2022/23 Roster Thread I: I Don't Know How Much Time I Have Left So I'm Going To Get Real Weird With It

[blackjackmulligan]

And the GM made it in a way that minimizes his options. That's bad GMing, and typical of Fletcher.

No Giroux made it that way. He could have went anywhere he wanted. He choose Florida. Giroux forced the Flyers hand which he had every right to do.

How is it bad GM'ing? You said if he asked for what I posted you tell him no. So that is a possible scenario that could have played out. So if it was, how does one fault the GM in this instance?

Yeah, he chose Florida because they were the best team in the league last year.

Do you really believe they are/were the best team?

 

[deadhead]

What exactly was Colorado going to offer that was far superior to Florida's offer?
Byram and Newhook were off the table.
Same with Boston and any other potential suitor.

People don't give "A prospects" to rent players like Giroux, b/c an "A prospect" often can contribute now, so trading them weakens the team in other areas, and their potential value far exceeds that of a rental.

Where a team gets lucky is when a "B prospect" ends up outplaying that status.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No Giroux made it that way. He could have went anywhere he wanted. He choose Florida. Giroux forced the Flyers hand which he had every right to do.

How is it bad GM'ing? You said if he asked for what I posted you tell him no. So that is a possible scenario that could have played out. So if it was, how does one fault the GM in this instance?


Do you really believe they are/were the best team?

Giroux told Fletcher how he would choose more teams and Fletcher elected not to widen the list.

Yes, Florida was the best team last year. They won the most games over an 82 game season.

 

[Rebels57]

Giroux told Fletcher how he would choose more teams and Fletcher elected not to widen the list.

Yes, Florida was the best team last year. They won the most games over an 82 game season.

Not only that, they were absolutely trashing teams most of the season.

I picked a Colorado-Florida Final before the season even started

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Giroux told Fletcher how he would choose more teams and Fletcher elected not to widen the list.

Yes, Florida was the best team last year. They won the most games over an 82 game season.

Yes he would accept more teams if the GM caved to his wishes. Bad GM'ing would have been if he caved. Again you have no idea what Giroux was asking for (you already said if it was the deal I proposed you walk away), either way it was the correct call imo.

Fletcher is a bad GM. That is not debatable. He is not at fault in this case is how I see it. He had 1 team and 1 team only to deal with. You clearly disagree. Time to move on.

 

[Rebels57]

Yes he would accept more teams if the GM caved to his wishes. Bad GM'ing would have been if he caved. Again you have no idea what Giroux was asking for (you already said if it was the deal I proposed you walk away), either way it was the correct call imo.

Fletcher is a bad GM. That is not debatable. He is not at fault in this case is how I see it. He had 1 team and 1 team only to deal with. You clearly disagree. Time to move on.

And yet he still managed to target the wrong assets from that team.

Tippett is junk. His production in Florida playing with top players was junk. His production here wasn't any better. His entire game is "Skate in straight line, get puck, shoot, and miss the net." There are prospects, like Samoskevich, that should have been the target. He'll be better than Tippet by a sizeable margin..probably as soon as next season.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

And yet he still managed to target the wrong assets from that team.

Tippett is junk. His production in Florida playing with top players was junk. His production here wasn't any better. His entire game is "Skate in straight line, get puck, shoot, and miss the net." There are prospects, like Samoskevich, that should have been the target. He'll be better than Tippet by a sizeable margin..probably as soon as next season.

Managed to get the wrong assets how? Are you privy to info myself and others are not? Can you tell me what else was on the table for him to choose from? I would be curious to know what his other options were.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

And yet he still managed to target the wrong assets from that team.

Tippett is junk. His production in Florida playing with top players was junk. His production here wasn't any better. His entire game is "Skate in straight line, get puck, shoot, and miss the net." There are prospects, like Samoskevich, that should have been the target. He'll be better than Tippet by a sizeable margin..probably as soon as next season.

I can't believe Tippett only had 7 points here in 21 games...he had so many good chances. That's both worrying and encouraging at the same time. I like high volume chance guys.

 

[Rebels57]

Managed to get the wrong assets how? Are you privy to info myself and others are not? Can you tell me what else was on the table for him to choose from? I would be curious to know what his other options were.

When you're trading a player of Giroux's caliber to a team trying to win a Stanley Cup, it shouldn't be too hard to return a prospect like Samoskevich. He's not in the "untouchable tier" but is just a very good prospect with much better tools than braindead Tippet. He's not the only prospect i'd have preferred to Tippett either. The problem is that Fletcher is a shit garbage negotiator (if that isn't evident to you by now than you're helpless). Not only that, but he's shit garbage at evaluating talent and possibly targeted Tippett from the start. He loves those types.

Meanwhile we already have Konecny, Atkinson, Allison, and now Brink on the RW and had no need whatsoever for Tippett.

I can't believe Tippett only had 7 points here in 21 games...he had so many good chances. That's both worrying and encouraging at the same time. I like high volume chance guys.

His finishing ability is atrocious and he's not much of a playmaker so I don't expect the points to start piling up.

I can't believe Tippett only had 7 points here in 21 games...he had so many good chances. That's both worrying and encouraging at the same time. I like high volume chance guys.

His finishing ability is atrocious and he's not much of a playmaker so I don't expect the points to start piling up. For his career, only 60% of his shot-attempts hit the net. I'm not sure where to find where that ranks compared to the rest of the league but I would be surprised if it' not below league-average.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yes he would accept more teams if the GM caved to his wishes. Bad GM'ing would have been if he caved. Again you have no idea what Giroux was asking for (you already said if it was the deal I proposed you walk away), either way it was the correct call imo.

Fletcher is a bad GM. That is not debatable. He is not at fault in this case is how I see it. He had 1 team and 1 team only to deal with. You clearly disagree. Time to move on.

Caved? Little dramatic. You can always walk away if the player's contract demands are too high. And then you get more. Besides, Fletcher actually caves to everyone else in the league, so why not do it in an advantageous way for once in his sad life?

Fletcher wouldn't have been caving, he'd have been maximizing his options. Getting the most value from the situation, instead of doing what he always does and minimizing value.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

When you're trading a player of Giroux's caliber to a team trying to win a Stanley Cup, it shouldn't be too hard to return a prospect like Samoskevich. He's not in the "untouchable tier" but is just a very good prospect with much better tools than braindead Tippet. He's not the only prospect i'd have preferred to Tippett either. The problem is that Fletcher is a shit garbage negotiator (if that isn't evident to you by now than you're helpless). Not only that, but he's shit garbage at evaluating talent and possibly targeted Tippett from the start. He loves those types.

Meanwhile we already have Konecny, Atkinson, Allison, and now Brink on the RW and had no need whatsoever for Tippett.



His finishing ability is atrocious and he's not much of a playmaker so I don't expect the points to start piling up.



His finishing ability is atrocious and he's not much of a playmaker so I don't expect the points to start piling up. For his career, only 60% of his shot-attempts hit the net. I'm not sure where to find where that ranks compared to the rest of the league but I would be surprised if it' not below league-average.

Do you think Zito, who many say is a very good GM, told Fletcher this is what I am offering. You can take it or leave it knowing that Giroux only wanted to go to Florida. Zito had Chuck by the balls and didn't have to offer much at all. Why is that hard to accept?

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Do you think Zito, who many say is a very good GM, told Fletcher this is what I am offering. You can take it or leave it knowing that Giroux only wanted to go to Florida. Zito had Chuck by the balls and didn't have to offer much at all. Why is that hard to accept?

How did Zito know that?

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Caved? Little dramatic. You can always walk away if the player's contract demands are too high. And then you get more.

Fletcher wouldn't have been caving, he'd have been maximizing his options. Getting the most value from the situation, instead of doing what he always does and minimizing value.

Not dramatic in any way. That is what he did, he walked away after Giroux tried to strong arm him.

Sorry telling him you will re-sign him is not maximizing your assets.

How did Zito know that?

Really? Guess he didn't. There was no way at all he could have known. Probably the tightest secret in the history of the world.

How did Zito know that?

Do you now for certain he didn't know?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Do you think Zito, who many say is a very good GM, told Fletcher this is what I am offering. You can take it or leave it knowing that Giroux only wanted to go to Florida. Zito had Chuck by the balls and didn't have to offer much at all. Why is that hard to accept?

Because everything is Chuck’s fault. Don’t get me started on how he caused high gas prices.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Not dramatic in any way. That is what he did, he walked away after Giroux tried to strong arm him.

Sorry telling him you will re-sign him is not maximizing your assets.


Really? Guess he didn't. There was no way at all he could have known. Probably the tightest secret in the history of the world.


Do you now for certain he didn't know?

It is when you have the ability to trade him for a better return. Then you tell him he can take or leave whatever deal you think best. Then maybe you can trade him again, too.

These are facts. Fletcher botched it.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Because everything is Chuck’s fault. Don’t get me started on how he caused high gas prices.

Amazing stuff coming from the guy who still blames Hextall for a roster Fletcher is entirely responsible for.

 

[Fight4yourRight]

Not dramatic in any way. That is what he did, he walked away after Giroux tried to strong arm him.

Sorry telling him you will re-sign him is not maximizing your assets.


Really? Guess he didn't. There was no way at all he could have known. Probably the tightest secret in the history of the world.


Do you now for certain he didn't know?

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Not dramatic in any way. That is what he did, he walked away after Giroux tried to strong arm him.

Sorry telling him you will re-sign him is not maximizing your assets.


Really? Guess he didn't. There was no way at all he could have known. Probably the tightest secret in the history of the world.


Do you now for certain he didn't know?

The point being that Chuck is the kind of guy that would willingly tell Zito that in negotiations in order to reach a "fair" deal for everyone.

 

[deadhead]

The assumption that a 23 year old player, who has played a sum total of 115 games, has zero upside is a bit strained.
Tippett isn't a rocket scientist, but eh, neither is TK.

He has improved his 200 foot game and I'm sure will continue to under Torts. That alone would make him a passable 3RW given his size and speed, ability to skate with the puck and decent passing skills. As long as he continues to improve his two way game, that will buy him the PT to polish his game.

Tippett's issue has been finishing, not uncommon with young forwards - but he's been a prolific goal scorer in juniors and the AHL, so it's more a matter of adjusting to the NHL game, not a lack of raw skills.

Funny, the same people who counsel patience with Frost (same age, even more inconsistent at the NHL level) are ready to give up on Tippett. Flyers can't afford to give up on forwards with speed and skill, they're not overflowing with these kinds of players.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

It is when you have the ability to trade him for a better return. Then you tell him he can take or leave whatever deal you think best. Then maybe you can trade him again, too.

These are facts. Fletcher botched it.

I want to make sure I am on the same page. Are you saying he should have told Giroux yes we will re-sign you so he can open up the the list of teams? Then after the season you tell Giroux take or leave the Flyers offer?

If not they had no other ability to get a better return. Chuck is a bad negotiator. Surely Zito knows this as well.

Sign and trade him again imo is not an option or even part of the conversation. He came back he will surely have another NMC and want to retire here. If not then he would sign elsewhere.

 

[BiggE]

The Flyers are cornering the market on players with physical tools who lack the slightest shred of hockey sense.
Hayes, Risto, Tippett and to a lesser degree Provorov and Laughton.

The players on this team with above average hockey sense are as rare as white rhinos. You have Couts, and, if he’s still alive, Ellis.

I’m pretty sure this is not a good way to build a team.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

On this date 5 years ago the Flyers drafted Kiril Ustimenko

 

[Beef Invictus]

I want to make sure I am on the same page. Are you saying he should have told Giroux yes we will re-sign you so he can open up the the list of teams? Then after the season you tell Giroux take or leave the Flyers offer?

If not they had no other ability to get a better return. Chuck is a bad negotiator. Surely Zito knows this as well.

Sign and trade him again imo is not an option or even part of the conversation. He came back he will surely have another NMC and want to retire here. If not then he would sign elsewhere.

Yes.

That is how responsible sports teams work. It'd a mercenary business.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The assumption that a 23 year old player, who has played a sum total of 115 games, has zero upside is a bit strained.
Tippett isn't a rocket scientist, but eh, neither is TK.

He has improved his 200 foot game and I'm sure will continue to under Torts. That alone would make him a passable 3RW given his size and speed, ability to skate with the puck and decent passing skills. As long as he continues to improve his two way game, that will buy him the PT to polish his game.

Tippett's issue has been finishing, not uncommon with young forwards - but he's been a prolific goal scorer in juniors and the AHL, so it's more a matter of adjusting to the NHL game, not a lack of raw skills.

Funny, the same people who counsel patience with Frost (same age, even more inconsistent at the NHL level) are ready to give up on Tippett. Flyers can't afford to give up on forwards with speed and skill, they're not overflowing with these kinds of players.

He is wholly dependent on his linemates. That's a bad sign.

If there is hidden potential Florida couldn't find, I promise Fletcher and his development process won't find it.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Yes.

That is how responsible sports teams work. It'd a mercenary business.

So you want him to lie to Giroux basically. At that point the GM is strong arming the player. If he did that you and others would be all over the GM for conducting business like that with a flyers "icon".

II have to believe Giroux and his agents are smart enough to see through that unless the main parameters of a deal were agreed upon. No way do I see it playing out as Chuck saying ok we will sign you and Giroux saying ok thanks here is a list of x amount of teams.

Is there any prior examples of teams doing this (without an already agreed to amount and term) ?