2020 Around the League: Offseason Mode

[RobertKron]

Has it been reported what the victim's disibility was?

If I'm not mistaken, they've said that he was ~4 years behind his peers developmentally.

 

[RobertKron]

A lot falls on the parents. If there is a restraining order then you still should want your child to do the right thing which is to apologize face to face. That is something that they should have relayed to their lawyer to let time some time pass but the end goal is still to have their son apologize to the other kid face to face. Have the lawyer try to arrange a meet up with the family.

Did Miller send a letter in place of a face to face apology? As he had a copy typed up on hand.

i have never understood the enjoyment that some get from bullying or putting down another person. Maybe in the heat of the moment or if you yourself have been put down recently that you turn that onto another person.

Joni Meyer-Crothers said the other boy broke down in tears while personally apologizing to her son, yet Miller has never personally apologized, she said, other than the court-mandated letter.
The Coyotes sent The Republic a copy of the letter that Miller claimed to have given to the victim and his family. The family said on Friday they never received the letter.

Arizona Coyotes top draft pick bullied Black kid 4 years ago

 

[vancityluongo]

Yes the mob DID facilitate a whole lot of negative outcomes for this kid.

And they did so because there was a convenient platform for mob "influencers" to contribute their uninformed opinions.

I say uninformed because the psychology between abuser and abusees is incredibly deep and incredibly complex and most definitely can NOT be summarized by a tweet.

Social media is a toxic shithole that has created a culture of false experts.

I have certain accomplishments, I know the whole story because I've read all the online and hearsay stuff from non-mental health professionals reporting of the "facts" therefore what I think matters and you should like what I say and act accordingly.

This type of false expert bullshit results in real revenue outcomes and causes serious psychological harm on the targeted individual. So Miller didn't apologize to the victim. Does anyone know why he didn't? Perhaps Miller was living in an environment that enabled/tolerated this type of abusive behavior? I don't f***ing know and neither does anyone else except for the parties directly involved.

I hate to say this but the longer this witch hunt goes on, the greater the probability of Miller saying f*** all of this bullshit, I'm audi 5000g which is extremely extremely harmful to the societal relationships that Miller is part of and harmful/scarring to society in general.

f*** social media.

Temper your outrage folks.

Edit

Except when talking about the Canucks sham of a front office of course.

Again, I don't disagree with you on how harmful this sort of stuff can be. I read up on this a bit after that female wrestler took her life earlier this year due to online mob style bullying. But that is not what this is. I personally think you're looking at the wrong party to blame in this situation.

The Arizona Coyotes and the University of North Dakota should have asked those questions before they made any decisions. Either you have absolutely no faith in those organizations (in which case, by all means there should be a mob after them), or we should defer to their professional judgment and investigation of the situation.

The mob here may have guided or influenced the decision. But there is no "organization" here leading the charge. There wasn't even anything like a petition afaik. Nobody was holding a gun to the Coyotes head.

To act like there was, takes all accountability (to make a decision, either way) off of the shoulders of the organization and puts it onto an imaginary group. This seems to occur much moreso with organizations that are poor at being held accountable.

For example, there's no "mob" after the Raptors right now regarding the Terence Davis investigation because they've been very clear on their stance regarding this sort of stuff through past actions and put out a timely statement on the issue. For an incident that may result in an adult criminal case. All that's left is to wait and see what happens.

If the Coyotes could point to any sort of diligence that they did at the time of the draft before this came to light recently, they could have very easily just released that and walked the public through why they chose to draft him anyways. They make have taken some further criticism, but generally people defer to authority and grant that the public doesn't have all of the details.

But again, that didn't happen. Instead, they either took the easy route out and just cut the kid to avoid any further questions on their level of diligence to prevent the situation from spiraling into a further PR disaster, or they were complicit in this and didn't actually raise the situation as a red flag so they cut him to bury the situation. That's on the Coyotes!

The way that this is being framed by the "defenders" in this thread is like Miller is getting death threats for a coordinated mob. If that is the case, it should be utterly condemned, and unfortunately I wouldn't be surprised if there is a small segment of people that are doing that. But we need to distinguish that sort of appalling, abhorrent behavior as very clearly different from general stakeholders (ie. fans) mass lobbying the Coyotes to re-examine their values as it relates to potentially employing this person in the future.

It's funny you added that in for your edit because IMO it actually isn't different from what we say about Benning here. The difference is the Canucks are standing by their guy, whereas the Coyotes were either too spineless to stand by theirs, or they just admit that they tried to pull a fast one by not giving this the attention and diligence needed.

 

[Peen]

For what it's worth, I fully expect them to dump Terrence Davis.

That's a top three head office and they've dumped bad character guys over the years.

 

[vancityluongo]

For what it's worth, I fully expect them to dump Terrence Davis.

That's a top three head office and they've dumped bad character guys over the years.

Exactly. I'd bet they do too, but the case is TBD.

And if they don't, that's good enough for me that the investigation took place and they're okay with whatever was found. It doesn't even have to be publicly disclosed.

It is called accountability.

 

[F A N]

Again, I don't disagree with you on how harmful this sort of stuff can be. I read up on this a bit after that female wrestler took her life earlier this year due to online mob style bullying. But that is not what this is. I personally think you're looking at the wrong party to blame in this situation.

The Arizona Coyotes and the University of North Dakota should have asked those questions before they made any decisions. Either you have absolutely no faith in those organizations (in which case, by all means there should be a mob after them), or we should defer to their professional judgment and investigation of the situation.

The mob here may have guided or influenced the decision. But there is no "organization" here leading the charge. There wasn't even anything like a petition afaik. Nobody was holding a gun to the Coyotes head.

To act like there was, takes all accountability (to make a decision, either way) off of the shoulders of the organization and puts it onto an imaginary group. This seems to occur much moreso with organizations that are poor at being held accountable.

For example, there's no "mob" after the Raptors right now regarding the Terence Davis investigation because they've been very clear on their stance regarding this sort of stuff through past actions and put out a timely statement on the issue. For an incident that may result in an adult criminal case. All that's left is to wait and see what happens.

If the Coyotes could point to any sort of diligence that they did at the time of the draft before this came to light recently, they could have very easily just released that and walked the public through why they chose to draft him anyways. They make have taken some further criticism, but generally people defer to authority and grant that the public doesn't have all of the details.

But again, that didn't happen. Instead, they either took the easy route out and just cut the kid to avoid any further questions on their level of diligence to prevent the situation from spiraling into a further PR disaster, or they were complicit in this and didn't actually raise the situation as a red flag so they cut him to bury the situation. That's on the Coyotes!

The way that this is being framed by the "defenders" in this thread is like Miller is getting death threats for a coordinated mob. If that is the case, it should be utterly condemned, and unfortunately I wouldn't be surprised if there is a small segment of people that are doing that. But we need to distinguish that sort of appalling, abhorrent behavior as very clearly different from general stakeholders (ie. fans) mass lobbying the Coyotes to re-examine their values as it relates to potentially employing this person in the future.

It's funny you added that in for your edit because IMO it actually isn't different from what we say about Benning here. The difference is the Canucks are standing by their guy, whereas the Coyotes were either too spineless to stand by theirs, or they just admit that they tried to pull a fast one by not giving this the attention and diligence needed.

Great post. Arizona and UND screwed up and made things worse by their sudden turnaround from their initial statement following the drafting of Miller. UND, especially recruited Miller and enticed him to commit to them around 2 years ago (meaning Miller had even less time to "show remorse"). Miller could have, presumably, gone to another program. The Coyotes, as bad as they looked, actually owed Mller nothing.

It's funny that people just talk about our justice system as if it's100% fair and just. It's not. Our society has constantly talked about the need to make changes. Over the last decade or so, for example, there has been a focus on rehabilitation for those caught with possession of a small amount of drugs vs incarcerating them for years. OJ Simpson was "proven innocent" but I think the majority of people today think he's guilty.

Like you said, if you recruited or drafted Miller knowing his conviction you should have done your due diligence and stick with your decision unless there's new evidence that has been revealed that you couldn't have easily discovered at the time. There were scouts who said that he spoke to Miller and felt he didn't feel any remorse so he was put on the no draft list. If you came away with a different impression then what changed? Nothing except for public pressure backlash that they probably didn't anticipate getting.

 

[RobertKron]

Great post. Arizona and UND screwed up and made things worse by their sudden turnaround from their initial statement following the drafting of Miller. UND, especially recruited Miller and enticed him to commit to them around 2 years ago (meaning Miller had even less time to "show remorse"). Miller could have, presumably, gone to another program. The Coyotes, as bad as they looked, actually owed Mller nothing.

It's funny that people just talk about our justice system as if it's100% fair and just. It's not. Our society has constantly talked about the need to make changes. Over the last decade or so, for example, there has been a focus on rehabilitation for those caught with possession of a small amount of drugs vs incarcerating them for years. OJ Simpson was "proven innocent" but I think the majority of people today think he's guilty.

Like you said, if you recruited or drafted Miller knowing his conviction you should have done your due diligence and stick with your decision unless there's new evidence that has been revealed that you couldn't have easily discovered at the time. There were scouts who said that he spoke to Miller and felt he didn't feel any remorse so he was put on the no draft list. If you came away with a different impression then what changed? Nothing except for public pressure backlash that they probably didn't anticipate getting.

There's also the possibility that there are conversations going on in the background that we can't see. Or maybe it was the letter from the victim's mother where she said that he'd never apologized, continued to taunt the victim two years ago, and gave her perspective on the situation.

This isn't necessarily as simple as this going public and the teams deciding it was bad PR, but yes, it certainly hasn't been handled very astutely.

 

[F A N]

There's also the possibility that there are conversations going on in the background that we can't see. Or maybe it was the letter from the victim's mother where she said that he'd never apologized, continued to taunt the victim two years ago, and gave her perspective on the situation.

This isn't necessarily as simple as this going public and the teams deciding it was bad PR, but yes, it certainly hasn't been handled very astutely.

Umm... Arizona and UND defended their decision to draft/recruit Miller when the story post-draft first broke. Miller committed to UND two years ago. Like they said, they knew about the conviction. They just didn't think to hear from the victim and obviously didn't care.

One wrinkle in all of this is Miller's coach 100% backs Miller. So if all these teams did was call his coach well they got an absolutely beautiful reference. But I also notice that his coach never talked about remorse either.

 

[Hammer79]

Great post. Arizona and UND screwed up and made things worse by their sudden turnaround from their initial statement following the drafting of Miller. UND, especially recruited Miller and enticed him to commit to them around 2 years ago (meaning Miller had even less time to "show remorse"). Miller could have, presumably, gone to another program. The Coyotes, as bad as they looked, actually owed Mller nothing.

It's funny that people just talk about our justice system as if it's100% fair and just. It's not. Our society has constantly talked about the need to make changes. Over the last decade or so, for example, there has been a focus on rehabilitation for those caught with possession of a small amount of drugs vs incarcerating them for years. OJ Simpson was "proven innocent" but I think the majority of people today think he's guilty.

Like you said, if you recruited or drafted Miller knowing his conviction you should have done your due diligence and stick with your decision unless there's new evidence that has been revealed that you couldn't have easily discovered at the time. There were scouts who said that he spoke to Miller and felt he didn't feel any remorse so he was put on the no draft list. If you came away with a different impression then what changed? Nothing except for public pressure backlash that they probably didn't anticipate getting.

OJ wasn't proven innocent. They didn't think there was a strong enough case to convict since DNA technology was in its infancy. There was past racially charged language by Mark Fuhrman, so there was enough 'reasonable doubt' about the validity of the evidence. Today, we may look back on it in a different context, but in 1994 there wasn't a lot of trust in DNA matching technology yet and there was already a level of mistrust against the LAPD. Mix in a racist cop and you have reasonable grounds to find the defendant Not Guilty.

 

[Chairman Maouth]

 

[F A N]

OJ wasn't proven innocent. They didn't think there was a strong enough case to convict since DNA technology was in its infancy. There was past racially charged language by Mark Fuhrman, so there was enough 'reasonable doubt' about the validity of the evidence. Today, we may look back on it in a different context, but in 1994 there wasn't a lot of trust in DNA matching technology yet and there was already a level of mistrust against the LAPD. Mix in a racist cop and you have reasonable grounds to find the defendant Not Guilty.

My point is that he was ultimately acquitted. Similarly those posters who are defending Miller because of the justice system would be making similar arguments - OJ was tried and acquitted but the "mob" led to the victim's family receiving an award of millions of dollars in their civil suit.

 

[RobertKron]

My point is that he was ultimately acquitted. Similarly those posters who are defending Miller because of the justice system would be making similar arguments - OJ was tried and acquitted but the "mob" led to the victim's family receiving an award of millions of dollars in their civil suit.

I don't think the "mob" had as much to do with it as the burden of proof being less difficult for the plaintiff in civil court than the prosecution in a criminal trial.

 

[Hit the post]

I don't think the "mob" had as much to do with it as the burden of proof being less difficult for the plaintiff in civil court than the prosecution in a criminal trial.

The mob doesn't exist according to Hoover.

 

[iloovRMB]

The mob here may have guided or influenced the decision. But there is no "organization" here leading the charge. There wasn't even anything like a petition afaik. Nobody was holding a gun to the Coyotes head.

To act like there was, takes all accountability (to make a decision, either way) off of the shoulders of the organization and puts it onto an imaginary group. This seems to occur much moreso with organizations that are poor at being held accountable.

100% factually incorrect

Hockey Diversity Alliance blasts Arizona Coyotes for drafting player who bullied disabled Black teen - TSN.ca

 

[vancityluongo]

100% factually incorrect

Hockey Diversity Alliance blasts Arizona Coyotes for drafting player who bullied disabled Black teen - TSN.ca

So that's the "mob" ? Lol.

That's like saying HFBoards is behind bot farming because you keep popping back up, despite being banned probably a dozen or so times at this point.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

this is where the use of the term "mob" and what that can imply to some people starts to make me inch away...

which is ironic given that on this continent who usually comes with pitchforks and torches? groups that are the opposite of a diversity alliance.

 

[iloovRMB]

So that's the "mob" ? Lol.

That's like saying HFBoards is behind bot farming because you keep popping back up, despite being banned probably a dozen or so times at this point.

You said "But there is no "organization" here leading the charge."

Then you said "Nobody was holding a gun to the Coyotes head."

Those two claims were 100% false. The HDA absolutely led the charge against Mitchell Miller and they DID hold a gun to the Coyotes' head. Read the statement they put out.

"The Coyotes' drafting of Mitchell Miller - who was convicted of bullying a developmentally disabled, Black classmate, and according to the victim's family has not personally apologized - shows that "zero tolerance" of racism can't be taken for granted in the NHL the NHL and the Coyotes should sign the hda pledge and start practicing what they preach," the HDA statement reads.

"We will not support, partner with or accept support from any organization that has engaged in, promoted or failed to appropriately respond to racist conduct in their organization of any kind (including, without limitation, the proliferation of hate speech, discrimination in the provision of goods, services and facilities and other areas such as employment)."

Then you went on to accuse "defenders" of inventing things that were false and accusing them of framing the situation dishonestly based on your ignorance of the HDA's role in the cancelling of Mitchell Miller. All I wanted to do was to bring that your attention and correct the factual inaccuracy that your entire post was based on.

 

[vancityluongo]

You said "But there is no "organization" here leading the charge."

Then you said "Nobody was holding a gun to the Coyotes head."

Those two claims were 100% false. The HDA absolutely led the charge against Mitchell Miller and they DID hold a gun to the Coyotes' head. Read the statement they put out.



Then you went on to accuse "defenders" of inventing things that were false and accusing them of framing the situation dishonestly based on your ignorance of the HDA's role in the cancelling of Mitchell Miller. All I wanted to do was to bring that your attention and correct the factual inaccuracy that your entire post was based on.

Again, if you're choosing to equate the Hockey Diversity Alliance and their statement as the face of the mob looking to cancel Mitchell Miller, I respectfully disagree. I'd have dug in further but Vadim's comment is apt...

There's quite a difference between an unhinged group of fans who are outraged at every whim (the accusation against everyone who tweeted for Miller to be released) and a group focused on promoting diversity finding the potential racially charged motives of this incident to be troubling. The fact that you find these words:

"We will not support, partner with or accept support from any organization that has engaged in, promoted or failed to appropriately respond to racist conduct in their organization of any kind (including, without limitation, the proliferation of hate speech, discrimination in the provision of goods, services and facilities and other areas such as employment)."

as "holding a gun" to the Coyotes says more about you than it does about the situation lol. Again, if the Coyotes had conducted a proper, thorough investigation, and decided that there was no harm done or that Miller repented for his actions (ie. appropriately responded), they had every right to stand by their player. And no one would have said anything further if they had, because people tend to appeal to authority and would concede that there may be information the public is not privy to. The Coyotes decided their player did not have an appropriate response, and therefore, their course of action was to release him. Show me where the HDA (or literally anyone else) states anything along the lines of "release Mitchell Miller or else". The first part of your quote is just highlighting the incident and connecting it to the fact that the Coyotes haven't signed their pledge.

That you genuinely think it was this statement that made the Coyotes release their highest recent draft pick is just laughable. Maybe you should send an email to the Hockey Diversity Alliance to get you un-permabanned from HF.

 

[F A N]

Well, yes, obviously the US doesn't have this system. This is why this has become an issue in this case.

In a majority of other Western countries, names are withheld for guilty parties. And a majority of juvenile criminal records (usually excluding homicide and major sex offenses) disappear at 18.

For a crime like this at age 14 with no further offenses, it is highly likely it would have been fully sealed at 18 in Canada.

You seem to think that if Miller committed the crime in Canada nobody would know about it. I think that's just naive.

It's clear where you stand on what Miller did.

 

[stampedingviking]

Yeah, I have little sympathy for Miller but I'm appalled at the fact that internet Karens who read an online article and got outraged can retroactively re-try and re-sentence people (especially minors) for crimes committed and handled by the justice system years ago because they've decided they know how the person feels on the inside and they haven't seen enough tears for their liking.

It's the court of public opinion.

far more important nowadays than real courts.

 

[stampedingviking]

He's probably going to lose his NCAA scholarship as well. Absolutely he's being re-tried in the court of public opinion.

Should he have been punished harder at the time? Absolutely.

But nobody will ever convince me that it's in the best interests of society for internet mobs to target people years after the fact based on assumptions of how bad they feel about it. And I don't believe that crimes committed at age 12-14 should hang over a person for life. Juveniles are tried and treated differently in basically every justice system in the world for this exact reason. If he had done this at age 18 just before the draft, my opinion would be far different. But I think it's a fundamental thing that kids have a chance to turn their life around after being convicted of a crime.

There's also this fascinating societal double standard happening here where I think everyone agrees that people who have been convicted of a crime and served their sentence should have the right to go on and live a normal life with normal opportunities afterward if they stay out of trouble. Unless they succeed too much, in which case BURN THEM.

Like, I hate having to defend this little shit. But there's a huge difference between 'it's nice to see a crappy person suffer' and 'is it right that society is operating in a way that is making this crappy person suffer?'

I'd like this post if I was allowed.

 

[M2Beezy]

I'd like this post if I was allowed.

Post within the rules then pal

 

[F A N]

Yeah, I have little sympathy for Miller but I'm appalled at the fact that internet Karens who read an online article and got outraged can retroactively re-try and re-sentence people (especially minors) for crimes committed and handled by the justice system years ago because they've decided they know how the person feels on the inside and they haven't seen enough tears for their liking.

I'd like this post if I was allowed.

MS' post assumes that there was no outrage with the sentencing (the judge probably has his/her hands tied with the sentencing). I read that the community was outraged at the time of the sentencing as many thought it was too light. It's not really a re-try or re-sentencing when most people who learns of the crimes committed would think that there should be more than a slap of the wrist.

 

[Peen]

McDavid and Draisatl on defense is funny

 

[BB06]

West continues to get weaker. Seguin and Bishop out for 5 months ........