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duckpuck

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It is more the upside. Jones is never going to be a top 6 forward.
Steel has the potential if the Ducks were not pressing him to be a grinder.

I don't know why it matters. I seriously doubt Seattle would take Jones. I see no way they take him over guys with way more upside (Volkov, Mahura, Steel).

The reason for the discussion is because in the 8-1 scenario, the ducks can protect only one of Jones/Steel. I think the assumption is Volkov is exposed in that scenario.

this part right here. they’ll pick Mahura.

I don't see Mahura as being the pick - he's totally unproven and was unable to crack the depleted ducks blue line. I'm not a Jones fan, but I think he's and Steel are much more valuable than Mahura.
 

Gliff

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The reason for the discussion is because in the 8-1 scenario, the ducks can protect only one of Jones/Steel. I think the assumption is Volkov is exposed in that scenario.



I don't see Mahura as being the pick - he's totally unproven and was unable to crack the depleted ducks blue line. I'm not a Jones fan, but I think he's and Steel are much more valuable than Mahura.

Exactly. And I doubt Seattle is interested in Jones who is a bottom 6 energy guy without potential to be much more. Steel is a skill guy who’s development has been derailed by the Ducks but still has potential, especially on the wing.

Mahura is a guy with top 4 potential that will forever be blocked.

If I’m Seattle Jones isn’t even in my top 2 no matter what the scenario.
 

Deuce22

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If I'm Seattle I'd take Mahura over Steel or Jones. He has far more upside, IMO. The best thing for the Ducks long term would be if Kraken took one of the big contracts off their hands. Expose Henrique, Silf, and Fowler and maybe they'll bite.
 

FiveHoleTickler

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If I'm Seattle I'd take Mahura over Steel or Jones. He has far more upside, IMO. The best thing for the Ducks long term would be if Kraken took one of the big contracts off their hands. Expose Henrique, Silf, and Fowler and maybe they'll bite.

Zero chance this happens. Fowler is a Duck until 2026.
 
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Hockey Duckie

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It is more the upside. Jones is never going to be a top 6 forward.
Steel has the potential if the Ducks were not pressing him to be a grinder.

I don't know why it matters. I seriously doubt Seattle would take Jones. I see no way they take him over guys with way more upside (Volkov, Mahura, Steel).

You do know he became a grinder at the conclusion of the season because his IQ was failing him often on the ice.

I don't understand protecting either Jones or Steel. Rico provides more for this team today and tomorrow because we're not dealing with potential with Rico, but actual production. Even Getz had to wait behind Andy Mac.
 

405Entrance

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You do know he became a grinder at the conclusion of the season because his IQ was failing him often on the ice.

I don't understand protecting either Jones or Steel. Rico provides more for this team today and tomorrow because we're not dealing with potential with Rico, but actual production. Even Getz had to wait behind Andy Mac.
I’d rather get away from the contract and also give steel his final shot. It’s really hard to say who they’ll take tbh. It’s a lot of he said she said we should wait until more is uncovered to debate this more
 
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Hockey Duckie

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I’d rather get away from the contract and also give steel his final shot. It’s really hard to say who they’ll take tbh. It’s a lot of he said she said we should wait until more is uncovered to debate this more

The consensus say we need more talent to surround Zegras with and we're willing to part with Rico? Rico got waived and redeemed himself afterwards. Then had a great WC.

2019-20: 1st in scoring on team (43 pts) and 1st in goal scoring (26 goals)
2020-21: 4th in scoring on team (21 pts) and 2nd in goal scoring (12 goals) *Note: only two players in double digit goal scoring
2021 WC: 2nd in scoring on team (11 pts) and 2nd in goal scoring (6 goals) Helped win Gold as captain.​

His redemption, his exit interview, and his WC performance as captain points to a rebound year for Rico in a normal hockey schedule. On a team that lacks goal scoring and nothing on the near horizon of a goal scorer in the system, why are willing to give up a top goal scorer for a diminishing prospect? All because of potential that right now does not appear to be feasible? Rico's contract isn't a hindrance as the team will probably pay more on the FA market to get a player of his similar production, unfortunately, and probably on a longer term than what Rico is on today, which is three years left.

Zegras (2019) and Lundestrom (2018) have passed up Steel (2016) on the depth chart. Groulx (2018) has looked very good at the conclusion of the 2021 AHL season. Steel's position is in limbo with the rise of Zegras at center.

Center position
1C Rico
2C Zegras
3C Lundestrom
4C Grant​

Steel is the square peg Eakins has been trying to fit into a round hole for the past two seasons at the NHL level. What worked well between Eakins and Steel at the AHL level isn't panning out at the NHL level right now after two years. I was hyped with Sam after his D+1 year. I kept saying he just needs more time to develop. I said the same thing going into this season. Afterwards, decided that Steel needed to go down to the AHL because he created a hole down the middle. Lundestrom's rise at center after being demoted to wing just made it more apparent to want Steel to go down to the AHL to develop. Steel was never sent down despite being waiver eligible, but Lundy was. Steel wasn't even tried out at wing, but Lundy was. At the end of the season, even Eakins had to accept the fact that Steel had fallen.

And with Groulx progressing at the pro level, Steel's current situation puts him more on the expendable side unless he transitions to wing.

We're far better with Rico in the lineup than Steel. Which is why I wonder why is Steel in the conversation of being protected? I get the potential, but as each year passes by, Steel appears to distance himself further and further away from that potential. In your comment, even you agree with that sentiment with, "also give steel his final shot."
 

duckpuck

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You do know he became a grinder at the conclusion of the season because his IQ was failing him often on the ice.

I don't understand protecting either Jones or Steel. Rico provides more for this team today and tomorrow because we're not dealing with potential with Rico, but actual production. Even Getz had to wait behind Andy Mac.

You're completely ignoring Henrique's contract, the game theory involved in the expansion draft, and the fact that a 31 year old overpaid forward doesn't fit in the ducks rebuild window. The ducks tried to GIVE Henrique away a few months ago and there were no takers - because of his contract. Why would you protect a player in the expansion draft that nobody wants?

And yes, he played better so perhaps he has "some" value now. But if the ducks were fortunate enough to have Seattle take him, they can use the $5.8M to get a comparable younger player (or other assets).
 

nbducksfan19

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The consensus say we need more talent to surround Zegras with and we're willing to part with Rico? Rico got waived and redeemed himself afterwards. Then had a great WC.

2019-20: 1st in scoring on team (43 pts) and 1st in goal scoring (26 goals)
2020-21: 4th in scoring on team (21 pts) and 2nd in goal scoring (12 goals) *Note: only two players in double digit goal scoring
2021 WC: 2nd in scoring on team (11 pts) and 2nd in goal scoring (6 goals) Helped win Gold as captain.​

His redemption, his exit interview, and his WC performance as captain points to a rebound year for Rico in a normal hockey schedule. On a team that lacks goal scoring and nothing on the near horizon of a goal scorer in the system, why are willing to give up a top goal scorer for a diminishing prospect? All because of potential that right now does not appear to be feasible? Rico's contract isn't a hindrance as the team will probably pay more on the FA market to get a player of his similar production, unfortunately, and probably on a longer term than what Rico is on today, which is three years left.

Zegras (2019) and Lundestrom (2018) have passed up Steel (2016) on the depth chart. Groulx (2018) has looked very good at the conclusion of the 2021 AHL season. Steel's position is in limbo with the rise of Zegras at center.

Center position
1C Rico
2C Zegras
3C Lundestrom
4C Grant​

Steel is the square peg Eakins has been trying to fit into a round hole for the past two seasons at the NHL level. What worked well between Eakins and Steel at the AHL level isn't panning out at the NHL level right now after two years. I was hyped with Sam after his D+1 year. I kept saying he just needs more time to develop. I said the same thing going into this season. Afterwards, decided that Steel needed to go down to the AHL because he created a hole down the middle. Lundestrom's rise at center after being demoted to wing just made it more apparent to want Steel to go down to the AHL to develop. Steel was never sent down despite being waiver eligible, but Lundy was. Steel wasn't even tried out at wing, but Lundy was. At the end of the season, even Eakins had to accept the fact that Steel had fallen.

And with Groulx progressing at the pro level, Steel's current situation puts him more on the expendable side unless he transitions to wing.

We're far better with Rico in the lineup than Steel. Which is why I wonder why is Steel in the conversation of being protected? I get the potential, but as each year passes by, Steel appears to distance himself further and further away from that potential. In your comment, even you agree with that sentiment with, "also give steel his final shot."

At the end of the day, Henrique was viewed as a negative asset a mere few months ago by the entire league. Did he play better after that, yes a bit, but its asinine to suggest that he materially changed his value. He is who he is.

Would Seattle even take him? Probably not. But if they did I would lose zero sleep over it. In fact I would be pleased. I disagree that we couldn’t use that salary cap space to either sign a better free agent, or trade for a better player.
 
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DavidBL

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Just because Rico was not claimed does not mean he was viewed as a negative asset. The fact of the matter is that a near 6 mil cap hit is hard for just about any team to take on right now. Especially with no fans on the stands.
 

Deuce22

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The consensus say we need more talent to surround Zegras with and we're willing to part with Rico? Rico got waived and redeemed himself afterwards. Then had a great WC.

2019-20: 1st in scoring on team (43 pts) and 1st in goal scoring (26 goals)
2020-21: 4th in scoring on team (21 pts) and 2nd in goal scoring (12 goals) *Note: only two players in double digit goal scoring
2021 WC: 2nd in scoring on team (11 pts) and 2nd in goal scoring (6 goals) Helped win Gold as captain.​

His redemption, his exit interview, and his WC performance as captain points to a rebound year for Rico in a normal hockey schedule. On a team that lacks goal scoring and nothing on the near horizon of a goal scorer in the system, why are willing to give up a top goal scorer for a diminishing prospect? All because of potential that right now does not appear to be feasible? Rico's contract isn't a hindrance as the team will probably pay more on the FA market to get a player of his similar production, unfortunately, and probably on a longer term than what Rico is on today, which is three years left.

Zegras (2019) and Lundestrom (2018) have passed up Steel (2016) on the depth chart. Groulx (2018) has looked very good at the conclusion of the 2021 AHL season. Steel's position is in limbo with the rise of Zegras at center.

Center position
1C Rico
2C Zegras
3C Lundestrom
4C Grant​

Steel is the square peg Eakins has been trying to fit into a round hole for the past two seasons at the NHL level. What worked well between Eakins and Steel at the AHL level isn't panning out at the NHL level right now after two years. I was hyped with Sam after his D+1 year. I kept saying he just needs more time to develop. I said the same thing going into this season. Afterwards, decided that Steel needed to go down to the AHL because he created a hole down the middle. Lundestrom's rise at center after being demoted to wing just made it more apparent to want Steel to go down to the AHL to develop. Steel was never sent down despite being waiver eligible, but Lundy was. Steel wasn't even tried out at wing, but Lundy was. At the end of the season, even Eakins had to accept the fact that Steel had fallen.

And with Groulx progressing at the pro level, Steel's current situation puts him more on the expendable side unless he transitions to wing.

We're far better with Rico in the lineup than Steel. Which is why I wonder why is Steel in the conversation of being protected? I get the potential, but as each year passes by, Steel appears to distance himself further and further away from that potential. In your comment, even you agree with that sentiment with, "also give steel his final shot."
Ducks are better NOW with Henrique on the team. But that shouldn't be the goal. Ducks need to develop prospects, draft well, and acquire younger NHL talent in the 23-25 year old range. It's the job of the GM to accurately assess the team and where it is in relation to the rest of the league. If Henrique isn't going to be part of the next competitive Ducks team, his salary would be better spent on someone who will be. The reason I would expose the older, high salaried players is because Ducks could shed their contracts without having to give up assets to do it. That might not be the case in a year or two.
 

Paul4587

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Given the flat cap and the squeeze on mid tier player salaries we could easily replace Henrique in free agency at $3-$4M. There are going to be quality players still around at training camp waiting for jobs again, just like last off-season.
 
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Leonardo87

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Henrique is more of a place holder now, till someone else comes along to fill that other Top 6 center spot. Whether it’s done via draft,trade, or FA. He can still be an effective middle C now, but it is not the long term plan for him to be there.
 

nbducksfan19

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Just because Rico was not claimed does not mean he was viewed as a negative asset. The fact of the matter is that a near 6 mil cap hit is hard for just about any team to take on right now. Especially with no fans on the stands.

That’s exactly what it means, the cap hit for the player is a negative asset.
 
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That’s exactly what it means, the cap hit for the player is a negative asset.

Not really, it isn't even weird for guys to go unclaimed and traded for something immediately afterward, people think of waivers through the wrong lens.

In his case most teams couldn't even make that claim and even fewer are willing to take on that kind of money and send none out. I wouldn't say he's a negative asset, just somewhat of a hard contract to move.
 
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nbducksfan19

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It would be incredibly stupid to use a protection spot on someone you couldn't give away for free earlier in the year. That's as far as you need to look into it.

also, I can’t imagine a scenario where the same GM who waived a player, hoping they would be taken, would decide a few months later to use a valuable protection spot on him.
 
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lwvs84

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Summer might be a better time to move Henrique if he's still here after the expansion draft. Someone is going to miss on all the free agents they want and will have some cash to throw around... it may require some retention or not getting any great assets back, but he'd definitely be movable if that's what management wants to do.
 

nbducksfan19

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Not really, it isn't even weird for guys to go unclaimed and traded for something immediately afterward, people think of waivers through the wrong lens.

In his case most teams couldn't even make that claim and even fewer are willing to take on that kind of money and send none out. I wouldn't say he's a negative asset, just somewhat of a hard contract to move.

what you just described is negative value. If a team can’t give a player away then there value is less than zero. In your scenario a team almost certainly has to retain salary or take on another bad contract to make the deal because the player has a negative value given their contract.
 

nbducksfan19

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what you just described is negative value. If a team can’t give a player away then there value is less than zero. In your scenario a team almost certainly has to retain salary or take on another bad contract to make the deal because the player has a negative value given their contract.

At the end of the day, why would BM not leave Henrique exposed if he wanted to give him away recently?
 
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what you just described is negative value. If a team can’t give a player away then there value is less than zero. In your scenario a team almost certainly has to retain salary or take on another bad contract to make the deal because the player has a negative value given their contract.

I didn't, though. If you retain salary on a guy but get an asset for him, that's not negative value, neither if you take on a contract instead(which happens in literally every deal). Negative value would imply he'd have to be attached to an asset to either get a lesser one or nothing at all and I doubt that's the case.
 

nbducksfan19

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I didn't, though. If you retain salary on a guy but get an asset for him, that's not negative value, neither if you take on a contract instead(which happens in literally every deal). Negative value would imply he'd have to be attached to an asset to either get a lesser one or nothing at all and I doubt that's the case.

That’s exactly the case. Henrique on his current deal is worth zero. If we wanted to get rid of him last year we would have to give up an asset in order to get zero return. If this were not true, or someone would have claimed him.

If we retain salary, to allow a team to have him at a lower cap hit, sure we could get an asset, but that certainly doesn’t mean he has value. We could do the same thing with shattenkirk and he is a trashman.
 

Hockey Duckie

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That’s exactly the case. Henrique on his current deal is worth zero. If we wanted to get rid of him last year we would have to give up an asset in order to get zero return. If this were not true, or someone would have claimed him.

If we retain salary, to allow a team to have him at a lower cap hit, sure we could get an asset, but that certainly doesn’t mean he has value. We could do the same thing with shattenkirk and he is a trashman.

According to CapFriendly, there were only four teams with enough cap space to absorb Rico's nearly $6 mil AAV: Detroit ($7.6 mil), Ottawa ($8.4 mil), LA ($9.1 mil), and NJ ($10.5 mil). All four of those teams are in a similar situation like the Ducks, mostly young and rebuilding. Rico was having a terrible season to start. It's pointless for all four teams to pick up a $6 mil talent for the next four seasons (including this season) on a player who may not regain that ability to play.

Going into this off-season, the Ducks have over $22 mil in cap space, shredding a lot of Perry buyout ($4.625 mil) and Backes' contract ($4.5 mil). We also have one year left on Kesler's contract, worth $6.875 mil, which will be used for LTIR relief. Getzlaf won't be returning at $8.25 mil as well. What exactly will a lower cap hit do for the Ducks? Rico proves he can work here, but we have no idea if an incoming FA, who all FA's are overpaid, will gel. Look at Shattenkirk. In fact, Shattenkirk is what the Ducks or any team will be gambling with for free agency - players in their 30's getting overpaid.

Rico turned his game around and continued his good play into Worlds as its captain.

Rico's NHL 2021 Breakdown
2021 NHL
GamesGAPtsPPG
45129210.47Total
163140.25Before Waiver
2998170.59After Waiver
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

As you can see, his production more than doubled after his final wakeup call. It worked.​

Rico's 2021 World Champions
2021 WC
GamesGAPtsPPG
1065111.10
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

When surrounded with more talent around him, Rico produced very well.​
For the Ducks, Rico was the 4th best scorer on the team and 2nd best goal scorer. For team Canada, Rico was the 2nd best scorer (tied) and 2nd best goal scorer. There's some consistency there with his goal scoring and being a top-5 team scorer. It's obvious that team Canada has better talent than the Ducks. Comtois was also Rico's teammate for Team Canada. Comtois is our best scorer and goal scorer for the Ducks last year, but on team Canada, he was the 4th best scorer (6 pts) and 3rd best goal scorer (4 g) at World's. Two years ago, Rico was our top scorer (26 g) and goal scorer (43 pts).

This is why we should keep Rico while adding more offensive talent. Right now, the only talents we can rely upon are what is in the Ducks' system. The only possible goal scorers in our system no in the NHL are Perreault, who is probably a year away, and Tracey, who is probably two or three years away. We could sign Limoges. We don't have much coming up through our system. Steel and Jones aren't all that when compared to Zegras and Comtois, whom the latter are younger than the former.

Now, I wouldn't mind packaging Rico to get Eichel, which would help absorb about 60% of Eichel's salary for the next three seasons. At least we know we are getting talent worth the $10 mil, if healthy.

I guess my mindset is we can get back to being a playoff competitor sooner with Rico than without. But if you don't think the Ducks are close to vying for a potential playoff run, then I suppose you can just want to shed salary while removing talent to achieve a self-imposed tank. What exactly are you going to do with that salary this off-season? Therein lies the difference in value of Rico. I guess we'll see what transpires. I know GM Murray has kicked around the idea of taking on bad salaries again this off-season, which would project we're in a self-imposed tank mode.
 

MMC

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According to CapFriendly, there were only four teams with enough cap space to absorb Rico's nearly $6 mil AAV: Detroit ($7.6 mil), Ottawa ($8.4 mil), LA ($9.1 mil), and NJ ($10.5 mil). All four of those teams are in a similar situation like the Ducks, mostly young and rebuilding. Rico was having a terrible season to start. It's pointless for all four teams to pick up a $6 mil talent for the next four seasons (including this season) on a player who may not regain that ability to play.

Going into this off-season, the Ducks have over $22 mil in cap space, shredding a lot of Perry buyout ($4.625 mil) and Backes' contract ($4.5 mil). We also have one year left on Kesler's contract, worth $6.875 mil, which will be used for LTIR relief. Getzlaf won't be returning at $8.25 mil as well. What exactly will a lower cap hit do for the Ducks? Rico proves he can work here, but we have no idea if an incoming FA, who all FA's are overpaid, will gel. Look at Shattenkirk. In fact, Shattenkirk is what the Ducks or any team will be gambling with for free agency - players in their 30's getting overpaid.

Rico turned his game around and continued his good play into Worlds as its captain.

Rico's NHL 2021 Breakdown
2021 NHL
GamesGAPtsPPG
45129210.47Total
163140.25Before Waiver
2998170.59After Waiver
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
As you can see, his production more than doubled after his final wakeup call. It worked.​

Rico's 2021 World Champions
2021 WC
GamesGAPtsPPG
1065111.10
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
When surrounded with more talent around him, Rico produced very well.​
For the Ducks, Rico was the 4th best scorer on the team and 2nd best goal scorer. For team Canada, Rico was the 2nd best scorer (tied) and 2nd best goal scorer. There's some consistency there with his goal scoring and being a top-5 team scorer. It's obvious that team Canada has better talent than the Ducks. Comtois was also Rico's teammate for Team Canada. Comtois is our best scorer and goal scorer for the Ducks last year, but on team Canada, he was the 4th best scorer (6 pts) and 3rd best goal scorer (4 g) at World's. Two years ago, Rico was our top scorer (26 g) and goal scorer (43 pts).

This is why we should keep Rico while adding more offensive talent. Right now, the only talents we can rely upon are what is in the Ducks' system. The only possible goal scorers in our system no in the NHL are Perreault, who is probably a year away, and Tracey, who is probably two or three years away. We could sign Limoges. We don't have much coming up through our system. Steel and Jones aren't all that when compared to Zegras and Comtois, whom the latter are younger than the former.

Now, I wouldn't mind packaging Rico to get Eichel, which would help absorb about 60% of Eichel's salary for the next three seasons. At least we know we are getting talent worth the $10 mil, if healthy.

I guess my mindset is we can get back to being a playoff competitor sooner with Rico than without. But if you don't think the Ducks are close to vying for a potential playoff run, then I suppose you can just want to shed salary while removing talent to achieve a self-imposed tank. What exactly are you going to do with that salary this off-season? Therein lies the difference in value of Rico. I guess we'll see what transpires. I know GM Murray has kicked around the idea of taking on bad salaries again this off-season, which would project we're in a self-imposed tank mode.
You are continuing to completely ignore the fact that there is absolutely no chance Seattle will select him
 
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