Speculation: 2021 Sharks Offseason Roster Discussion part VI

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matt trick

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I'm a little excited for our lineup this year

Kane-Hertl-Barabanov (if the chemistry holds)
Dahlen-Couture-Labanc (high skill, hopefully doesn't get much defensive deployment)
Balcers-Bonino-Meier (defensive shutdown line, still with offensive pop)
Cogliano-Gambrell-Nieto (typical grind it out 4th line)

If Barabanov and Dahlen can play like top 6ers, it's a good lineup. If they can't then we're in trouble

And if they can't and Kane doesn't play (I'd be astonished if he does, but it's possible), they're a bottom 7 team, which I'm fine with. Add in a Couture, Hertl, Karlsson, or Burns injury and they'll be worse than that.
 

Hodge

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Soooo... I'm confused by this conversation. Are we supposed to completely ignore that Coutures slump coincided with his injury that he played thru for like 20 something games? I've been a big a critic of Couture as anyone but for me he was far better last season as a leader and as far as toughness by doing everything he could to stay in the lineup despite probably having a broken foot (per EK65 or Hertl, can't remember which). Also it seemed like he injured a shoulder later on too. All this was in the post game in views. I think there would be less of these hot takes from posters if guys actually watched the pressers.

This started when someone suggested trading Couture and I said no GM in the league is picking up that tab for six more years at $8 million per for a 32 year old 2C. I'm not sure how anyone can reasonably argue against that regardless of how you feel about potentially buying him out two years down the road.
 

tiburon12

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This started when someone suggested trading Couture and I said no GM in the league is picking up that tab for six more years at $8 million per for a 32 year old 2C. I'm not sure how anyone can reasonably argue against that regardless of how you feel about potentially buying him out two years down the road.

The only argument i see against it is that it's entirely possible a team like New Jersey (one with cap space and young talent with an eye on contending in a year or two) absorbs his full cap hit because they can.

OEL got traded at almost full salary (7.6)
 

Stewie Griffin

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The only argument i see against it is that it's entirely possible a team like New Jersey (one with cap space and young talent with an eye on contending in a year or two) absorbs his full cap hit because they can.

OEL got traded at almost full salary (7.6)
Yeah but OEL had to get packaged with Garland and the Coyotes took back Beagle, Erikkson, and Roussel.
 

TheBeard

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Okay if you just want to look at the contracts signed by forwards this offseason Couture is still vastly overpaid compared to what Sean Couturier, Gabriel Landeskog and Taylor Hall got. Even at his peak he was a tier below those players and will be making more than them until he's 38.
Even if the other contracts look better doesn’t mean you just buy it out. Bite the bullet and deal with it. It’s not like we can replace his production anyways.
 
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Hodge

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Even if the other contracts look better doesn’t mean you just buy it out. Bite the bullet and deal with it. It’s not like we can replace his production anyways.

Never suggested buying him out now but because there are no signing bonuses in the final 4 years of the deal it at least becomes a viable option starting in 2023 if he continues to decline. If a new GM came in I suspect that's what he would do even if it means $3-5 million/year of dead cap between that and the Jones buyout. Stash Karlsson on LTIR, try to trade Vlasic @ 50% and you'd have a fairly clean slate to completely reshape the team.
 

Pinkfloyd

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Never suggested buying him out now but because there are no signing bonuses in the final 4 years of the deal it at least becomes a viable option starting in 2023 if he continues to decline. If a new GM came in I suspect that's what he would do even if it means $3-5 million/year of dead cap between that and the Jones buyout. Stash Karlsson on LTIR, try to trade Vlasic @ 50% and you'd have a fairly clean slate to completely reshape the team.

They're not going to try and trade Vlasic at 50% unless it's his final season. Karlsson is actually healthy it seems so LTIR isn't going to be an option until something happens. They're not going to buy out Couture because he's still relatively productive. Couture has to actually become replacement level rather than just overpaid for them to buy him out. If anyone is getting bought out next, it's Kane next season provided there are no suitors and Vlasic the next off-season.
 

tealzamboni

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Mar 3, 2007
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I'm a little excited for our lineup this year

Kane-Hertl-Barabanov (if the chemistry holds)
Dahlen-Couture-Labanc (high skill, hopefully doesn't get much defensive deployment)
Balcers-Bonino-Meier (defensive shutdown line, still with offensive pop)
Cogliano-Gambrell-Nieto (typical grind it out 4th line)

If Barabanov and Dahlen can play like top 6ers, it's a good lineup. If they can't then we're in trouble

I like the idea for the 2nd line, but I think it's contigent on Dahlen being capable and the Sharks being a bit more dynamic in the offensive zone. Otherwise, it seems like a line that can get worn down quickly.
 
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Pinkfloyd

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I like the idea for the 2nd line, but I think it's contigent on Dahlen being capable and the Sharks being a bit more dynamic in the offensive zone. Otherwise, it seems like a line that can get worn down quickly.

It's also contingent on Dahlen being able to perform a certain way to support the way Couture and Labanc play. Those guys aren't winning puck races and board battles. They're going to be playing anticipation and stick work more to control play and that has more defensive risk associated with it. Personally, I'd rather have Balcers with Couture than Labanc just because Balcers plays a more sound two-way game than Labanc does but it won't matter if Dahlen can't solidify a spot in the lineup out of camp.
 

TheBeard

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Never suggested buying him out now but because there are no signing bonuses in the final 4 years of the deal it at least becomes a viable option starting in 2023 if he continues to decline. If a new GM came in I suspect that's what he would do even if it means $3-5 million/year of dead cap between that and the Jones buyout. Stash Karlsson on LTIR, try to trade Vlasic @ 50% and you'd have a fairly clean slate to completely reshape the team.
Obviously it depends on where our team stands then. If we’re still floundering then may as well keep him around. If we are moving up and need the space it makes sense. Guess we’ll see then. All I know is I expect we’ll have a drastically different team in 2023 than we did in 2020
 
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Pinkfloyd

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I think expecting Dahlen to be in the top six is a huge over ask. My expectation is hes on a scoring third line.

Even that's asking a lot. We don't really know what we have with Dahlen until he gets the opportunity. Lots of guys that struggle playing in NA continue to struggle rather than evolve and solidify themselves as an NHL player. I suspect that they will give him every opportunity to succeed here but there's no reason to pencil him into the opening night lineup before we even see some preseason action. John Leonard has a better chance at being there than Dahlen does just based on his experience. Dahlen went from struggling in the AHL to dominating a second tier Swedish league to going for an NHL spot. And I suspect that if he doesn't make it out of camp, which is a real possibility, he's sent back to Sweden and let go.
 

Boy Hedican

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Jul 12, 2006
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I'm a little excited for our lineup this year

Kane-Hertl-Barabanov (if the chemistry holds)
Dahlen-Couture-Labanc (high skill, hopefully doesn't get much defensive deployment)
Balcers-Bonino-Meier (defensive shutdown line, still with offensive pop)
Cogliano-Gambrell-Nieto (typical grind it out 4th line)

If Barabanov and Dahlen can play like top 6ers, it's a good lineup. If they can't then we're in trouble

would much rather swap Labanc and Balcers/Meier for that 2nd line as the primary F1. Otherwise that line is just going to wait for things to happen for them rather than do the dirty work.
 
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Doctor Soraluce

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If you don't think Couture is tradeable even at his salary you haven't been paying attention to this off season... under a flat cap... By the time the Sharks might want to move on from his contract the cap will likely be going up. They could easily retain a couple mil and move him to a contender with space to fill out their scoring. As Couture gets older he will still be a guy who isn't very fast or big but is capable of scoring big goals and making smart plays. He will eventually move to wing and still be a 20 goal scorer probably up until his last season or 2 on that contract. He reminds me a lot of Pavelski but with more talent. With the right line mates I don't see any reason he can't be a 40-50 point player minimum for at least another 3 or 4 seasons depending on health.

As far as buying him out in a couple years... totally unnecessary. If the Sharks suck there are other contracts coming off the books and the cap is likely going up in a couple years making his hit shrink. This is a pointless conversation and if DW didn't buy out Vlasic, he certainly won't buy out couture until maybe the last season or 2 depending on his decline. Coutures play experience as a 2 way forward though makes him an ideal future 3/4 line center or top 6 vet scoring winger to end his career.
 
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Doctor Soraluce

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Sep 28, 2017
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I'm a little excited for our lineup this year

Kane-Hertl-Barabanov (if the chemistry holds)
Dahlen-Couture-Labanc (high skill, hopefully doesn't get much defensive deployment)
Balcers-Bonino-Meier (defensive shutdown line, still with offensive pop)
Cogliano-Gambrell-Nieto (typical grind it out 4th line)

If Barabanov and Dahlen can play like top 6ers, it's a good lineup. If they can't then we're in trouble
You can't put Labanc and Dahlen on Coutures wings unless Labanc spent the offseason taking steroids.:laugh: That's a line that things happen to, not one that makes things happen. Gotta put one beefcake on each of the top 3 lines. I like Meier with Bonino though. That should make that line very effective. Also if we are to believe that Kurz isn't a hack (stretch, I know) and Hertl isn't happy with Kane, It's probably best to split them. A healthy Hertl would be able to make due with Barabanov and Dahlen in a 2nd line deployment. You can swap Dahlen, Labanc, Balcers etc as needed. If guys struggle there are more than enough wingers to swap around but Couture needs either Meier or Kane on his wing to be effective. And just because I can, I'm putting Gamby on the bench.:laugh:

Dahlen-Hertl-Barabanov
Kane-Couture-Labanc
Balcers-Bonino-Meier
Cogliano-Pedersen-Nieto
Gambrel
 
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Jargon

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If you don't think Couture is tradeable even at his salary you haven't been paying attention to this off season... under a flat cap... By the time the Sharks might want to move on from his contract the cap will likely be going up. They could easily retain a couple mil and move him to a contender with space to fill out their scoring. As Couture gets older he will still be a guy who isn't very fast or big but is capable of scoring big goals and making smart plays. He will eventually move to wing and still be a 20 goal scorer probably up until his last season or 2 on that contract. He reminds me a lot of Pavelski but with more talent. With the right line mates I don't see any reason he can't be a 40-50 point player minimum for at least another 3 or 4 seasons depending on health.

As far as buying him out in a couple years... totally unnecessary. If the Sharks suck there are other contracts coming off the books and the cap is likely going up in a couple years making his hit shrink. This is a pointless conversation and if DW didn't buy out Vlasic, he certainly won't buy out couture until maybe the last season or 2 depending on his decline. Coutures play experience as a 2 way forward though makes him an ideal future 3/4 line center or top 6 vet scoring winger to end his career.

I always thought Pavelski was more talented than Couture but agree they’re similar.
 

Doctor Soraluce

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I always thought Pavelski was more talented than Couture but agree they’re similar.
Pavs works harder to make better use of his limited physical talents. Couture was drafted in the 1st round for a reason. Same goes for Pavs in the 6th. If Couture worked as hard as Pavs he'd be a better player than he is. The give away is his shirtless interviews recently. Dude needs to spend more time in the gym. Pavs is very muscular by contrast and is also very intelligent on the ice. Couture is more of a naturally gifted player.
 

Hodge

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Pavelski is an exceptional player. I think I underrated him when he was still on the team by giving Thornton and Burns more credit for his success than they probably deserved. He was very similar in playing style and effectiveness to Mark Stone who most fans now consider a top 10 player in the league. It's not a slight to Couture to say he is not and has never been on that level.
 

OrrNumber4

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Who was it that made the case that Joe Pavelski's 2016 season was the best season a Sharks forward has ever had? I'd like to see that breakdown.
 

Pinkfloyd

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Pavelski is an exceptional player. I think I underrated him when he was still on the team by giving Thornton and Burns more credit for his success than they probably deserved. He was very similar in playing style and effectiveness to Mark Stone who most fans now consider a top 10 player in the league. It's not a slight to Couture to say he is not and has never been on that level.

I think you're overrating Pavs' defensive game putting him on Stone's level.
 

Jargon

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Pavs works harder to make better use of his limited physical talents. Couture was drafted in the 1st round for a reason. Same goes for Pavs in the 6th. If Couture worked as hard as Pavs he'd be a better player than he is. The give away is his shirtless interviews recently. Dude needs to spend more time in the gym. Pavs is very muscular by contrast and is also very intelligent on the ice. Couture is more of a naturally gifted player.

Draft number doesn’t really matter, Datsyuk was taken later too!

If I was to compare Pavs and Couture in their prime:

Couture was better defensively. Pavs has a better shot (he’s known for tipping but his first few seasons he was a pure sniper with a crazy, accurate shot) though not by a great deal. Couture is a better skater. Pavs has better hockey sense. Pavs is a better tipper. Pavs is a better leader. Hands, it’s debatable. Probably if we’re talking stick handling, it’s Couture, but Pavs was no slouch and the tipping alone speaks volumes.

I think, as players, I give Pavs a slight edge but you add intangibles, leadership and the like, I’d rather have prime Pavelski on my team than prime Couture any day of the week.
 

Doctor Soraluce

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Draft number doesn’t really matter, Datsyuk was taken later too!

If I was to compare Pavs and Couture in their prime:

Couture was better defensively. Pavs has a better shot (he’s known for tipping but his first few seasons he was a pure sniper with a crazy, accurate shot) though not by a great deal. Couture is a better skater. Pavs has better hockey sense. Pavs is a better tipper. Pavs is a better leader. Hands, it’s debatable. Probably if we’re talking stick handling, it’s Couture, but Pavs was no slouch and the tipping alone speaks volumes.

I think, as players, I give Pavs a slight edge but you add intangibles, leadership and the like, I’d rather have prime Pavelski on my team than prime Couture any day of the week.
Pavs was most definitely propped up by Jumbo and Burns. Pavs pretty much always required a great player to carry him whereas Couture was the driving force on his line until recently. Pavs made the most out of his abilities thru hard work and perseverance. Dude is a great leader and effective player but he's mostly opportunistic and someone who has pretty much always needed great players to generate the chances that he worked so hard at finishing. For a number of years, Couture was the producer on his line. Couture is also more clutch IMO. His scoring rate jumps dramatically in the playoffs while Pavs actually drops over their careers so far. What he did in 2016 and 2019 playoffs cements it IMO for Couture as the better stand alone player. Pavs is definitely the better leader though. I doubt Couture ages as well as Pass has too due to all the injuries Couture has suffered. Dudes only going to get more brittle especially if he doesn't start really trying to pack on muscle. I remember early on in Pavs career he got beat up physically one season and made a point to add muscle and came back the next season with big ass traps. You could tell by his jaw line and shoulders how much muscle he added.

Couture was always the better "sniper" IMO due to having far more goals where he just skated down the wing, picked a spot and beat the goalie clean. Pavs goals where mostly off rebounds, tips and one timers when the goalie had to push off side to side which opens a ton of holes. "greasy" goals like the broadcasters like to call them. Hard working. Pavs reminds me a lot of Dino Ciccarelli.
 
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Pavelski2112

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Pavs was most definitely propped up by Jumbo and Burns. Pavs pretty much always required a great player to carry him whereas Couture was the driving force on his line until recently. Pavs made the most out of his abilities thru hard work and perseverance. Dude is a great leader and effective player but he's someone who has pretty much always needed great players to play off. For a number of years, Couture was the producer on his line. Couture is also more clutch IMO. His scoring rate jumps dramatically in the playoffs while Pavs actually drops over their careers so far. What he did in 2016 and 2019 playoffs cements it IMO for Couture as the better stand alone player. Pavs is definitely the better leader though.
In a way I agree, but he did pretty well with guys like Kyle Wellwood on his wing before he was ever paired with Jumbo. Hell, he had 66pts in 2011 as the 3C.
 

Doctor Soraluce

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In a way I agree, but he did pretty well with guys like Kyle Wellwood on his wing before he was ever paired with Jumbo. Hell, he had 66pts in 2011 as the 3C.
Couture was the 3c for the 2011 season and was the 3C for the last 25 games the season prior. Pavs was up playing in the top 6 and got the 3rd most ice time among forwards that season. Wellwood only played 35 games that season.
 
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