2020 Off Season Discussion Part V

[rt]

The narrative that they are moving in the right direction is soooo Coyotes. Chayka was the poster child for that ridiculous view of the team. Please god grant Armstrong the wisdom to see through that bullshit. I have to believe he at least sees it a little different by the free agents he added which should keep us from getting beaten into submission as easily. Still hoping he can pull off a big deal to change out at least one of the top six forwards and top four dmen for guys with some upside. A couple guys that can give us a little hop e for some improvement, especially when it comes to scoring goals.

They were the eighth oldest team in the NHL last season.

They had the 10th worst record last season. They had the 13th worst record the year before that, and the 3rd worst record the year before that. They went from awful, to bad, to a little worse. And they got to be one of the oldest teams in the league in the process.

They didn't have a pick until the 5th round of the last draft, and they have no 1st or 3rd round pick in next year's draft. Their prospect pool is middle-of-the-pack, league-wide (at best, and that's very generous). With the lack of picks, it's just going to keep falling down the list as other teams who are selecting players improve their pools.

The Coyotes under 25 assets, as a whole, aren't better than half the league, either. About average.

There is no way to spin this situation as the Coyotes moving in the right direction. They've been bad every season under Tocchet and the future isn't bright. Hell, even the team they've cobbled together for next season isn't impressive. They've got one a bottom five forward group (being very kind, and generous, here, as I think it's easily the worst). They've got a middle of the road defensive group (and more than half of them are pending UFAs with ZERO D prospects coming up through the system - NONE). Their goaltending is top five in the league, though. So that's nice.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

They were the eighth oldest team in the NHL last season.

They had the 10th worst record last season. They had the 13th worst record the year before that, and the 3rd worst record the year before that. They went from awful, to bad, to a little worse. And they got to be one of the oldest teams in the league in the process.

They didn't have a pick until the 5th round of the last draft, and they have no 1st or 3rd round pick in next year's draft. Their prospect pool is middle-of-the-pack, league-wide (at best, and that's very generous). With the lack of picks, it's just going to keep falling down the list as other teams who are selecting players improve their pools.

The Coyotes under 25 assets, as a whole, aren't better than half the league, either. About average.

There is no way to spin this situation as the Coyotes moving in the right direction. They've been bad every season under Tocchet and the future isn't bright. Hell, even the team they've cobbled together for next season isn't impressive. They've got one a bottom five forward group (being very kind, and generous, here, as I think it's easily the worst). They've got a middle of the road defensive group (and more than half of them are pending UFAs with ZERO D prospects coming up through the system - NONE). Their goaltending is top five in the league, though. So that's nice.

Our immediate future is very dependent on Hayton and Soderstrom.

We also need our young roster players to continue to develop. Keller needs to return to 60 points and the other guys need to add 10-20 to their totals.

 

[RemoAZ]

They were the eighth oldest team in the NHL last season.

They had the 10th worst record last season. They had the 13th worst record the year before that, and the 3rd worst record the year before that. They went from awful, to bad, to a little worse. And they got to be one of the oldest teams in the league in the process.

They didn't have a pick until the 5th round of the last draft, and they have no 1st or 3rd round pick in next year's draft. Their prospect pool is middle-of-the-pack, league-wide (at best, and that's very generous). With the lack of picks, it's just going to keep falling down the list as other teams who are selecting players improve their pools.

The Coyotes under 25 assets, as a whole, aren't better than half the league, either. About average.

There is no way to spin this situation as the Coyotes moving in the right direction. They've been bad every season under Tocchet and the future isn't bright. Hell, even the team they've cobbled together for next season isn't impressive. They've got one a bottom five forward group (being very kind, and generous, here, as I think it's easily the worst). They've got a middle of the road defensive group (and more than half of them are pending UFAs with ZERO D prospects coming up through the system - NONE). Their goaltending is top five in the league, though. So that's nice.

Worst part is the lack of a first round pick takes away any light at the end of the tunnel for another losing season. So there's nothing to hope for except a team average enough to squeak into the playoffs. As you said, we have the goalies. That's why I'm still hoping he makes a couple trades. I know there's not much to work with but my hope comes from the fact that the new GM has to want to make a mark on the team. We'll see...

 

[Schemp]

Well, at least we ain't havin' to expose anybody important to the expansion draft, but unfortunately we also ain't in any position to wheel and deal with the krakens either...

 

[Schemp]

Worst part is the lack of a first round pick takes away any light at the end of the tunnel for another losing season. So there's nothing to hope for except a team average enough to squeak into the playoffs. As you said, we have the goalies. That's why I'm still hoping he makes a couple trades. I know there's not much to work with but my hope comes from the fact that the new GM has to want to make a mark on the team. We'll see...

Nothing like forfeiting the 4th overall..

 

[Canis Latrans]

I don't think the players have a need to perseverate on last season's failures too much more at this point. It's probably been one of the only things they've gotten to discuss for the past two months, so I don't mind if they want to take a positive spin on things, as it's likely a better mindset to have going into the new season.

I like Goligoski's take on generating more offensive time to take a load off the defense. He's entirely right about that, but it's not necessarily clear that he thinks the heavier assets acquired are going to get that job done for the team. I agree it's not clear that'll achieve that, but hopefully they'll be harder to knock off the puck and can generate o-zone time with a good cycle since they likely won't have the skill set to dangle it into dangerous areas. I just don't think our fourth lines were much other than capable of forcing turnovers and gunning it up the ice with really low conversion rates the past few seasons, so I'm more positive on this approach.

I think if there is improvement this year it most certainly will come from internal improvement by the few younger guys. As they go, so does the team.

I think it's fine for fans to be cynical because we lack the ability to resupply our prospects and this is looking like less of a bump in the road, but rather a reset into the ditch with way out anytime soon. However, there is no way anyone associated with the team is going to give up in a media interview, so I guess congratulations for seeing through that spin every one?

 

[rt]

I don't think the players have a need to perseverate on last season's failures too much more at this point. It's probably been one of the only things they've gotten to discuss for the past two months, so I don't mind if they want to take a positive spin on things, as it's likely a better mindset to have going into the new season.

I like Goligoski's take on generating more offensive time to take a load off the defense. He's entirely right about that, but it's not necessarily clear that he thinks the heavier assets acquired are going to get that job done for the team. I agree it's not clear that'll achieve that, but hopefully they'll be harder to knock off the puck and can generate o-zone time with a good cycle since they likely won't have the skill set to dangle it into dangerous areas. I just don't think our fourth lines were much other than capable of forcing turnovers and gunning it up the ice with really low conversion rates the past few seasons, so I'm more positive on this approach.

I think if there is improvement this year it most certainly will come from internal improvement by the few younger guys. As they go, so does the team.

I think it's fine for fans to be cynical because we lack the ability to resupply our prospects and this is looking like less of a bump in the road, but rather a reset into the ditch with way out anytime soon. However, there is no way anyone associated with the team is going to give up in a media interview, so I guess congratulations for seeing through that spin every one?

No. No one is saying the players should wallow. You’re making that up. Your whole post is a counter to an argument that doesn’t exist.

I’m not calling for the leaders of the team to openly surrender and accept their terrible fates as losers. Of course not. That’s ridiculous.

I’m looking for accountability and taking personal responsibility for failure and committing to so better. They should say they weren’t good enough, that they know they must be a lot better, and confirm they’re going to do everything they can to be better.

Instead they’re pretending it was a success and nothing was bad other than a couple of bad games. But other than that, they all did a great job and we should all be just as happy as they are with how great they’ve done and their wonderful progress.

It’s gutless horseshit and shows a complete lack of character and leadership. It’s what little kids do. They’re like children.

 

[Jakey53]

The narrative that they are moving in the right direction is soooo Coyotes. Chayka was the poster child for that ridiculous view of the team. Please god grant Armstrong the wisdom to see through that bullshit. I have to believe he at least sees it a little different by the free agents he added which should keep us from getting beaten into submission as easily. Still hoping he can pull off a big deal to change out at least one of the top six forwards and top four dmen for guys with some upside. A couple guys that can give us a little hop e for some improvement, especially when it comes to scoring goals.

We are in tough. All our aging vets who become UFA's won't bring much at TTD, except OEL, and I'm not sure we can trade him because we lose 5 D to UFA. We really need Capo and Soderstrom to make not only the jump to full time NHL, but an impact, and hope maybe a guy like Crotty can surprise. Same goes for forward. We need Keller to take the next step, and Hayton to show he was worthy of a top 5 selection. We are young up front, so patience is key, but I don't think we have any untouchables on this team, so maybe a 2 for 1 trade could happen. Who knows.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Our "leaders" love nothing more than letting themselves off the hook. If they worked as hard on the ice as they do in the spin-room, we'd probably have a decent team.

From Craig's latest:

Stepan:
- “You can asterisk it however you want, but we were still in the playoffs. We were one of 16 teams. That's something that has kind of gotten forgotten here because we lost our last two games the way we did. "
- "Each season that I have been here we have gotten better and last season we made it to the playoffs. We lost in a really rough fashion, no doubt about it, but this group has gotten better each year and I don’t know if you can ask much more.”

Goligoski:
- "We had a good year going but kind of fell apart at the end."

Hjalmarsson:
- “I agree with the other guys that this is a really good group and I have really enjoyed being a part of this group, but I also have a professional attitude to go into a season with a workman mentality. Players come and go, including myself going from Chicago to here. It is what it is. This league is a business."

^ So the new narrative is that the team is great and just played two bad games at the ened. But other than that, they did a great job. We're going to pretend they didn't absolutely free-fall for two months before COVID and that they played like gutless pukes the entire Colorado series.
Love the cherry on top from Hjalmarsson at the end. So obviously completely checked out.

Yeah, the public persona should be we don’t have what it takes and this group will never get there.
I think if you want to fault what you see on the ice, that’s valid, but positive comments to the press is most likely not a good place for a psych evaluation.

 

[Jakey53]

My rebuttals:

Stepan: Yes the team had gotten better up until last January. But the outlook does not look good with an aging roster. Including you Derek.

Goligoski: A good 3 months then a complete train wreck. The team would not have made the playoffs in a normal year.

Hammer: It's an okay group. Everyone seems to like each other but it is not a winning group. And yes players come and go. After this season a lot will be going. Maybe even by March five of them will be gone.

Hammer is likely the only UFA to return if he signs a cheap deal to stay close to his kids. Maybe Stepan if he signs for 2M.

No time to be sentimental. Time to move on from the players you just mentioned.

 

[rt]

Yeah, the public persona should be we don’t have what it takes and this group will never get there.
I think if you want to fault what you see on the ice, that’s valid, but positive comments to the press is most likely not a good place for a psych evaluation.

I very obviously didn’t say that. Stop creating arguments against points I haven’t made. Accountability is not the same as defeatism. Quite the opposite actually. Spinning bad results as good ones leads me to believe nothing will change. Admitting it wasn’t good enough and committing to do better would at least give me some hope. You’re completely backwards on this. 180 degrees.

 

[rt]

When asked about last season, a leader would say it wasn’t good enough. He wasn’t good enough. It doesn’t sit well with him. He’s made it clear to the group that it shouldn’t sit well with them either. They have to be better than that. He has to be better than that. As a leader it’s his responsibility to make sure he’s better and to do everything he can to help him teammates be better, too.

Is that wallowing in self-misery? Is that being a defeatist? Is that throwing in the towel. f*** no! That’s accountability and leadership.

Accepting failure and pretending it’s good enough is defeatism. That’s wallowing. That’s lack of accountability and lack of leadership.

How is this not clear to people? It’s a simple concept and one I hope you’ve seen in your actual lives. What is going on, here?

 

[Heldig]

to echo @rt everyone older than 25 should be available. With player movement now at a stand still (likely until the season starts again) not going to see much happen, maybe at the deadline a few teams always add veterans for a playoff run.

 

[cobra427]

When asked about last season, a leader would say it wasn’t good enough. He wasn’t good enough. It doesn’t sit well with him. He’s made it clear to the group that it shouldn’t sit well with them either. They have to be better than that. He has to be better than that. As a leader it’s his responsibility to make sure he’s better and to do everything he can to help him teammates be better, too.

Is that wallowing in self-misery? Is that being a defeatist? Is that throwing in the towel. f*** no! That’s accountability and leadership.

Accepting failure and pretending it’s good enough is defeatism. That’s wallowing. That’s lack of accountability and lack of leadership.

How is this not clear to people? It’s a simple concept and one I hope you’ve seen in your actual lives. What is going on, here?

Your reading too much into what is said to the press, its mostly window dressing and sound bites. We can't get blood out of a stone and you can't put lipstick on a pig. For this season to be decent and for us to have a shot at the playoffs, we need the following:

1. Great goal tending-this could actually happen.
2. More offence-possible if Keller/Schmaltz/OEL/DVO/Chych/Hayton/Kessel pick up production.
3. OEL goes back to OEL of a few years ago, this is possible, if we don't see it this year it might never happen.
4. Vets in the last year of their contracts always tend to be more productive. We are way under estimating the value and production we will see from vets. This is the number one motivating factor for them, their last contract. I would bet money we see better years from them.
5. RT, I think he gets canned early in the season if we stumble. Other than saving money, not sure why BA is keeping him.

 

[rt]

I can’t wait to get rid of Tocchet, Stepan, Kessel, Goligoski and Demers. I’m really excited for all of them to be gone. I don’t care if we have to wait for them expire, just as long as none of them ever get a new contract from this teams.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

When asked about last season, a leader would say it wasn’t good enough. He wasn’t good enough. It doesn’t sit well with him. He’s made it clear to the group that it shouldn’t sit well with them either. They have to be better than that. He has to be better than that. As a leader it’s his responsibility to make sure he’s better and to do everything he can to help him teammates be better, too.

Is that wallowing in self-misery? Is that being a defeatist? Is that throwing in the towel. f*** no! That’s accountability and leadership.

Accepting failure and pretending it’s good enough is defeatism. That’s wallowing. That’s lack of accountability and lack of leadership.

How is this not clear to people? It’s a simple concept and one I hope you’ve seen in your actual lives. What is going on, here?

It obviously wasn't good enough, only a simpleton would not see that, but they have improved. Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative.

I believe it's foolish to hang on every word these boys utter in the press and then attempt to psychoanalyze based on that which is merely a thorn in their sides (thorn being the interviews).

 

[Sm00chy]

Year 1 of Armstrong's 40 page outline of his plans for the Coyotes probably looked something like this:

• There is really no point in tanking or selling off the Vets immediately due to the Yotes not holding their own high round picks.
• Round out the bottom six of the team in hopes that the top six can live up to their expected production and continue to improve. Keller, Schmaltz and Kessel are the main players in the top 6 I am looking at to produce offensively.
• If the team underperforms they will have a number of Vets that can be sold around the trade deadline to recover the lost draft picks.
  • Stepan can definitely fetch a 2nd or 1st rounder if he has a decent season.
  • Goligoski mid rounder
  • Demers mid rounder
  • Hjalmarrson 2nd or 3rd (if you can convince him to waive for a shot at a playoff run)
  • There are also both goalies that could be available depending on how the season plays out.

 

[rt]

It obviously wasn't good enough, only a simpleton would not see that, but they have improved. Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative.

I believe it's foolish to hang on every word these boys utter in the press and then attempt to psychoanalyze based on that which is merely a thorn in their sides (thorn being the interviews).

I believe it's foolish not to see them categorizing their season as a successful one as an indication of anything but low expectations, and failed leadership. Go watch the post-elimination-game presser. They were asked specifically about accountability among veteran players for this. They squirmed around like the weasels they are. It was pathetic. No go ahead and go watch how Shane Doan, Daymond Langkow, Derek Morris, and Adrian Aucoin conducted themselves. The contrast is striking. This team is led by worms. And it starts with the coach.

 

[rt]

Year 1 of Armstrong's 40 page outline of his plans for the Coyotes probably looked something like this:

• There is really no point in tanking or selling off the Vets immediately due to the Yotes not holding their own high round picks.
• Round out the bottom six of the team in hopes that the top six can live up to their expected production and continue to improve. Keller, Schmaltz and Kessel are the main players in the top 6 I am looking at to produce offensively.
• If the team underperforms they will have a number of Vets that can be sold around the trade deadline to recover the lost draft picks.
  • Stepan can definitely fetch a 2nd or 1st rounder if he has a decent season.
  • Goligoski mid rounder
  • Demers mid rounder
  • Hjalmarrson 2nd or 3rd (if you can convince him to waive for a shot at a playoff run)
  • There are also both goalies that could be available depending on how the season plays out.

I'm actually being patient. I am. I'm okay with waiting. But if Tocchet gets an extension, or if any of these vets get extensions, and that happens before they've earned them through significant on-ice improvement this season, I'm going to be outraged. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not so far gone on any of these guys that I think they're irredeemable. Each had very promising moments against Nashville and brief glimpses even against Colorado. I wasn't calling for Tocchet's head when they were in first place. I'm tired of the collapses and the lack of answers and the apparent lack of accountability. But if things FINALLY click for and under Tocchet, and he get get this team to play with guts and passion and win games, I'm obviously not going to hold a grudge or call it too little too late. I'll call it a miracle and be thrilled.

 

[Sm00chy]

I'm actually being patient. I am. I'm okay with waiting. But if Tocchet gets an extension, or if any of these vets get extensions, and that happens before they've earned them through significant on-ice improvement this season, I'm going to be outraged. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not so far gone on any of these guys that I think they're irredeemable. Each had very promising moments against Nashville and brief glimpses even against Colorado. I wasn't calling for Tocchet's head when they were in first place. I'm tired of the collapses and the lack of answers and the apparent lack of accountability. But if things FINALLY click for and under Tocchet, and he get get this team to play with guts and passion and win games, I'm obviously not going to hold a grudge or call it too little too late. I'll call it a miracle and be thrilled.

I never thought I'd see the day where there is a glimmer of hope in rt's dark pessimistic outlook on this team. I kid I kid...but I actually do agree with most of what you said here. I think this team had some very strong moments last year, but also some head-turning collapses (like after adding Hall).

I am hoping that all of the rumors around OEL being available....and Kuemper being available...and others being available placed some fear in the hearts of these Vets and they bring their "A game" this season.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I believe it's foolish not to see them categorizing their season as a successful one as an indication of anything but low expectations, and failed leadership. Go watch the post-elimination-game presser. They were asked specifically about accountability among veteran players for this. They squirmed around like the weasels they are. It was pathetic. No go ahead and go watch how Shane Doan, Daymond Langkow, Derek Morris, and Adrian Aucoin conducted themselves. The contrast is striking. This team is led by worms. And it starts with the coach.

I can agree 100% that the coach is a moron. I believe (since we're apparently reading between the lines) that the response of the players is based on an extremely morphed version of "never too high, never too low" that the coach deems necessary for the benefit of the younger players. To me, that is not only far more palatable, but much more realistic a take because all these guys want to win, they didn't get in the big show with the attitudes you believe they have.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I don't think the players have a need to perseverate on last season's failures too much more at this point. ...

(I just wanna point out that's what my dad used to call a "thousand dollar word" right there.)

 

[WrinkledPossum]

As a player they should think they could be a great team but cannot allow themselves to fall apart. They should definitely have a positive outlook on next season but they should recognize they can't take nights off.

They should've said we need to play like we did pre January, and against Nashville. There is something there they could build on but they are inconsistent.

 

[Canis Latrans]

No. No one is saying the players should wallow. You’re making that up. Your whole post is a counter to an argument that doesn’t exist.

I’m not calling for the leaders of the team to openly surrender and accept their terrible fates as losers. Of course not. That’s ridiculous.

I’m looking for accountability and taking personal responsibility for failure and committing to so better. They should say they weren’t good enough, that they know they must be a lot better, and confirm they’re going to do everything they can to be better.

Instead they’re pretending it was a success and nothing was bad other than a couple of bad games. But other than that, they all did a great job and we should all be just as happy as they are with how great they’ve done and their wonderful progress.

It’s gutless horseshit and shows a complete lack of character and leadership. It’s what little kids do. They’re like children.

I don't think your standard for what they say is reasonable. They've addressed it to a degree, and that may partly be because of the way questions have been asked to them by the media, not because they were directly asked about accountability and how to remedy that this upcoming season. For all any one knows the team has touched on this numerous times behind closed doors. They have certainly addressed reasons why they believe last seasons failures occurred and some things they can do better, but evidently it's not enough and therefore damnation on their character.

I care a lot more if they personally know what needs to be done rather, instead of what they say to media, but there isn't a way to know if that's actually the case until they get on the ice next season.

 

[Canis Latrans]

I believe it's foolish not to see them categorizing their season as a successful one as an indication of anything but low expectations, and failed leadership. Go watch the post-elimination-game presser. They were asked specifically about accountability among veteran players for this. They squirmed around like the weasels they are. It was pathetic. No go ahead and go watch how Shane Doan, Daymond Langkow, Derek Morris, and Adrian Aucoin conducted themselves. The contrast is striking. This team is led by worms. And it starts with the coach.

You are definitely right that their post-game presser was abysmal, but to counter that I'd say that talking to the media is not where leadership is actually done. I think it's at best a proxy for the rest of their leading, and at worst, they don't like to talk to the media and do not take it seriously at all, so it means nothing. We don't get to see what they say amongst the rest of the team, so perhaps they've put that entirely to bed already and hence why you aren't seeing them dig it back up in recent interviews.

I should also add that's it's become clearly obvious I'm far more optimistic about these kind of Coyotes' things than you, so our interpretations are probably never going to align.