2020 HHOF Class (Iginla, Hossa, Wilson, Lowe, St-Pierre, Holland)

[MXD]

Sometimes its about luck, Sundin played for a crappy leafs team most of his career. Hes very good, but there would be no arguments if he never got traded and stayed in Quebec and eventually the avs. Him and Sakic, what a duo that would be. Better than Forsberg and Sakic possibly.

He would also have been only the 3rd best center on that team.
(Granted, he'd be moving to wing)

 

[Fatass]

525 goals, 1134 points, GREAT defensive player. Really solidified Black Hawks and was a BIG reason they won 3 times. If he played Center, he would've won multiple Selkes. No question Hossa should be in HHOF.

Hossa also won a Mem. Cup.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Sometimes its about luck, Sundin played for a crappy leafs team most of his career. Hes very good, but there would be no arguments if he never got traded and stayed in Quebec and eventually the avs. Him and Sakic, what a duo that would be. Better than Forsberg and Sakic possibly.

otoh if he was better maybe he’s the indispensable one and they trade sakic or forsberg for experience and grit on the wing and he gets to be on that stacked team with roy and whichever other centre they kept and maybe he gets that ring

or maybe he doesn’t because it’s not like sakic and forsberg weren’t critical to those cups

 

[CaptnCanada]

I thought Alfie was getting in this year. It’s now 4 years in a row he’s been left off?

 

[joe dirte]

I thought Alfie was getting in this year. It’s now 4 years in a row he’s been left off?

This isn't the Hall of Very Good.

 

[Oheao]

This isn't the Hall of Very Good.

Yeah, it's the Hall of Fame, and I'd argue he's pretty famous.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Matts Sundin deserves to be in the Hall. Alfie deserves to be in the Hall. Lowe doesn’t. Very unfair that Lowe gets in, and (in that same year) Alfie doesn’t. And Mogilny too. It’s the Hockey Hall, and not the NHL Hall. Alfie and Mogilny had great NHL careers, but they add to that great International careers too. Lowe, nothing great at all.

I think Alfie deserves to be in as well. I just didn't want it in the first ballot.
I knew as soon as he didn't make it, people would attack Mats.

 

[Fatass]

I think Alfie deserves to be in as well. I just didn't want it in the first ballot.
I knew as soon as he didn't make it, people would attack Mats.

Hated Matts (he was best known as a Leaf) but it’s obvious to anyone who watched his career he was a great player, and very deserving of the Hall.
The selection of Lowe to the Hall should bare the brunt of hockey fans’ frustration.

 

[umma gumma]

Alfie never scored 114pts, or 94 as the 2nd highest total.

Bernie Nicholls' peak is 150pts.

Nicholls > Sundin

 

[umma gumma]

I think Alfie deserves to be in as well. I just didn't want it in the first ballot.
I knew as soon as he didn't make it, people would attack Mats.

Look, Mats Sundin is without a doubt a Hall of Famer, but he's not 1st ballot material either. Playing for the Leafs didn't get him into the hall, but I've no doubt it helped him get in 1st try.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Alfie never scored 114pts, or 94 as the 2nd highest total.

Look at goals per game by teams back in 1992-93 when Sundin had his best point totals vs. goals per game per team in Alfredsson's best individual points total. 3.08 in 2005 vs. 3.63 per game in 2005. The offense generated throughout the league will factor into a player's point totals.

Looking at both players' statistical finishes...

Sundin
Individual Total Point finishes

4, 7, 11, 11, 12, 14, 17, 20, 22, 25, 26, 27, 31, 34, 37, 39, 69, 270

Individual PPG finishes

10, 13, 14, 14, 17, 18, 20, 20, 25, 25, 26, 29, 30, 42, 52, 52, 93, 112

Alfredsson
Individual Total Point finishes

4, 7, 9, 15, 17, 19, 23, 26, 31, 46, 54, 59, 68, 90, 93, 129, 180, 232

Individual PPG fnishes

3, 5, 10, 12, 15, 16, 16, 23, 25, 29, 34, 39, 56, 71, 94, 129, 153, 157

Again it's pretty clear Alfie has the edge in peak for both individual point finishes and definitive edge in best PPG seasons. Sundin's strength comes from his longer prime with 8 seasons of top -20 point finishes, 10 seasons in the top-25, 12 seasons in the top-30. In contrast, Alfie has 6 seasons in the top 20, 7 in the top 25 and 8 seasons in the top 30....Alfie's numerous injuries that caused him to miss significant time for several seasons had a noticeable impact on his point finishes which skews things in Sundin's favour to a greater degree.

For PPG finishes, Sundin's remarkable consistency is on display once again with 8 top-20s, 10 top-25 finishes, and 13 top 30 finishes...only one top ten finish though. Alfie has 3 top ten finishes, 7 top-20 finishes, 9 top-25 finishes and 10 top-30 finishes. Peak goes to Alfie, longer prime goes to Sundin.

Again, I think the slight edge goes to Sundin based on his lengthy prime, but rather unspectacular peak. With Alfie's superior two-way play the gap between the two is even less clearly defined...some might say there is little to choose between the two when it comes to hall-of-fame qualifications.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

You did say "Peaks" didn't you?

And Alfie's peak was higher.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

For all the talk of Sundin have poor quality teammates with the leafs and him being the primary reason they made the playoffs as often as they did, it should be noted there were at least 4 times one of his teammates finished higher in Hart Trophy voting than Sundin (most of those years Sundin did not even receive a single vote).

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

The leafs had some solid lineups for most of Sundin's Toronto tenure. Not sure why people are saying otherwise. They absolutely should have beaten Carolina to get to the finals.

 

[Weztex]

Look, Mats Sundin is without a doubt a Hall of Famer, but he's not 1st ballot material either. Playing for the Leafs didn't get him into the hall, but I've no doubt it helped him get in 1st try.

What's up with the ''first ballot'' stuff? There's no 2nd ballot material. Either you're a hall of famer calibre player or you're not.

Being first ballot isn't some special honor bestowed upon a player. It only means that you got support from 75% of the committee in your first year of availability. Unless there's a logjam of candidates in a given year, no player should ''deserve'' to wait for the sake of it. One's case doesn't get better by golfing and watching Netflix for 2 or 3 years.

 

[Kuljeskelen]

About Oilers dynasty, would you rather have seen Lowe or Tikkanen in?
I'm curious from my finnish bias.

 

[Pyrophorus]

And Alfie's peak was higher.

yes 103 is more than 114
and 80 is more than 94

 

[NyQuil]

yes 103 is more than 114
and 80 is more than 94

21 players scored 100 points when Sundin did.

7 players scored 100 points when Alfredsson did.

It’s thinking like this that keeps Alfredsson out of the Hall.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

For all the talk of Sundin have poor quality teammates with the leafs and him being the primary reason they made the playoffs as often as they did, it should be noted there were at least 4 times one of his teammates finished higher in Hart Trophy voting than Sundin (most of those years Sundin did not even receive a single vote).

21 players scored 100 points when Sundin did.

7 players scored 100 points when Alfredsson did.

It’s thinking like this that keeps Alfredsson out of the Hall.

Mats Sundin lead his team in scoring, sometimes by considerable margins, literally every year he was on the team except for one year of Mogilny, and even then after Sundin's 72 points it was Kaberle with 47 points in more games.

There are very, very, very, very, very, VERY few players who have managed something like this.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Mats Sundin lead his team in scoring, sometimes by considerable margins, literally every year he was on the team except for one year of Mogilny, and even then after Sundin's 72 points it was Kaberle with 47 points in more games.

There are very, very, very, very, very, VERY few players who have managed something like this.

What's funny is Leaf fans (not saying you are one) like to say Sundin had no one of quality to play with during most of his tenure on the team...and then they say Sundin led his team in scoring year after year. Well is if that impressive to lead your team in scoring year after year if you have no one of quality to play with as Leaf fans like to say?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

For all the talk of Sundin have poor quality teammates with the leafs and him being the primary reason they made the playoffs as often as they did, it should be noted there were at least 4 times one of his teammates finished higher in Hart Trophy voting than Sundin (most of those years Sundin did not even receive a single vote).

That's true (1999, 2000, 2003 and 2004) - but in all four cases, it was a goalie who finished ahead (Joseph twice, Belfour twice). For most of Sundin's prime, it was him, a strong goalie, and a relatively weak supporting case for a supposed Stanley Cup contender (and obviously a goalie wouldn't help Sundin's scoring totals).

That being said - people make a bigger deal out of this than they should. Sundin is hardly the only star player to have relatively weak linemates. (For example, whenever there's a Sundin vs Modano poll, people are quick to point out how Sundin led his team in scoring by 20- or 30-point margins on a regular basis - without even stopping to consider that Modano did exactly the same thing).

 

[trentmccleary]

That's true (1999, 2000, 2003 and 2004) - but in all four cases, it was a goalie who finished ahead (Joseph twice, Belfour twice). For most of Sundin's prime, it was him, a strong goalie, and a relatively weak supporting case for a supposed Stanley Cup contender (and obviously a goalie wouldn't help Sundin's scoring totals).

That being said - people make a bigger deal out of this than they should. Sundin is hardly the only star player to have relatively weak linemates. (For example, whenever there's a Sundin vs Modano poll, people are quick to point out how Sundin led his team in scoring by 20- or 30-point margins on a regular basis - without even stopping to consider that Modano did exactly the same thing).

Sorry for resurrecting this a couple of days late.

Toronto was typically Sundin, a strong goalie, 1 or 2 relatively high scoring d-men (well above average) and gritty wingers with high goal/low assist totals. Also, for 8/14 seasons there were older/injury prone stars that were still productive when healthy.

The Leafs usually had close to 3 forwards per season among the top-60 goalscorers pre-lockout. Across all 14 seasons, they would regularly have a defenseman in the top-10 in D-scoring and/or 2 in the top-20.

The forward corps clearly took a hit in the 1998 retooling year and post-lockout. But in 8 other seasons, Sundin had some help from Gilmour (95-97), Thomas (99-01) and Mogilny (03 & 04). They averaged a line of 67-21-38-59 (71 point pace) and averaged 29 goal collaborations with Sundin per season (36.6% of his points were produced with them).

It might not look as sexy as an 80 point winger to player with, but there was some quality offensive talent on those teams.

 

[Giotrapani91]

As president of the Dave Taylor fan club, I'd like to submit his resume.

I wouldn’t mind him getting inducted in this decade.

 

[HF007]

Hossa in ATL was better than alffy at any point

 

[NyQuil]

Hossa in ATL was better than alffy at any point

When he went out in 4 with one assist in the post-season when Alfredsson led the NHL playoffs in goals and points?