Speculation: 2020-2021 Sharks Roster Discussion Part 7

[Juxtaposer]

That is simply not true. Balcers, Leonard, and a few of our prospects have top line potential. Yes, it's a guarantee that Tatar gets something. He's producing at Meier's level right now and he's a rental. It may only be a second but even if it were nothing, why would you care about riding out this season with him? Short and long term cap relief is beneficial even for a rebuilding club. If he gets hurt then he's riding out this year and not in any kid's way. Your concern there is unwarranted. Byron is trash and carries that hit but doesn't get in anyone's way. He gets bought out at season's end or put on the taxi squad at a reduced rate if he's injured during the buyout period which is unlikely. If Boughner isn't playing Vlasic over those guys to any real extent why believe it'd be different for Chiarot? Even so, his contract expires after next season. Even if he is worse than Vlasic, that buyout is 1.83 mil and 833k. All of that is easier to get out from under than Vlasic and Meier is pretty replaceable.

I strongly, strongly disagree, unless you wanna make the “everyone has top line potential because you can’t predict the future, Joe Pavelski was rated a 4.5F prospect by HF boards back in 2005” argument, which would be awful silly. The only guy with top line potential in our system is Bordeleau, and he’s no guarantee. I like Leonard a ton, but high-end 2nd liner is where he almost certainly tops out, and if Balcers ends up a consistent middle-six scorer we should count our blessings.

The Sharks’ problem is that we have a glut of middle-six players and no top liners. Couture and Hertl can arguably be considered top liners but both those guys are past their primes and Couture is on the wrong side of 30.

Meier: high-end 2nd line winger(unless he gets back to his 2019 self)
Labanc: 2nd line winger
Leonard: 2nd line winger
Kane: 2nd line winger
Donato: middle-six winger
Balcers: hopefully a 3rd line winger
Blichfield: hopefully a 3rd line winger
Chekovich: a 2nd liner if we’re lucky
Dahlen: a 3rd liner if we’re lucky

And this would be fine if we had a superstar #1C like Joe Thornton, but we don’t. Meier is our best shot at a legit 1st liner, even if I don’t think he’ll get back to that level. That isn’t to say that I’m not open to trading him for the right return, but to say he’s “replaceable” isn’t true.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I strongly, strongly disagree, unless you wanna make the “everyone has top line potential because you can’t predict the future, Joe Pavelski was rated a 4.5F prospect by HF boards back in 2005” argument, which would be awful silly. The only guy with top line potential in our system is Bordeleau, and he’s no guarantee. I like Leonard a ton, but high-end 2nd liner is where he almost certainly tops out, and if Balcers ends up a consistent middle-six scorer we should count our blessings.

The Sharks’ problem is that we have a glut of middle-six players and no top liners. Couture and Hertl can arguably be considered top liners but both those guys are past their primes and Couture is on the wrong side of 30.

Meier: high-end 2nd line winger(unless he gets back to his 2019 self)
Labanc: 2nd line winger
Leonard: 2nd line winger
Kane: 2nd line winger
Donato: middle-six winger
Balcers: hopefully a 3rd line winger
Blichfield: hopefully a 3rd line winger
Chekovich: a 2nd liner if we’re lucky
Dahlen: a 3rd liner if we’re lucky

And this would be fine if we had a superstar #1C like Joe Thornton, but we don’t. Meier is our best shot at a legit 1st liner, even if I don’t think he’ll get back to that level. That isn’t to say that I’m not open to trading him for the right return, but to say he’s “replaceable” isn’t true.

I think your view of what is a top line winger is much too high. The bar to hit top line winger is lower than every other position, imo. It's also potential which is going to be highly subjective. I view a lot of people as potential even if the chances of them of getting there are slim and I'm perfectly okay with being wrong on them most of the time. That is typical for this sort of discussion. Do I believe any of them will be elite? No but I don't think Meier will either due to his erratic nature. But him being the best shot doesn't mean he's not replaceable. Non-elite wingers are absolutely replaceable. I think Meier is probably the most overrated player on our team. He's proving to be unreliable for many reasons.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

I strongly, strongly disagree, unless you wanna make the “everyone has top line potential because you can’t predict the future, Joe Pavelski was rated a 4.5F prospect by HF boards back in 2005” argument, which would be awful silly. The only guy with top line potential in our system is Bordeleau, and he’s no guarantee. I like Leonard a ton, but high-end 2nd liner is where he almost certainly tops out, and if Balcers ends up a consistent middle-six scorer we should count our blessings.

The Sharks’ problem is that we have a glut of middle-six players and no top liners. Couture and Hertl can arguably be considered top liners but both those guys are past their primes and Couture is on the wrong side of 30.

Meier: high-end 2nd line winger(unless he gets back to his 2019 self)
Labanc: 2nd line winger
Leonard: 2nd line winger
Kane: 2nd line winger
Donato: middle-six winger
Balcers: hopefully a 3rd line winger
Blichfield: hopefully a 3rd line winger
Chekovich: a 2nd liner if we’re lucky
Dahlen: a 3rd liner if we’re lucky

And this would be fine if we had a superstar #1C like Joe Thornton, but we don’t. Meier is our best shot at a legit 1st liner, even if I don’t think he’ll get back to that level. That isn’t to say that I’m not open to trading him for the right return, but to say he’s “replaceable” isn’t true.

Kane has scored at basically a 30 goal pace or better since he's been a Shark. Also for at least a season prior to that as well. He's scoring at a 70 point pace this season. He's a 1st line winger on almost every team in the league. Not elite but certainly 1st line. Other than that I agree with the rest.

 

[Groo]

I think as a basis for a deal, it is acceptable. I simply think that regardless of whether we're trying to rebuild or trying to contend, this is the type of deal the Sharks need to make before next season starts. Rebuilding version of the Sharks needs to move at least one defenseman, especially one providing no value in any sort of way, and also move a winger where the team has an abundance of valuable players.



Not with this trade alone but it opens up valuable cap space to address glaring roster issues. The Sharks need a legitimate 3C, which could be Bordeleau, but also one that makes it easier to shift Couture to the wing. I get that this isn't a typical rebuild maneuver but I don't believe the team needs a full-on rebuild. Even if it did, you can't wait to open up cap space. If they land an elite player in the 2022 draft, you have a three year window from there to truly get the most out of that deal. You can't wait to deal with bad contracts until then. You have to make deals where you can to prepare for that potential. I do understand wanting to trade Meier for a full value futures based package. I just don't think this team is that far off but it does take a few moves to get there.



Why wouldn't you move Vlasic alone for that? Tatar gets flipped at the deadline. Chiarot is off the books after next season if he isn't chosen in the expansion draft. Byron has two years after this and is a substantially better buyout option than Vlasic. Why would you hang on to Vlasic when he's a much worse contract and a more negative overall player? That doesn't make any sense. The point isn't to get any value back. It's to gain needed flexibility by using the chips we have as an organizational strength. If this team wants to rebuild after such a deal, they open more space for themselves to make a deal like this but for something that's more of a fit or need than what they're moving out. Meier is the realistic sweetener needed to get a team to take on an NMC player before the expansion draft especially someone as bad as Vlasic with that bad of a contract. We either pay to get rid of it through trade or through a buyout and a 10 year payout seems like the worse of these two options.

Open up cap space to address glaring roster issues? Since when did we become the FA go to destination?

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Open up cap space to address glaring roster issues? Since when did we become the FA go to destination?

You only address glaring roster issues through FA?

 

[Groo]

You only address glaring roster issues through FA?

Lets see. Trades? You just traded off one of our best assets for a couple of scrubs. That's not a way to increase talent/fill needs
The Draft? That trade doesn't help in that regard either. Who else would you have the Sharks trade and what do you expect in return?
So what other means are there for the Sharks to fill in holes in the roster.
Seems you're just creating larger ones

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Lets see. Trades? You just traded off one of our best assets for a couple of scrubs. That's not a way to increase talent/fill needs
The Draft? That trade doesn't help in that regard either. Who else would you have the Sharks trade and what do you expect in return?
So what other means are there for the Sharks to fill in holes in the roster.
Seems you're just creating larger ones

The team gets better just by removing Vlasic from the team. Plain and simple. They will get a trade asset from renting Tatar to a playoff team. They can use that asset to acquire the plethora of options that are available in the offseason. We literally just got Ryan Donato doing something like this and yes it does work. Having another 4.6 million at a minimum that helps us get out of a long term horrific contract is kind of a big deal. You increase the resources available to acquire things you need like say a center, an actual RHD for the 3rd pairing, or a goalie.

Plus, given what the organization has, I think the team is no worse dropping Meier and Vlasic from the team even if they got nothing in return. Vlasic is that bad of an anchor that he at the very least offsets whatever positives Meier currently brings. But what Meier currently brings is pretty garden variety for a 2nd line winger.

 

[Groo]

The team gets better just by removing Vlasic from the team. Plain and simple. They will get a trade asset from renting Tatar to a playoff team. They can use that asset to acquire the plethora of options that are available in the offseason. We literally just got Ryan Donato doing something like this and yes it does work. Having another 4.6 million at a minimum that helps us get out of a long term horrific contract is kind of a big deal. You increase the resources available to acquire things you need like say a center, an actual RHD for the 3rd pairing, or a goalie.

Plus, given what the organization has, I think the team is no worse dropping Meier and Vlasic from the team even if they got nothing in return. Vlasic is that bad of an anchor that he at the very least offsets whatever positives Meier currently brings. But what Meier currently brings is pretty garden variety for a 2nd line winger.

Woe Ryan Donato...That's hardly much a sales job ya got going
We get Tatar just to move him off again.
A plethora of options that never seem to exist for us before
I see a lot of hopeful thinking and I still see it as a very poor use of a valuable asset/player

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Woe Ryan Donato...That's hardly much a sales job ya got going
We get Tatar just to move him off again.
A plethora of options that never seem to exist for us before
I see a lot of hopeful thinking and I still see it as a very poor use of a valuable asset/player

Ryan Donato was just the latest. I mean, how many trades and signings do the Sharks need to have under Doug Wilson for you to admit reality that these are viable options with cap space? I don't know why you seem to think that these plethora of options never seemed to exist before. They did and there's always options in the trade market during the off-season. I think the idea that Meier is this hugely valuable asset with 2nd line production, a 6 mil price tag, with a 10 mil QO is hopeful thinking while undervaluing what cap space actually is in this era.

 

[Groo]

Ryan Donato was just the latest. I mean, how many trades and signings do the Sharks need to have under Doug Wilson for you to admit reality that these are viable options with cap space? I don't know why you seem to think that these plethora of options never seemed to exist before. They did and there's always options in the trade market during the off-season. I think the idea that Meier is this hugely valuable asset with 2nd line production, a 6 mil price tag, with a 10 mil QO is hopeful thinking while undervaluing what cap space actually is in this era.

The problems the Sharks have starts with Doug Wilson.
So after trading Timo for less than scraps then who do you trade to fill in the top 6 forward roles or top 4 D?
Cause I can't believe we'll attract to many nor should we trade top end talent to help fill in bottom 6 rolls.
Even with Hertl and Timo back, the Sharks are barely icing a NHL caliber squad as it is

 

[Pinkfloyd]

The problems the Sharks have starts with Doug Wilson.
So after trading Timo for less than scraps then who do you trade to fill in the top 6 forward roles or top 4 D?
Cause I can't believe we'll attract to many nor should we trade top end talent to help fill in bottom 6 rolls.
Even with Hertl and Timo back, the Sharks are barely icing a NHL caliber squad as it is

We legitimately don't need to trade for anyone to fill the roles left behind by Meier and Vlasic. Vlasic is already being replaced by Ferraro and Knyzhov. They will still have Kane, Labanc, Balcers, Donato, and Leonard with numerous guys outside of the Sharks looking for a spot. The Sharks are icing what is barely an NHL caliber squad because they don't have legitimately elite talent up front, have poor defense, and poor goaltending. Cooch should either be on the wing or centering the 2nd line. Hertl can't be counted on to anchor a top line either but he's pretty much in the same boat as Couture.

 

[Groo]

We legitimately don't need to trade for anyone to fill the roles left behind by Meier and Vlasic. Vlasic is already being replaced by Ferraro and Knyzhov. They will still have Kane, Labanc, Balcers, Donato, and Leonard with numerous guys outside of the Sharks looking for a spot. The Sharks are icing what is barely an NHL caliber squad because they don't have legitimately elite talent up front, have poor defense, and poor goaltending. Cooch should either be on the wing or centering the 2nd line. Hertl can't be counted on to anchor a top line either but he's pretty much in the same boat as Couture.

None of those guys replaces Timo. We need another top 6 RW
We're icing a piss poor euro league team.
The problem with our talent besides goalie is the utter lack of a bottom 6/depth players and a D corps that can't defend.
LaBanc, Balcers, Donato and Leonard are nothing special and are mostly just filling

 

[Herschel]

None of those guys replaces Timo. We need another top 6 RW
We're icing a piss poor euro league team.
The problem with our talent besides goalie is the utter lack of a bottom 6/depth players and a D corps that can't defend.
LaBanc, Balcers, Donato and Leonard are nothing special and are mostly just filling

IMO, The Sharks issues in order
- Team Defence
- Goaltending
- Centre depth
Yes, elite talent is an issue but that simply addresses one of the above issues.

The more I look at the roster and think about the moves/non-moves DW has made I believe this is simply a look at see season for the Sharks. They are evaluating what the kids bring to the table and to see if it is enough to retool this offseason OR if they try and land a top 3 pick (or two) in the 2022 & 2023 drafts.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

None of those guys replaces Timo. We need another top 6 RW
We're icing a piss poor euro league team.
The problem with our talent besides goalie is the utter lack of a bottom 6/depth players and a D corps that can't defend.
LaBanc, Balcers, Donato and Leonard are nothing special and are mostly just filling

Well before Meier was out of the lineup with an injury, he was put on the 3rd line because he was getting outplayed by Kane, Labanc, Balcers, and Donato. I can agree to an extent that the bottom six is its own issue but that mostly centers around the fact that Gambrell and Marleau aren't good centers and we have no real options there. But Couture and Hertl have had their own issues against the competition they face. Their centers up and down the lineup are a problem. Their wingers aren't even when Meier is out of the lineup.

 

[Gecklund]

Apparently Debrusk is a healthy scratch. Add him to the list of disgruntled young players that I would love to buy low on.

Current list:
Sam Bennett
Julius Honka
Jake Debrusk

 

[Groo]

Apparently Debrusk is a healthy scratch. Add him to the list of disgruntled young players that I would love to buy low on.

Current list:
Sam Bennett
Julius Honka
Jake Debrusk

Good luck with Debrusk. Boston fans seem to think he's the weakest link yet also believe he's the key piece to replacing him with a much better player. An odd paradox to be sure

 

[Gecklund]

Good luck with Debrusk. Boston fans seem to think he's the weakest link yet also believe he's the key piece to replacing him with a much better player. An odd paradox to be sure

Best way to describe his value to the Bruins is how we value Labanc.

 

[Groo]

Best way to describe his value to the Bruins is how we value Labanc.

Not sure I'd agree with that. Go take a look at the Bruins board trade thread and you'll see Debruck mentioned in nearly all the posts. Haven't seen that here with Lebanc.

 

[Gecklund]

Not sure I'd agree with that. Go take a look at the Bruins board trade thread and you'll see Debruck mentioned in nearly all the posts. Haven't seen that here with Lebanc.

That’s also because the Bruins actually have depth. If a few of wingers hit, I could see us trying to trade Labanc to upgrade our team.

 

[Groo]

That’s also because the Bruins actually have depth. If a few of wingers hit, I could see us trying to trade Labanc to upgrade our team.

Sure. Lebanc is hardly untouchable
You'll get no argument from me on who has the better talent in their farm system

 

[Pinkfloyd]

That’s also because the Bruins actually have depth. If a few of wingers hit, I could see us trying to trade Labanc to upgrade our team.

The other difference is that Labanc is actually producing by comparison to DeBrusk. So Labanc isn't going to be a true buy-low trade option for other teams. The only it would be a buy low is if DW is interested in tagging a bad contract with him. Otherwise, you're paying full price for him. DeBrusk is not in such a boat. If Boston moves DeBrusk, they're probably not getting much out of it like Calgary isn't going to get much out of Bennett. Neither of these guys carry the value needed to dump a bad contract.

 

[Gecklund]

The other difference is that Labanc is actually producing by comparison to DeBrusk. So Labanc isn't going to be a true buy-low trade option for other teams. The only it would be a buy low is if DW is interested in tagging a bad contract with him. Otherwise, you're paying full price for him. DeBrusk is not in such a boat. If Boston moves DeBrusk, they're probably not getting much out of it like Calgary isn't going to get much out of Bennett. Neither of these guys carry the value needed to dump a bad contract.

I’m not saying swap Labanc for any of these guys. I’m saying that’s probably how Bruins fans see him (or at least the closest comparable on our team).

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I’m not saying swap Labanc for any of these guys. I’m saying that’s probably how Bruins fans see him (or at least the closest comparable on our team).

I guess it depends on the context. I can see them thinking he's similar to Labanc in one way and thinking he's like Donato in another way. Problem is that he's producing like Gambrell.