2020 Around the League: Offseason Mode

[canuckking1]

Why do fans want less games? I would be happy with 40 but happier with 60. We have one job as hockey fans and that is to watch games. More games means less days without games. Game days are better than non game days.

I think by condensing a bunch of games into a small time frame you reduce the quality of the product. I saw a lot of games in the playoffs where teams just looked too tired to bring their best.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I think by condensing a bunch of games into a small time frame you reduce the quality of the product. I saw a lot of games in the playoffs where teams just looked too tired to bring their best.

Also condensing the schedule will inevitably lead to more injuries.

 

[Hansen]

Anton Lundell should never have fallen out of the top 5 and he's gonna remind the league about it for a long time

 

[StreetHawk]

Anton Lundell should never have fallen out of the top 5 and he's gonna remind the league about it for a long time

From the reports I read on him main criticisms for him were his skating and whether his offense would translate to the NHL.

I think he’ll end up like Bo, outperforming his criticisms to bring the offense to the NHL level. Think he will turn out to be a very good 2C who plays all situations.

 

[Hansen]

From the reports I read on him main criticisms for him were his skating and whether his offense would translate to the NHL.

I think he’ll end up like Bo, outperforming his criticisms to bring the offense to the NHL level. Think he will turn out to be a very good 2C who plays all situations.

He’s tracking to have an Elias Pettersson level d+1 in Liiga and wearing the C tonight (usually A) as a 19 year old. I think he’s going to be a very strong two way 1C

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Based on McDavid's personality I doubt he never becomes at least good defensively. Crosby sucked at faceoffs when he entered the league, now he's one of the better guys. These are just how guys like that operate. They hate being bad at stuff and eventually they get good at it.

i do think though that it also depends on who the team surrounds them with. sometimes you can work as hard as anyone on your own, but if you don't have the right assistant coaches or veterans to work with you on how to see the ice and show you the little things and teach you their tricks, there's only so far you can go.

tbh i think this is what's holding horvat back as an all round player. and boeser, man he really wants to be a mark stone-type player but he just flat out has no fundamentals at all.

 

[Hit the post]

That goaltending tho . . .

Reminds me of THE most lethal scoring line in the NHL (WCE) backed up by..Cloutier.

 

[Hit the post]

i do think though that it also depends on who the team surrounds them with. sometimes you can work as hard as anyone on your own, but if you don't have the right assistant coaches or veterans to work with you on how to see the ice and show you the little things and teach you their tricks, there's only so far you can go.

tbh i think this is what's holding horvat back as an all round player. and boeser, man he really wants to be a mark stone-type player but he just flat out has no fundamentals at all.

Horvat has to take the tough defensive assignments because there isn't anybody better on the roster to handle that role. Much like when Linden was forced to play center for a good chunk of his prime years even though he was a winger.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Horvat has to take the tough defensive assignments because there isn't anybody better on the roster to handle that role. Much like when Linden was forced to play center for a good chunk of his prime years even though he was a winger.

agree. but i also think he has the tools to be sean couturier, or a reasonable facsimile. but other than manny tutoring him on faceoffs, he just never had anyone teach him all the stuff couturier learned over the years.

 

[wetcoast]

He’s tracking to have an Elias Pettersson level d+1 in Liiga and wearing the C tonight (usually A) as a 19 year old. I think he’s going to be a very strong two way 1C

Serious question here.

Are you stat watching or actually seen clips of him play?

He was seen as a dependable 2 way center but perhaps not the dynamic producer that others ahead of him were.

The fact that Rossi and Perfetti dropped tells us what a strong draft this was, Lundell was drafted right about where he was ranked.

 

[wetcoast]

agree. but i also think he has the tools to be sean couturier, or a reasonable facsimile. but other than manny tutoring him on faceoffs, he just never had anyone teach him all the stuff couturier learned over the years.

Perhaps but Horvat lacks the playmaking skills to be a true top level 1C in the NHL IMO.

Good thing we have a guy for that spot as Horvat is an elite #2.

 

[Hansen]

Serious question here.

Are you stat watching or actually seen clips of him play?

He was seen as a dependable 2 way center but perhaps not the dynamic producer that others ahead of him were.

The fact that Rossi and Perfetti dropped tells us what a strong draft this was, Lundell was drafted right about where he was ranked.

I am mostly stat watching lately but I was incredibly high on him and have seen a ton of his footage over the past year. I had him at 5 after Rossi/Raymond and I think he might be better than Stutzle as Stutzle may be better on wing in the NHL. His skating to me doesn't seem to be as big of an issue as its spoken about and he's brilliant and plays with a bit of an edge

Frankly I don't understand how Sanderson went at 5 in any way, not that Im overly familiar with the player. I don't like Drysdale in the top 10 even really, I feel like he just happens to be one of the top dmen in the class. Perfetti falling made sense since he really reminds me of Hodgson with the stride and legit has funky skating. I cant believe how Rossi and Lundell fell though thats insane.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Perhaps but Horvat lacks the playmaking skills to be a true top level 1C in the NHL IMO.

Good thing we have a guy for that spot as Horvat is an elite #2.

i just think bo has untapped selke upside, or at least he has the ability to be one of the top handful of two-way centers.

 

[canuckking1]

Give Horvat normal usage along with competent linemates and you'd see far better results.


An agent had this to say about Vancouver off-season moves.

“Vancouver. They lost a bunch of players and essentially added one player, a real good player. Their top two lines were dependent on Tyler Toffoli taking up that space on the first line and they don’t have anyone to play there, which means you’re either taking someone off the first line which is important to make that team go or you’re turning Bo Horvat into a third-line center who has to eat up minutes against the other team’s top line without having offensive opportunities.”

I have to agree here that Horvat is being forced into a role that's not suited for him and we're not seeing the best Horvat because of it.

 

[vancityluongo]

I'd actually argue Bo is consistently miscast as a two-way player because he's a heavy-bodied Canadian-born captain of a Canadian team. If he was ten pounds leaner and born in Finland, there's suddenly not much to his game that suggests "Couturier" IMO.

As much as he's carried this reputation since being drafted as a "two-way" guy (which was really just a shot at his offensive upside more than anything), Horvat's never really been prolific at the defensive aspects of the game (ie. penalty killing, back checking, etc.), aside from faceoffs.

If we had a Coleman/Kadri-like center to slot in behind Pettersson, I'd love to see Bo on the wing to play a Taylor Hall-style, play driving offensive game. But we don't, so he'll have to continue to babysitting Tanner Pearson and Jake Virtanen while taking on the hardest minutes on the team.

 

[wetcoast]

I am mostly stat watching lately but I was incredibly high on him and have seen a ton of his footage over the past year. I had him at 5 after Rossi/Raymond and I think he might be better than Stutzle as Stutzle may be better on wing in the NHL. His skating to me doesn't seem to be as big of an issue as its spoken about and he's brilliant and plays with a bit of an edge

Like I said I thought that Lundell was a safe pick but his ceiling was less than others and I think he went in the right range.

Stutzle is closer to the number 2 guy Byfield than Lundell is too Stuzle but time will tell.

Frankly I don't understand how Sanderson went at 5 in any way, not that Im overly familiar with the player.

Sanderson had a really good run before his season ended and that stayed with scouts plain and simple.

Time will also tell if that was a sign of things to come or just some good luck.

I don't like Drysdale in the top 10 even really, I feel like he just happens to be one of the top dmen in the class.

Drysdale has his issues I guess but his skillset was certainly worthy of a top 10 pick.

Perfetti falling made sense since he really reminds me of Hodgson with the stride and legit has funky skating. I cant believe how Rossi and Lundell fell though thats insane.

Cody Hodgson was a very exciting prospect whose career went off the rails due to an undiagnosed and very rare diseases but Perfetti projects as a much better offensive force.

Rossi fell (but perhaps not really given his size) and Lundell wasn't projected as a top 5 pick due to his lack of elite skill and ceiling although most everyone agreed that he very good in alot of areas.

His D+1 production doesn't change that draft day fact.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I'd actually argue Bo is consistently miscast as a two-way player because he's a heavy-bodied Canadian-born captain of a Canadian team. If he was ten pounds leaner and born in Finland, there's suddenly not much to his game that suggests "Couturier" IMO.

As much as he's carried this reputation since being drafted as a "two-way" guy (which was really just a shot at his offensive upside more than anything), Horvat's never really been prolific at the defensive aspects of the game (ie. penalty killing, back checking, etc.), aside from faceoffs.

If we had a Coleman/Kadri-like center to slot in behind Pettersson, I'd love to see Bo on the wing to play a Taylor Hall-style, play driving offensive game. But we don't, so he'll have to continue to babysitting Tanner Pearson and Jake Virtanen while taking on the hardest minutes on the team.

also that he has the face of a truck driver. whereas if he looked like russ courtnall...

idk, i think the ability is there though. i'm not arguing that he isn't taking on responsibilities he's not best suited for, i'm just saying that with his powerful skating and strength and the natural dog in his game (which now is mostly on the offensive end), plus his ability to learn fine details (see: the massive improvement in his faceoff abilities), you could turn him into the two-way beast the team clearly wants him to be, the way bob gainey and guy carbonneau turned modano from a speedy floater into an 80 point selke-calibre cup winning center. or the way kesler turned from shutdown kesler into 40 goal kesler, only in the reverse order.

but maybe it's just that truck driving face...


(and as an aside, aren't most finnish players the tough as nails defensive players i want bo to be?)

 

[iloovRMB]

I'd actually argue Bo is consistently miscast as a two-way player because he's a heavy-bodied Canadian-born captain of a Canadian team. If he was ten pounds leaner and born in Finland, there's suddenly not much to his game that suggests "Couturier" IMO.

As much as he's carried this reputation since being drafted as a "two-way" guy (which was really just a shot at his offensive upside more than anything), Horvat's never really been prolific at the defensive aspects of the game (ie. penalty killing, back checking, etc.), aside from faceoffs.

If we had a Coleman/Kadri-like center to slot in behind Pettersson, I'd love to see Bo on the wing to play a Taylor Hall-style, play driving offensive game. But we don't, so he'll have to continue to babysitting Tanner Pearson and Jake Virtanen while taking on the hardest minutes on the team.

Bo isn't miscast lol his reputation wasn't a "two-way" guy since being drafted it was way before that when he was the shutdown guy on the London Knights for most of his time there. He modelled his game around Patrice Bergeron for god's sake, he cast himself into that role. He wasn't forced into it.

Bo isn't an elite skill guy, his playmaking isn't up to par, he knows that, he plays a simple north south style, and he knows that he can make a huge impact (and probably his best impact) on the team by being a 2 way matchup center and he does that job really well. Those guys don't grow on trees either - you realize how few teams ever have a Ryan Kesler type guy in the 2C spot? It's exceedingly rare. It's much easier to find a top line winger than an elite 2-way 2c.

Kadri and Coleman would be downgrades in that spot over Bo and most players we could realistically get would also be downgrades in that spot.

Bo does need better linemates though - no argument from me there.

 

[iloovRMB]

re: Lundell, he just had a 5 point game. Before that he was trending like Mikael Granlund. Very skeptical that the Liiga is as good as the SHL so I'd cool it with the EP comparisons for now. Lundell and Puljujarvi had the exact same production in their draft year so take that as a cautionary example not to get too far ahead of ourselves here.

 

[canuckking1]

re: Lundell, he just had a 5 point game. Before that he was trending like Mikael Granlund. Very skeptical that the Liiga is as good as the SHL so I'd cool it with the EP comparisons for now. Lundell and Puljujarvi had the exact same production in their draft year so take that as a cautionary example not to get too far ahead of ourselves here.

A better production comparison would be Aho who was PPG in Liiga before entering the NHL.

 

[vancityluongo]

also that he has the face of a truck driver. whereas if he looked like russ courtnall...

idk, i think the ability is there though. i'm not arguing that he isn't taking on responsibilities he's not best suited for, i'm just saying that with his powerful skating and strength and the natural dog in his game (which now is mostly on the offensive end), plus his ability to learn fine details (see: the massive improvement in his faceoff abilities), you could turn him into the two-way beast the team clearly wants him to be, the way bob gainey and guy carbonneau turned modano from a speedy floater into an 80 point selke-calibre cup winning center. or the way kesler turned from shutdown kesler into 40 goal kesler, only in the reverse order.

but maybe it's just that truck driving face...


(and as an aside, aren't most finnish players the tough as nails defensive players i want bo to be?)

Yeah, fair enough.

The Fin comment was moreso that I'm guessing that no one would suggest Anton Lundell (a player who I know nothing about lol) should be molded into a defensive Kesler type. I really do think it is that Bo "seems" like a guy who could be molded that way vs. idk, a guy like Jake who actually has a lot of the tools required to be a good defensive player (blazing fast, big, heavy), but doesn't "feel" like that kind of player because he has a "dumb" and "lazy floater" vibe to him; even though that vibe is probably as detrimental to being an elite offensive player as it is to being an effective penalty killer or a reliable middle-6 "neutral zone dump and chase" guy.

I'd rather see what Bo could do if he spent all those faceoff hours improving his shot. Reverse-reverse Kesler's not a bad comp in that sense.

Bo isn't miscast lol his reputation wasn't a "two-way" guy since being drafted it was way before that when he was the shutdown guy on the London Knights for most of his time there. He modelled his game around Patrice Bergeron for god's sake, he cast himself into that role. He wasn't forced into it.

Bo isn't an elite skill guy, his playmaking isn't up to par, he knows that, he plays a simple north south style, and he knows that he can make a huge impact (and probably his best impact) on the team by being a 2 way matchup center and he does that job really well. Those guys don't grow on trees either - you realize how few teams ever have a Ryan Kesler type guy in the 2C spot? It's exceedingly rare. It's much easier to find a top line winger than an elite 2-way 2c.

Kadri and Coleman would be downgrades in that spot over Bo and most players we could realistically get would also be downgrades in that spot.

Bo does need better linemates though - no argument from me there.

Not really blaming anyone for it - again, I think it comes down to most Canadian players want to have a two-way game and be applauded by Don Cherry for their backchecking, etc. Bo is a very typical product of that system, both in personality and in the way he (like you said - on his own accord) tries to play. Ergo, everyone labels him as a two-way centre. I just question if it's a maximization of his individual skillset.

We're in complete agreement on what his skillset is and his work ethic. If he could will himself into a two-way Couturier-like center that would be phenomenal. And I think he has the work ethic to possibly do it; like vadim said, he probably just needs the linemates and some guidance.

I'm just asking; would he be better suited to play a Taylor Hall game? It's fun to hate on Hall, but the dude is two years removed from winning a Hart. That's a very valuable player. A 40-40-80 winger with Bo's size and strength on the second line is also exceedingly rare. Kadri and Coleman are absolutely downgrades, but they're not as hard to find. Elite defensive centers get moved all the time and are generally probably the most underrated players in the sport from the market perspective. Aside from a miscast, bad-luck-ridden Taylor Hall and a free agent Artemi Panarin, 80 point wingers don't. And I wouldn't have that matchup center on the second line; would put a guy with better offensive instincts like Gaudette in that role instead. If you're set on the positional value of centers vs wingers; keep Bo in the middle to utilize his faceoff strength, put him with an offensively inclined, playmaking winger or two, and tell him to score 40. I think that's a better bet than asking him to put up 60 points while matching against MacKinnon, McDavid/Draisaitl, etc.

I'd also argue in some ways that Kesler had the perfect storm to be the player he was. Let's not forget that a lot of those 40 goals came from being the trigger man for two of the best playmakers in history, and that his most common wingers (Raymond, Higgins, Burrows, Hansen) were all decent passers and very complementary to his game. I think we're more likely to find a 50 point playmaking center/winger to pair with Bo for cheap (someone like Mikael Granlund or a better Kyle Turris) vs two defensively capable wingers to form that super shutdown line. Maybe you just need one, since I did argue Jake could probably be that guy... idk.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Bo was pretty good in the shut down role the previous two years. The team was less likely to be scored on when he was on the ice. This year was a down year in that regard. He had the worst ES goal rate on the team. Although, the save% when he was on the ice was down over 2%, so that might be part of it.

JT Miller would actually be a really good fit to take Horvat's spot. If Horvat struggles defensively again next year, switchin Horvat and Miller would be something to look at.

 

[iloovRMB]

Yeah, fair enough.

The Fin comment was moreso that I'm guessing that no one would suggest Anton Lundell (a player who I know nothing about lol) should be molded into a defensive Kesler type. I really do think it is that Bo "seems" like a guy who could be molded that way vs. idk, a guy like Jake who actually has a lot of the tools required to be a good defensive player (blazing fast, big, heavy), but doesn't "feel" like that kind of player because he has a "dumb" and "lazy floater" vibe to him; even though that vibe is probably as detrimental to being an elite offensive player as it is to being an effective penalty killer or a reliable middle-6 "neutral zone dump and chase" guy.

I'd rather see what Bo could do if he spent all those faceoff hours improving his shot. Reverse-reverse Kesler's not a bad comp in that sense.



Not really blaming anyone for it - again, I think it comes down to most Canadian players want to have a two-way game and be applauded by Don Cherry for their backchecking, etc. Bo is a very typical product of that system, both in personality and in the way he (like you said - on his own accord) tries to play. Ergo, everyone labels him as a two-way centre. I just question if it's a maximization of his individual skillset.

We're in complete agreement on what his skillset is and his work ethic. If he could will himself into a two-way Couturier-like center that would be phenomenal. And I think he has the work ethic to possibly do it; like vadim said, he probably just needs the linemates and some guidance.

I'm just asking; would he be better suited to play a Taylor Hall game? It's fun to hate on Hall, but the dude is two years removed from winning a Hart. That's a very valuable player. A 40-40-80 winger with Bo's size and strength on the second line is also exceedingly rare. Kadri and Coleman are absolutely downgrades, but they're not as hard to find. Elite defensive centers get moved all the time and are generally probably the most underrated players in the sport from the market perspective. Aside from a miscast, bad-luck-ridden Taylor Hall and a free agent Artemi Panarin, 80 point wingers don't. And I wouldn't have that matchup center on the second line; would put a guy with better offensive instincts like Gaudette in that role instead. If you're set on the positional value of centers vs wingers; keep Bo in the middle to utilize his faceoff strength, put him with an offensively inclined, playmaking winger or two, and tell him to score 40. I think that's a better bet than asking him to put up 60 points while matching against MacKinnon, McDavid/Draisaitl, etc.

I'd also argue in some ways that Kesler had the perfect storm to be the player he was. Let's not forget that a lot of those 40 goals came from being the trigger man for two of the best playmakers in history, and that his most common wingers (Raymond, Higgins, Burrows, Hansen) were all decent passers and very complementary to his game. I think we're more likely to find a 50 point playmaking center/winger to pair with Bo for cheap (someone like Mikael Granlund or a better Kyle Turris) vs two defensively capable wingers to form that super shutdown line. Maybe you just need one, since I did argue Jake could probably be that guy... idk.

The idea of Horvat on the wing with Pettersson is an intriguing one. Bo definitely has the physical tools, he'd be incredibly tough to contain with his speed and strength. I'd also love to see what Petey could do with 2 bonafide powerforwards flanking him.

There are definitely tradeoffs though. You'd be swapping one of Miller/Boeser out and both of them are better than Bo at maintaining possession in the offensive zone and better than him going east to west. Bo is definitely an upgrade on Boeser's speed and size up there and Bo is more successful at driving to the net. On the other hand Bo doesn't have an elite level shot like Boeser does. It wouldn't be smart to swap Bo with Miller at all, Miller is just better in almost every way and should stay on the 1st line.

The biggest downside to this is it would ravage our center depth. If Miller and Bo aren't centers then it's just Petey, Gaudette, Beagle, Sutter, and the Coleman/Kadriesque player you propose we target. I hope you're not suggesting we actually target Kadri though, that guy's an f'n joke. The pipeline is pretty much tapped out of centers right now so I doubt Green would even try it.

 

[Peen]

Kadri was the furthest thing from a joke last season. He owned.

 

[canuckking1]

Bo was pretty good in the shut down role the previous two years. The team was less likely to be scored on when he was on the ice. This year was a down year in that regard. He had the worst ES goal rate on the team. Although, the save% when he was on the ice was down over 2%, so that might be part of it.

JT Miller would actually be a really good fit to take Horvat's spot. If Horvat struggles defensively again next year, switchin Horvat and Miller would be something to look at.

It really was. He looked like a new player in the playoffs. Wonder if something was nagging? I expect him to be much better this year. Ditto with Boeser.