention for the division this season.

TM and the staff don’t get enough credit for the job they have done.
And Blake and the character crunch time players he has assembled. This is the most important team stat in my book.
Kudos for putting the choir on the key note.
 

King'sPawn

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It's literally one of the most commonly discussed topics in the usefulness of analytics debate.

Here it's being discussed on ESPN:

Here's one of the biggest football analytics sites covering the topic:

You can find thread after thread discussing the topic:
Those are all pertaining to football, for one.

But also, the original article doesn't really show the author being heavy into analytics. Just that he doesn't think momentum is a thing (which I disagree).

In the discussion of hockey analytics, I've not seen anyone comment one way or another on momentum.
 
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GoldenBearHockey

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How many playoff series has he won... and lost?

You don't trade Durzi, his breakouts and offensive skill are upper class, continue to work on D, with a specialist in the off season. He cost us a goal but had some great moment against Flo Rida.

Therefore a Western Conference team winning the finals has lesser odds. Any West Conference with potentially elite goaltending is a solid bet to go to the finals.

What goal are you putting on Durzi ??
 

johnjm22

Pseudo Intellectual
Aug 2, 2005
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Those are all pertaining to football, for one.

But also, the original article doesn't really show the author being heavy into analytics. Just that he doesn't think momentum is a thing (which I disagree).

In the discussion of hockey analytics, I've not seen anyone comment one way or another on momentum.


Aaron Schatz is one of the most well know guys in analytics.

Yes the first two links are pertaining to football. I wasn't specifically referring to hockey in my post, just using the game as an example which happens to be hockey. If you looked at the reddit threads, you'd see other sports discussed as well.

I Googled hockey, and this came up:
"On the whole, there is little to no evidence that momentum exists within hockey"

"Despite many studies that have concluded that sports momentum is a fallacy, most enthusiasts fail to accept that momentum does not exist."

 

SettlementRichie10

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May 6, 2012
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So like, one game then?

So the Kings get blown out more often than they blow out other teams, and somehow that’s a defense of their overall value in relation to goal differential. This is galaxy brain mental gymnastics.

The Kings have a crappy goal differential because they’re a fringe playoff team. This is not complicated.
 
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Surf Nutz

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What goal are you putting on Durzi ??
Honestly don't remember, I thought I made a metal note.
I could be wrong too, might have been the game before, I was tired when I watched the game.
You seem to agree Durzi has reeled it in offensively a bit to promote playing better D , which he is making strides in.
I assume you feel we should retain him as well.
 

unicornpig

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Dec 8, 2017
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So the Kings get blown out more often than they blow out other teams, and somehow that’s a defense of their overall value in relation to goal differential. This is galaxy brain mental gymnastics.

The Kings have a crappy goal differential because they’re a fringe playoff team. This is not complicated.
No, they have a crappy goal differential because of quick/petersen. What's the goal differential under Copley....
 

SettlementRichie10

Registered User
May 6, 2012
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No, they have a crappy goal differential because of quick/petersen. What's the goal differential under Copley....

The Kings are currently +8 in games Copley starts.

That’s good enough for 17th in the league and 8th in the west.

Again, fringe playoff team. We all know the Kings would be better with good goaltending. So would a dozen other teams around the league.
 

GoldenBearHockey

Registered User
Jan 6, 2014
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Honestly don't remember, I thought I made a metal note.
I could be wrong too, might have been the game before, I was tired when I watched the game.
You seem to agree Durzi has reeled it in offensively a bit to promote playing better D , which he is making strides in.
I assume you feel we should retain him as well.

Yea there was nothing last night, Danault made a bad pass and Durzi got caught, but that was 100% on Danault.....

Durzi, I'm not sure if I would use the phrase reeled it in, I would say he's learning the difference of when to go and when not to go
 
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unicornpig

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The Kings are currently +8 in games Copley starts.

That’s good enough for 17th in the league and 8th in the west.

Again, fringe playoff team. We all know the Kings would be better with good goaltending. So would a dozen other teams around the league.
What do you think the kings goal diff was in Their cup runs lol
 

King'sPawn

Enjoy the chaos
Jul 1, 2003
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Aaron Schatz is one of the most well know guys in analytics.

Yes the first two links are pertaining to football. I wasn't specifically referring to hockey in my post, just using the game as an example which happens to be hockey. If you looked at the reddit threads, you'd see other sports discussed as well.

I Googled hockey, and this came up:
"On the whole, there is little to no evidence that momentum exists within hockey"

"Despite many studies that have concluded that sports momentum is a fallacy, most enthusiasts fail to accept that momentum does not exist."


You are cutting off a part of the article, and ignoring how he reached his conclusion.

"On the whole, there is little to no evidence that momentum exists within hockey, as judged by whether or not previous goal sequences imply future outcomes."

But he begins by saying: "Of course, there’s no real way of knowing which team believes it has momentum.

So perhaps this question is more appropriate: Are teams more likely to score if they were the more recent team to score?"

And the first line is: "Actually, it both exists and doesn’t exist simultaneously!"

The point was that momentum couldn't be quantified using the methodology he applied. Not that it didn't exist.

From the conclusion of your next article:
"So momentum may exist, but it is much more rare than the typical fan may believe, especially when examining the entire 82-game season. Though, statistically speaking, the St. Louis Blues did not show any signs of momentum, they did look like a different team in the second half of the season."

For the third article provided:
- It actually has no published studies. It just refers to other articles but doesn't actually provide the data
- The article says: "It's what color commentators and sports analysts frequently refer to as "momentum." But researchers say there's no quantifiable evidence that it exists." That's actually not saying it doesn't exist. It's like when scientists don't find evidence of there being a supreme being but they may still go to church. You don't have evidence, but you can still believe it occurs.

==========

I understand and am sure that there are SOME people who rely on analytics and don't think momentum exist (like that one person whose tweet you referenced who seemed to ignore the momentum a team would need to go on a 23-0 run). And I agree they don't understand the game. Especially the psychological impact of emotional momentum. But I think we've not found a good way to "measure" momentum, or at least admit to ourselves that there are some variables, such as momentum, which the analytics can't account for.
 

SettlementRichie10

Registered User
May 6, 2012
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What do you think the kings goal diff was in Their cup runs lol

Are you seriously comparing the 22/23 Kings with the 11/12 or 13/14 Kings? Have you experienced any loss of time? Do you smell burning toast?

The Kings were +21 in 11/12 after the Jeff Carter trade. They were +27 in the playoffs.

They were +32 in 13/14 in the regular season. +17 in the playoffs.

I think you should lie down for a while now.
 
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