WC: 2021 Russia Roster Talk

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Garipov definitely doesn't belong in this conversation at all for quite some years. I think Bobkov is still a downgrade comparing to Samonov, maybe could compete with Bocharov though. Tarasov was in Cleveland last time I checked, as for Askarov I wouldn't mind to at least see him in the camp, but he almost didn't play since the WJC. Not to mention that so far, Samonov actually brings results here pretty decently - doesn't steal games, of course, yet isn't bad either.

Isn't part of that problem what happens with SKA? Same coach running SKA and the Russian National Team. If Askarov doesn't get game time with SKA and therefore isn't an option for the Russian National Team, whose fault is that? I understand that Hellberg is constantly injured, but when he's not, I feel like he's better than Samonov. And I would also think that Askarov should be getting game time with SKA before Samonov, so thats my reasoning that Samonov is SKA's third best goalie. If he's SKA's third best goalie and he's playing 10 games per season, is he even considered for the Russian National Team? He may not be, or at least, he'd almost certainly not be starting. To me, the issue starts with what happens at SKA. You can't detach that from the National Team.

 

[MaxV]

Samonov is meh, but he is also far from this team's biggest problem. I'm not sure Bob will be better.

 

[Caser]

Isn't part of that problem what happens with SKA? Same coach running SKA and the Russian National Team. If Askarov doesn't get game time with SKA and therefore isn't an option for the Russian National Team, whose fault is that? I understand that Hellberg is constantly injured, but when he's not, I feel like he's better than Samonov. And I would also think that Askarov should be getting game time with SKA before Samonov, so thats my reasoning that Samonov is SKA's third best goalie. If he's SKA's third best goalie and he's playing 10 games per season, is he even considered for the Russian National Team? He may not be, or at least, he'd almost certainly not be starting. To me, the issue starts with what happens at SKA. You can't detach that from the National Team.

And sounds like they are changing Hedberg for Johansson, which likely means not much KHL chances for Askarov also next season. In my opinion they should've just went with Samonov/Askarov as their 1A/1B, but oh welp.

 

[Poiquets]

Will Orlov and Tarasenko play against Sweden tomorrow?

EDIT: On the previous page it was said that they will, according to kshahdoo

 

[Caser]

Will Orlov and Tarasenko play against Sweden tomorrow?

EDIT: On the previous page it was said that they will, according to kshahdoo

The planned lineup vs Sweden was just announced:

Slepyshev-Voronkov-Grigorenko
Tolchinsky-Karnaukhov-Barabanov
Burdasov-Morozov-Tarasenko
ShvetsRogovoy-Kamenev-Timkin
Galimov

Nesterov-Zadorov
Gavrikov-Provorov
Zub-Orlov
Ozhiganov

 

[AceRuf]

What was wrong with Grigorenko?

 

[Kshahdoo]

What was wrong with Grigorenko?

As far as I understand, he was injured, but day-to-day.

 

[earest]

The planned lineup vs Sweden was just announced:

Slepyshev-Voronkov-Grigorenko
Tolchinsky-Karnaukhov-Barabanov
Burdasov-Morozov-Tarasenko
ShvetsRogovoy-Kamenev-Timkin
Galimov

Nesterov-Zadorov
Gavrikov-Provorov
Zub-Orlov
Ozhiganov

Anyone have confirmation on this? What about PP's? Is Orlov and Tarasenko on them?

 

[Puck Dogg]

On Russian Ice Hockey Federation site there is that planned lineup.

It doesn't tell what kind of special teams they will have, though.

Link

 

[cska78]

What was wrong with Grigorenko?

Right wrist.

 

[HungryFrank]

I'm really confused about the way this team was set up. On one side you have NHL players that obviously don't want to be here and on another you have players that most certainly don't belong to the national team and (surprise surprise) all come from the team their coach is coaching and that team is also SKA.
What are Kamenev, Timkin, Shvets-Rogovoy, Galimov or even Karnaukhov doing on this team? Even if they decided to build a balanced team, not just take top talent, are they really the best players with "bottom 6 qualities"? How come there is only one player from the team that won the KHL?
Why even call up NHLers that don't want to be here? That team was completely lost out there, how do you fail so miserably on organisational/coaching side of things?

 

[SoundAndFury]

It's not a SKA problem, it's a Bragin problem. And it's no coincidence players he likes play for his team while Tkachyov gets released from the club, Marchenko gets cut from NT and Kuzmenko is bottom of the barrel option. Because that somehow makes sense to the coach. Karnaukhov is yet another piece of evidence player selection is not really about SKA.

But some of the critique is also hardly warranted. Who do you call up from Avangard, for example? Sharipzyanov plays in the position that was the deepest on this team, Zernov wasn't very good in the PO (possible injury?).. Semyonov would have probably been useful but again, we don't know the injury situation. And that's basically the end of the list.

 

[Flynn84]

Sharipzyanov is injured and not good enough. Semyonov was injured. Not sure about Zernov.
Some were saying about Kostin, I don't think he would play better than Timkin.

 

[Flynn84]

Why even call up NHLers that don't want to be here?

Who is that?

 

[HungryFrank]

It's not a SKA problem, it's a Bragin problem. And it's no coincidence players he likes play for his team while Tkachyov gets released from the club, Marchenko gets cut from NT and Kuzmenko is bottom of the barrel option. Because that somehow makes sense to the coach. Karnaukhov is yet another piece of evidence player selection is not really about SKA.

But some of the critique is also hardly warranted. Who do you call up from Avangard, for example? Sharipzyanov plays in the position that was the deepest on this team, Zernov wasn't very good in the PO (possible injury?).. Semyonov would have probably been useful but again, we don't know the injury situation. And that's basically the end of the list.

I'm not saying SKA is selecting the team, I'm saying somebody is selecting players from SKA.
If you say there were no better players in whole KHL than Kamenev and others I have mentioned in my post, then KHL is a really fascinating league where one of top centers has 5 points in 20 games.
You'll probably say I know nothing and that's fine, but everybody saw that the team they have put on ice obviously doesn't work, they were no match to weak Canada every other semi-final team has beaten.

 

[DivochLubo]

Kamenev was one of best, if not best player against Canada. Guess he was quite limited with quality of his line mates. This team for me have too many grinding types, lack of creativity. Of course this years Russian national teams tactic go very slowly and defence first is quite limit for offensive players. Seen this tactic at U-20, U-18 and now at senior team too.


,,,,, a

 

[SoundAndFury]

I'm not saying SKA is selecting the team, I'm saying somebody is selecting players from SKA.
If you say there were no better players in whole KHL than Kamenev and others I have mentioned in my post, then KHL is a really fascinating league where one of top centers has 5 points in 20 games.

And I'm not saying there are no better players in the league, I'm saying Kamenev had the highest TOI among SKA players in PO, meaning he was literally the first name Bragin would have on his team. Again, it's not "somebody", it's Bragin. And you or I might think there are better players around the league but it doesn't change the fact those aren't what Bragin wants. And yes, it didn't work as it doesn't work for any club team he has coached either. The man won WJC and it set his career for the next 15 years.

 

[Cherepanov7]

Bragin: the number of candidates for the Russian national team from KHL clubs is decreasing (allhockey.ru)

I see a lot of hate against Rotenberg, and I of course understand where it is coming from but I somehow agree with Bragin on this point.
Many of you guys say they should have picked the right coach and players, and I agree, but when I was trying to put a team together I realized there are just not that many of our guys playing in first and second link of their teams. Also we lost a lot of mid-level guys to the NHL the last two year. At the same time many injuries after the KHL and NHL play-offs.

If Razin/Kvartalnov / you would have to build an KHL players only team how would it look like. Would it really be so different? Given all the injuries etc. Try if for yourself.

 

[DivochLubo]

Sorry but if you using players like Timkin, Shvets-Rogovoi, Galimov instead of Podkolzin, who was best SKA player against CSKA, then it is your fault. I am sure there are still some fast and skilled forwards in the league outside SKA. I am not from Russia, but seen some KHL games on TV, and the league is good on quality, but may be on many clubs are key players foreign guys. That can hurt national team a lot.

 

[Zine]

Bragin: the number of candidates for the Russian national team from KHL clubs is decreasing (allhockey.ru)

I see a lot of hate against Rotenberg, and I of course understand where it is coming from but I somehow agree with Bragin on this point.
Many of you guys say they should have picked the right coach and players, and I agree, but when I was trying to put a team together I realized there are just not that many of our guys playing in first and second link of their teams. Also we lost a lot of mid-level guys to the NHL the last two year. At the same time many injuries after the KHL and NHL play-offs.

If Razin/Kvartalnov / you would have to build an KHL players only team how would it look like. Would it really be so different? Given all the injuries etc. Try if for yourself.

Of the top 15 Russian point producers in the KHL, 4 made Bragin's team. And Okulov only played 2 games with injury, so it's basically 3. Granted Shipachyov was injured too.

Just saying'

 

[Yakushev72]

Let's be honest, it doesn't matter what KHL team you play for - as a hockey player, you are second-rate! You are doing the best you can, but if you were high-end talent, you would be in the NHL. You are not in the NHL because you lack talent, skill, or any number of qualities necessary to get you to there. All KHL players who are considered good enough to get a shot in the NHL are gone immediately! How fast can I get the hell out of here? Look at Kaprizov. He was tied down in the KHL with a contract for three years, but as soon as he could get free, he was out of there! If you are stuck in the KHL, it is for a reason. I agree that several of the SKA players at the WC did not belong on a national team roster, but I am skeptical that other KHL'ers could have gotten the job done.

The biggest downside of the Rotenberg/SKA fiasco is the sense of demoralization that it creates throughout the KHL and Russian hockey. The fact that money and influence corrupts and eliminates competition and cheapens and devalues what it means to win robs players psychologically of the will to win. They stop fighting, and in so doing, they let sometimes lesser teams outplay them, and they abandon efforts to achieve excellence. People around the country will lose interest in hockey quickly if this trend continues.

 

[Czechboy]

Let's be honest, it doesn't matter what KHL team you play for - as a hockey player, you are second-rate! You are doing the best you can, but if you were high-end talent, you would be in the NHL. You are not in the NHL because you lack talent, skill, or any number of qualities necessary to get you to there. All KHL players who are considered good enough to get a shot in the NHL are gone immediately! How fast can I get the hell out of here? Look at Kaprizov. He was tied down in the KHL with a contract for three years, but as soon as he could get free, he was out of there! If you are stuck in the KHL, it is for a reason. I agree that several of the SKA players at the WC did not belong on a national team roster, but I am skeptical that other KHL'ers could have gotten the job done.

The biggest downside of the Rotenberg/SKA fiasco is the sense of demoralization that it creates throughout the KHL and Russian hockey. The fact that money and influence corrupts and eliminates competition and cheapens and devalues what it means to win robs players psychologically of the will to win. They stop fighting, and in so doing, they let sometimes lesser teams outplay them, and they abandon efforts to achieve excellence. People around the country will lose interest in hockey quickly if this trend continues.

I agree with you to an extent (I have a lot of respect for the KHL).

I've noticed both our countries seem to leave NHL players behind to grab players from the domestic league instead. It drives me crazy to see an NHL player not selected and then watch the leading scorer of the Extraliga joining the team. KHL does it as well.

Do you think there is some kind of agreement that our federations must include someone from the domestic league?

In your case at least the players are coming from the KHL which is avery good league.

 

[Yakushev72]

I agree with you to an extent (I have a lot of respect for the KHL).

I've noticed both our countries seem to leave NHL players behind to grab players from the domestic league instead. It drives me crazy to see an NHL player not selected and then watch the leading scorer of the Extraliga joining the team. KHL does it as well.

Do you think there is some kind of agreement that our federations must include someone from the domestic league?

In your case at least the players are coming from the KHL which is avery good league.

Theoretically, the KHL could represent something different for Russia than other European countries, because such a large percentage of the teams and players are Russian. But the quality of play has never progressed, and maybe gotten worse. My point is that the league doesn't produce or even require enough excellence to be a source for world championship teams at any level.

 

[Cherepanov7]

Sorry but if you using players like Timkin, Shvets-Rogovoi, Galimov instead of Podkolzin, who was best SKA player against CSKA, then it is your fault. I am sure there are still some fast and skilled forwards in the league outside SKA. I am not from Russia, but seen some KHL games on TV, and the league is good on quality, but may be on many clubs are key players foreign guys. That can hurt national team a lot.

I completely agree. They should have given at least give Podkolzin (maybe Marchenko) a chance. The outcome would surely not be worse.

 

[Cherepanov7]

Let's be honest, it doesn't matter what KHL team you play for - as a hockey player, you are second-rate! You are doing the best you can, but if you were high-end talent, you would be in the NHL. You are not in the NHL because you lack talent, skill, or any number of qualities necessary to get you to there. All KHL players who are considered good enough to get a shot in the NHL are gone immediately! How fast can I get the hell out of here? Look at Kaprizov. He was tied down in the KHL with a contract for three years, but as soon as he could get free, he was out of there! If you are stuck in the KHL, it is for a reason. I agree that several of the SKA players at the WC did not belong on a national team roster, but I am skeptical that other KHL'ers could have gotten the job done.

The biggest downside of the Rotenberg/SKA fiasco is the sense of demoralization that it creates throughout the KHL and Russian hockey. The fact that money and influence corrupts and eliminates competition and cheapens and devalues what it means to win robs players psychologically of the will to win. They stop fighting, and in so doing, they let sometimes lesser teams outplay them, and they abandon efforts to achieve excellence. People around the country will lose interest in hockey quickly if this trend continues.

True. There was no passion in our play. No fire. That's why I think they should have send younger players. At least they would have some fighting spirit in them.