What efforts? The only thing I'm changing about the lineup is taking Cirelli out if the top 6 and putting Kucherov in, who wouldn't make that swap? Johnson can't play a bottom 6 role, he would be easiest to hide alongside our two best players. Cirelli has been trash and is suited for a shutdown role. He can do that on the 4th line and his linemates have enough offensive abilities that they can be productive offensively as well. When a guy has 1 secondary assist in the last 20 games demoting him to the 4th line isn't showing an agenda.
Speculation: 2020-2021 General Lightning Discussion - Defending Champions Edition: Part 2
- Thread starter CupsOverCash
- Start date
What efforts? The only thing I'm changing about the lineup is taking Cirelli out if the top 6 and putting Kucherov in, who wouldn't make that swap? Johnson can't play a bottom 6 role, he would be easiest to hide alongside our two best players. Cirelli has been trash and is suited for a shutdown role. He can do that on the 4th line and his linemates have enough offensive abilities that they can be productive offensively as well. When a guy has 1 secondary assist in the last 20 games demoting him to the 4th line isn't showing an agenda.
Johnson would be used to his best abilities playing in that spot. He's a goal scorer and his two linemates are great playmakers. You put him in the bottom 6 and he could easily be exposed. He's less likely to be exposed playing in the top 6.
JTBF81
Registered User
Tampa doesn't give up on players after one bad half season. The player you think is so amazing, Tyler Johnson, is now on his 2nd straight bad season, so yeah, he's gone. If Cirelli struggles again next year there may be some reason for actual concern.
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Byrddog
Lifer
- Nov 23, 2007
- 7,482
- 826
Your concept of TAmpa not giving up on players is not quite accurate. There are a number of guys they have given up on. Marchessault, Verhahe, Druion, Ingram all for different reasons and different levels of success. There have been a number they have given up on for the right reasons as well ABB will be the next one. Cirelli has not been good for a calendar year now. He has not put up more than 40 points but once and has been the full time 2C for three years now. Just that is reason enough to give JBB reason to shed the salary if there is a opportunity. Now one can argue that 4.8 mil avg was too much to give the guy and I would agree. They paid that on potential that they thought he would produce THIS year, he has not. Both CAP issues and real money that will be spent on this back loaded contract will create pressure to move him in the off season. This is not an uncommon thing in the league and sometimes teams hold on to a guy too long before trying to move them(Johnson) just for example. Cirelli could fall into this category as soon as next season leaving his last year and most expensive year in real money in 22-23. If he fails next season his CAP hit and real dollars to be spent make him undesirable to other teams. Now if we are ok paying him that for a 3C which is what he really is then fine. But not having a movement clause makes him prime meat to get under the CAP for the start of next season. Point, Cernak and Segi are the only others with no movement clause that could impact CAP by moving this off season and none of us would want to consider that. The idea that we can expose one high salary even Mac would not solve the CAP delima. And Moving one of the MNTC's will prove difficult and costly having to add to Johnson or losing Killers offense. The concept of replacing them with the kids is not a good idea look at the hype ABB had before this chance that he has failed....... Colton was hot but has colled off recently, he may be a potential 2C or 3C. There is the option to even move Stammer back to C to replace Cirelli or give Gourde a chance he has sure earned it. And breaking up the Gourde line is not an excuse. All three on the line will continue to perform or actually Gourde and Coleman will. Heck Moving Gourde and Coleman up with Stammer on the 2nd could answer the whole situation it would put Point, Kuch and Palat on the 1st backed up with a solid 2nd line of proven veterans. 3rd could be Colton, Goodrow, Joseph and the 4th Stephens, Maroon and whoever.
I get it there are alot of Cirelli fans, and I still think he could be great on the 3C but we can not afford to pay the 3C 5 mil like we are Gourde and Cirelli. That position is 2 to 2.5 tops probably less on this team due to what we pay the top 6. We do not have kids that can just step in to the top 6 on ELC's and keep production at the level the current veterans could. Due to injury we have been forced to try that and it has been ugly. Now will this happen probably not. And many will disagree on moving Cirelli but my opinion is that its the smart thing to do with the current situation. If we can get Seattle to take Mac and find a home for Cirelli that takes 11 mil off then we have to find Johnson a home maybe with a sweetheart deal for Seattle that they trade for him for a pick on the condition we expose MAc. That would subtract 16 mil leaving about 6 mil to resign those we need to and get a real back up goalie. This would extend the window for Cups also. And what I would do if I were GM. This would put Foote in the top 4 a chance we have to take at some point anyway give us the chance to resign Goodrow and Coleman.
Sky04
Registered User
- Jan 8, 2009
- 29,110
- 18,205
Why would we re-sign Coleman? Why would he re-sign here? This guy needs to cash in now or never and we're not in a position to sign him to term and anything above what he makes right now.
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Byrddog
Lifer
- Nov 23, 2007
- 7,482
- 826
He is not going to get mega millions and if he is offered a fair contract why not play for a team that can win multiple cups. As I said in previous posts 3rd liners get 2 to 2.5 mil if he can live with that the numbers can be worked out. I mean what team is goping to have CAP to give him 3Mil where he would want to play? Detroit who is on a 5 year plan, NJ or the Kings or the Sens none of them make sense. Not to mention the weather and tax situation.
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LTIR Trickery
Plz stop pucks
March wanted guaranteed ice time on a top line and Florida offered it. They didn't give up on him.
Verhaeghe was in the same boat.
Drouin wanted out.
Ingram was a very unique case.
LTIR Trickery
Plz stop pucks
There isn't anyone ready to take over his role in the minors, as much as people want to see Raddysh/ABB/whoever.
That third line is our silver bullet right now.
The Gongshow
Fire JBB
I think we keep Goodrow and not Coleman, tbh.
Plug Joseph or Colton on the 3rd line next year in Colemans place
Plug Joseph or Colton on the 3rd line next year in Colemans place
Byrddog
Lifer
- Nov 23, 2007
- 7,482
- 826
I indicated each for one reason or another other than Druion none brought back value to the team. A 7th for Ingram and two walked When we dang well knew they needed more minutes we did not trade them even for scraps. The Cirelli situation is different too hes was signed as a top6 guy who has NEVER performed as a top 6 guy again only one year above 40 points. He has had Stammer and Killer there two years just by osmosis he should be a 50 point pace guy. So what are the options shop him before his value drops more or ride it out with maybe a 50% chance he rebounds????? When we need CAP room just for Kuch since we just had to give Cirelli almost 5 mil. Its stupid. We can not hold on to all of them, if we had any inclination of a chance the CAP was going to increase in two years things might be different. People have feelings it might but nothing from the league because they do not know the fallout yet of this season and next.
The goal is position the team for a cup window for as long as possible and pay the players who need contracts again like Point and Cernak and Sergi in two years. Now is the time to offload while you can get some return because it is sure Cirelli will not be willing yo take less than the 4.8 hit he now has heck his final year pays him over 7 mil in real dollars.
JTBF81
Registered User
Again, good thing you have no say over any decisions the team makes, or we'd be in the run for a lottery pick real quick. They're not giving up on ABB either after this year, and sorry, older guys like Johnson, Killorn and Palat who are going to cost too much on their next deals to a cap strapped team are likely gone as well in the next couple of years. The best path forward remains biying out Johnson or retaining 1-1.25 on him and trading him elsewhere, then adding something to have Seattle take McD. The team can then re-sign Savard, and keep one of Killorn, Palat or Coleman.
Keeping McD gets them nothing but another year of the same mediocre right side D after Cernak, and still requires the loss of the same forwards. Until the 3 picks moved for Savard, I thought they'd have to keep McD as well, but now it's a much easier move to have Seattle take him while re-signing Savard and a Kulikov or someone for 3LD. This will also gree up.much needed cap to re-sign Cirelli, Serg and Cernak down the road as well.
Cirelli hasn't been the 2C for 3 years, realistically more last year and this year. He was fine until the playoffs last year, and even had a nice start to this season, so it's basically been one half season's worth of games he's been struggling. What he brings in all other facets is why he was paid a bit more than most thought I'd guess. Unless JBB was offered some insane return for him, he's not likely going anywhere. He's also 23, not 30+ already, which is a real factor as well.
Tampa will have a solid lineup next year with the moves I think they can make. They can run Palat-Point-Kuch on line 1, ABB-Cirelli-Stamkos on 2, Gourde-Colton-Goodrow, and Maroon-Stephens-Joseph, with a sound, balanced defense of Hedman, Serg and someone like Kulikov on the left, with Cernak, Savard and Foote on the right. This would also allow for a couple depth guys potentially like Schenn, Thomas, Claesson maybe. I don't see Foote ready as a top 4 regular yet next year, and Rutta is only slightly less made of glass than Stamkos, so can't rely on him for more than half the season either. If they prefer Coleman then the lines would shift a bit, as either Palat or Cirelli would be gone, but in either case, ABB and potentially one more of the top Syracuse guys will be factors next season.
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JTBF81
Registered User
Someone is going to offer Coleman considerably more than 2-2.5. If Tampa wants to keep him it will cost them in the 3.5 range, maybe 3 if they're very lucky.
Stammertime91
TBL: TEAM OF THE CENTURY
I know it's an odd situation to have 3 stellar left sided defenseman, but I said it prior to this season and I'll say it again, losing McD does not make this team better. Sergachev is great but we've seen what happens when McD is out of the lineup, along with Cernak. It's not a pretty sight.
Hedman - Cernak
McD - Foote
Serg - Schenn/whoever
Cernak is looking more and more like Hedmans partner going forward. Guy is young and a rock. Because of his handedness, he might be our second most important defenseman, simply because he's a righty and this organization doesn't seem to land those too often.
I understand the cap issues, but losing McD hurts this team the moment he's gone. Would rather lose Cirelli if im being honest. Gourde is capable, move Colton to 3C. Jettisoning McD when he's not even slowing down is dumb. His game is aging well and he's critical back there. One of the best trades we've ever made imo.
Hedman - Cernak
McD - Foote
Serg - Schenn/whoever
Cernak is looking more and more like Hedmans partner going forward. Guy is young and a rock. Because of his handedness, he might be our second most important defenseman, simply because he's a righty and this organization doesn't seem to land those too often.
I understand the cap issues, but losing McD hurts this team the moment he's gone. Would rather lose Cirelli if im being honest. Gourde is capable, move Colton to 3C. Jettisoning McD when he's not even slowing down is dumb. His game is aging well and he's critical back there. One of the best trades we've ever made imo.
- Jan 23, 2017
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Yeah Coleman is definitely not a guy I'd lose sleep over if we were to lose him. If I'm honest I'd probably keep Goodrow over him, even on equal cap hits. The fact that Coleman's most probably going to get more makes the decision between the two easier.
I think it comes down to what $$$ they want obviously, and what we do with other players. But yours is probably a good guess. I like Goodrow but he definitely does not have anywhere near the offensive ability that Coleman does. We need value deals one way or another.
Teams will find a way to give him money. He could sign short term with a terrible team knowing he will move at the TDL.
He's going to be on the wrong side of 30 before he knows it. He's gonna try to make a few bucks, and he should. Teams will line up for him.
Byrddog
Lifer
- Nov 23, 2007
- 7,482
- 826
And right back at you it is good you are not the GM either. (1) Buying out Johnson will cost 9.33 mil in real dollars and have a yearly cap hit of 1.55 mil thru 26-27 a total savings of 4.6 in real money until you have to pay a replacement thru 26-27 even at league min your looking at 3.5 mil so a difference in real money of 1.1 mil as a owner at look at the GM and ask if he is crazy, then tell him to find somewhere to trade him even if you have to add picks or players. Why a ELC is not going to be as productive for a couple years if there is one in the system which we have no proof of only HOPE. (2) How are you going to resign Savard????? His last contract was 4.25 mil and while he should not expect a raise he is still going to get 3.5 to 4 mil x 4 or 5 from someone. (3) Why worry what Killorn and Palat are going to cost on there next contract unless you think that two players past age 30 will need a raise. As I see it Palat would get 3.5 mil tops and Killorn 3 mil on this team if they want more they can become a UFA in years where the CAP has not increased and the knowledge of what other UFA's got last summer and what they will get the next two years will not be dramatically different. (4) I agree with you about sweetening the deal with Seattle to take Mac, this is needed to just get under for starting day, you want to fiddle with Johnson I want to move Cirelli a player that some teams will take a chance on and the difference in CAP his 4.8 to Johnsons 3.5 or so savings on a buyout. 4 Cirelli took the 2C spot mid way thru the last full season so hes been in that slot 2.5 seasons where I said 3 years which is technically right. This was the year after The Stamkos leg break if my 60 year old memory is correct and the time when musical chairs were still being moved after the breakup of the triplets during that time to cover for Stammer. Somehow Johnson was still productive then but I agree with you that he needs to be moved out but not the buyout route. (5) I agree on your 1st line going forward but the 2nd will kill Stamkos production ABB is just not going to make it his skating is poor, his shot not much better. Cirelli will benefit from a Stammer on his line but he is not going to be the 50 point 2nd line center that Palat and Stammer need. Your planning on that 2nd line to be a shutdown line yet again going against most all NHL teams who do this with the 3rd line and on top of that it takes offensive zone time away from Stamkos who is still top 3 in scoring on this team. Not a good thought.Your 3rd line has two centers Colton and Gourde both natural positions. If you want to see what this does look at our 1st PP unit right now with Point trying to play the right side its been poor and Point is twice the player Gourde and Colton are. (6) The 4th line you have is acceptable all three are where they should be.(7) The D will end up being Heddy, Sergi, Cernak, Foot probably Schenn and a bottom basement UFA on the 3rd pair. The 7th guy a ELC that will rotate in and out according to who we play.
As to Coleman yes he deserves a raise but 2.5 is top end on what the 30 year old should get, yes he has preformed but unless he is in the top6 on a team I do not see 3 mil or more maybe someone offers him that Chances are no since the 5 teams with CAP are rebuilding with little use for a 30 year old guy. Now if you want to move Palat and move Coleman up at 3 to 3.5 mil ok but if hes staying on the 3rd line 2.5 has to be the budget and again playing on a team that has Cup chance good weather and good taxes I can see him taking that 700k raise and being perfectly happy especially if they give him 3 years.
The Gongshow
Fire JBB
We'll have Kuch back next year to pick up the offense we were missing.
Goodrow brings more grit. Also a great PK and Coop plays him in big faceoffs/in our end zone draws and final 2 minutes
JTBF81
Registered User
It's quite easy to re-sign Savard if McD is gone, and JBB didn't toss 3 draft picks away for 3 months of Savard. He saw the weakness on the right side and knew Tampa needed another real top 4 guy on the right, and not just f luck r this season. If Tampa can get Savard at 4x4 they should, and quickly. Foote will likely improve, but he's not ready for a top 4 role yet.
If Vinik is willing to spend the actual cash, then buying out Johnson is quite the feasible option. Only one of the years is the cap hit above 1.55, and with the cap rising in the next year or two, it can work without much difficulty. The better route is to retain 1 to 1 to 1.25 and trade him to one of the 20 teams he must submit a list for, but a buy out is still an option. You assume that a young elc type couldn't replace him, but your bias against any KC's getting a real shot in favor of slight overpaid depth guys has been apparent for ages on here. Tampa will need a couple elc guys to make the jump in the next few years ifvthey want to keep the window open. I choose to believe that the team has done its job well and at least a couple of them will be capable.
Tampa can support a d-corp of Hedman, Serg, Savard, Cernak and Foote as the main pieces, then find a 1.5 type(or less) asnthe 3LD and have Schenn/ThomasClaesson types as additional depth. Foote is not ready for heavy top 4 minutes yet, and keeping Savard gives him a little more time while still playing on the big club. Yes, keeping Savard means losing one additional F between Palat, Killorn, and Coleman, but the alternative would be no McD, no Savard, a sieve of a right side defense but hey, one more depth F stays!
Tampa will have a tough choice to make among those depth F's. Do they want best trade value and move Palat now, since he only has a year left, or do they roll the dice he stays and move Killorn when his trade value will also likely be at a high. Maybe they move both to keep Coleman, but that seems the 3rd option, with trading Cirelli and one of Killorn/Palat the least likely option. Until we know this decision and whether Savard is willing to re-sign, it does make things tricky. If Savard says no then they likely keep McD, although that could be a problem 2-3 years down the road cap wise. Tampa will always have a strong offense and goaltending with this core, but they shouldn't sacrifice more young players that haven't reached their full potential yet to keep depth guys or sacrifice balance on defense.
bov
Registered User
- Nov 13, 2010
- 7,196
- 3,320
I think Coleman is a tad more redundant than Goodrow. Price factors in for sure, but I'd rather keep Goodrow at this point. Coleman is a good player but has been a bit underwhelming offensively, and I think there are enough hard working/hustle types of players (whether in the system or via free agency) where we'll be fine without Coleman, unless he wants to sign for something very reasonable. We have some money coming off the books regardless, so from a selfish standpoint, I'd be happy ro have both of them back.
I'm assuming Goodrow will be cheaper so that factors into things, but I'd put him ahead of Coleman in terms of who to re-sign at this point. No disrespect to Coleman.
I'm assuming Goodrow will be cheaper so that factors into things, but I'd put him ahead of Coleman in terms of who to re-sign at this point. No disrespect to Coleman.
Sky04
Registered User
- Jan 8, 2009
- 29,110
- 18,205
Coleman has 30 points for 1.8m, that's excellent production. Problem is his cost will be almost triple that next year. He's producing as much as Killorn and Gourde and higher than Johnson and Cirelli. As a UFA he can easily get 3.5-4.5m even with a flat cap. Not even knocking him, I think he needs to take the biggest deal he can get this year for his own benefit.
Agreed. I'm happy it worked out for him here. But now somebody's going to give him the money he deserves. 28 of those 30 points have come at even strength, good for 3rd on the team.
The Gongshow
Fire JBB
The reason I keep saying we're not keeping Coleman is just due to the money. He'll get a decent contract somewhere else. We literally can't afford him, we can't afford anyone over a 1-2mil deal at this point
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