2019-2020 St. Louis Blues - Defending the Cup - Part 3: The Prelude to Playoff Positioning

[MissouriMook]

What position would you put him in? He was with skilled guys, grinders, and vets and struggled with all. Not talking about production even, but puck battles, getting puck out of zone, getting to teammates in place to do damage, etc.. this isn’t on Berube. Kyrou needs to up his game.

I'm not saying Kyrou doesn't have work to do, but I would say the biggest hole in his game right now is confidence. How is that going to get better when he's getting healthy scratched or benched for long stretches when he is dressed? Maybe I'm seeing too much of what I want to see, but I see him getting areas of the ice where I want more of our forwards to get, and he's not getting the puck. He's not Tarasenko in that he's not going to be able to create space for himself, with or without the puck, he has to find space. And when he does, his line mates need to find him. I honestly don't think he's a good fit on a line with 10-17 because I think those two guys are looking for him to be like Tarasenko and he's not. I can probably count 8-10 times in the last few games he's spent with those two where he found a soft spot in the D and 10 or 17 cycled the puck back to the point instead of looking for a passing lane to him when he's uncovered.

He's going to lose board battles. He's going to make bad decisions with the puck. He's going to defer too much at times and hog the puck too much at others. If you really want to get the kid acclimated to the league, you have to let him work these things out. Six minutes of ice time isn't going to get that done.

The bottom line for me is that I think Berube has no place in his system for the things Kyrou is best at. Chief doesn't want him flashing out of the zone with the puck creating issues for the other team's D off the rush, he wants to come up the ice as a five man unit. He doesn't want his forwards to look for quiet space so they can pounce on a centering pass like Ovi and Laine, he wants his forwards to cycle and grind. Look at the play from last night where the Jets chased him all over the O-zone for 10-15 seconds and wore themselves out. What happened next? He dished to Blais, a tired Jets hooks him and we've got a PP. And then? Blais gets credit for drawing a penalty and Kyrou gets sent to the doghouse.

Look, I like winning as much as the next guy, but I'm concerned about this team becoming too predictable and, therefore, easier to stop than they were in their six month run last year. Part of how you counter that is introducing different elements to your offense (and your defense) instead of doing the same things over and over. I think Kyrou can do that for this team (especially if the coach has the stomach to pair him with someone like Thomas, who he can play off of and vice versa) but the coach has to shorten the leash a little bit and deal with some mistakes or you're just going to ruin the kid. And if the appetite isn't there, get something for him while he still has value rather than tanking his value like we did with Fabbri.

 

[Renard]

I have some good news.

I was listening to ESPN late this morning and Stalter and Rivers were talking about the good and bad of last night's game.

I'll spare you the bad. The good they mentioned was Colton Parayko's newfound desire to get involved with the offense. Skating with the puck. Eager to shoot.

They also said the team was practicing the 5 on 3 power play ( this morning, I guess) and they guy set up to shoot the puck was Parayko, the way we used to do it with MacInnis.

We have been waiting for this since early in Parayko's rookie season. I'd just about given up on it.

 

[Brian39]

I'm not saying Kyrou doesn't have work to do, but I would say the biggest hole in his game right now is confidence. How is that going to get better when he's getting healthy scratched or benched for long stretches when he is dressed? Maybe I'm seeing too much of what I want to see, but I see him getting areas of the ice where I want more of our forwards to get, and he's not getting the puck. He's not Tarasenko in that he's not going to be able to create space for himself, with or without the puck, he has to find space. And when he does, his line mates need to find him. I honestly don't think he's a good fit on a line with 10-17 because I think those two guys are looking for him to be like Tarasenko and he's not. I can probably count 8-10 times in the last few games he's spent with those two where he found a soft spot in the D and 10 or 17 cycled the puck back to the point instead of looking for a passing lane to him when he's uncovered.

He's going to lose board battles. He's going to make bad decisions with the puck. He's going to defer too much at times and hog the puck too much at others. If you really want to get the kid acclimated to the league, you have to let him work these things out. Six minutes of ice time isn't going to get that done.

The bottom line for me is that I think Berube has no place in his system for the things Kyrou is best at. Chief doesn't want him flashing out of the zone with the puck creating issues for the other team's D off the rush, he wants to come up the ice as a five man unit. He doesn't want his forwards to look for quiet space so they can pounce on a centering pass like Ovi and Laine, he wants his forwards to cycle and grind. Look at the play from last night where the Jets chased him all over the O-zone for 10-15 seconds and wore themselves out. What happened next? He dished to Blais, a tired Jets hooks him and we've got a PP. And then? Blais gets credit for drawing a penalty and Kyrou gets sent to the doghouse.

Look, I like winning as much as the next guy, but I'm concerned about this team becoming too predictable and, therefore, easier to stop than they were in their six month run last year. Part of how you counter that is introducing different elements to your offense (and your defense) instead of doing the same things over and over. I think Kyrou can do that for this team (especially if the coach has the stomach to pair him with someone like Thomas, who he can play off of and vice versa) but the coach has to shorten the leash a little bit and deal with some mistakes or you're just going to ruin the kid. And if the appetite isn't there, get something for him while he still has value rather than tanking his value like we did with Fabbri.

He got benched last night, but let's not pretend Berube has been consistently giving him 6 minutes a night.

He's only gotten less than 10 minutes in 4 of his 17 games this year. Other than last night, the other instances saw him play 9:29, 9:48 and 9:54. In his last 8 games, he has been averaging 11:15 a night. He has 0 points in that stretch and he has been given numerous chances to play with skilled guys. In most of those chances, his line has been mediocre with him on it and then immediately has a spark when Berube puts someone else in Kyrou's spot.

I just don't get this narrative that he isn't getting a fair shake. We should absolutely not be altering a Cup-winning system for a 21 year old forward who is unable to create space for himself and is somewhere between bad and mediocre defensively. It is 100% up to him to work on fitting his strengths into the existing system and his linemates. We're in the midst of a slump as a team. Even if the staff wanted to give him an extra long leash to figure it out, now is absolutely not the time.

 

[MissouriMook]

He got benched last night, but let's not pretend Berube has been consistently giving him 6 minutes a night.

He's only gotten less than 10 minutes in 4 of his 17 games this year. Other than last night, the other instances saw him play 9:29, 9:48 and 9:54. In his last 8 games, he has been averaging 11:15 a night. He has 0 points in that stretch and he has been given numerous chances to play with skilled guys. In most of those chances, his line has been mediocre with him on it and then immediately has a spark when Berube puts someone else in Kyrou's spot.

I just don't get this narrative that he isn't getting a fair shake. We should absolutely not be altering a Cup-winning system for a 21 year old forward who is unable to create space for himself and is somewhere between bad and mediocre defensively. It is 100% up to him to work on fitting his strengths into the existing system and his linemates. We're in the midst of a slump as a team. Even if the staff wanted to give him an extra long leash to figure it out, now is absolutely not the time.

I won't argue the ice time figures you quoted and the fact that last night was more of an aberration, but I will challenge the idea that "play(ing him) with skilled guys" is the best thing for his development. Playing someone with complimentary players would be far more helpful. Put him with someone who is going to find him when he's open - he's been dangerous (even if it's not showing up yet in the box score) when he finds the soft areas in the D and actually gets the puck. He's getting open lately, but no one is getting him the puck. If he has to do his own heavy lifting to get the puck, chances are he's not going to have time and space to do anything with it. Again, he's not wired like Tarasenko.

Here is the thing I keep getting back to. Last year was a magical run, the best season this franchise has ever had, and flags fly forever. But let's not kid ourselves about the fact that part of the recipe for success last season (i.e. - everyone playing grind it out hockey) had been tried many times over the last several years here with far more tragic results. This is a league of change, and if you want to keep winning, you have to keep trying to find new ways to do it. Teams that don't adapt and stay ahead of the curve get left behind. Will last season be the only Cup we see here while Berube is the HC? Who knows. But if he thinks he can get the job done year after year without changing anything in his system or how we expects guys to play, I think it could be.

Where I'm going with all of this is our organizational strategy. We've drafted skilled guys like Thomas and Kyrou, presumably because we like the way they play the game, and we think we'd like them to play for the Blues. Great. But why, then, would you take guys that have been successful playing one way and then ask them to change once they get to the NHL? If you were staffing a metal shop, you wouldn't be recruiting a bunch of art school graduates, you'd be looking for people who can weld and grind. So why are we drafting artful players and asking them to grind? Either start drafting guys that are great at playing the style you want to play or start allowing the skilled guys you draft to play the way they play best, within the basic framework of team structure. Drafting one set of skills while demanding something entirely different from the people you draft doesn't work in hockey anymore than it works in any other endeavor.

/rant

 

[Blueston]

I won't argue the ice time figures you quoted and the fact that last night was more of an aberration, but I will challenge the idea that "play(ing him) with skilled guys" is the best thing for his development. Playing someone with complimentary players would be far more helpful. Put him with someone who is going to find him when he's open - he's been dangerous (even if it's not showing up yet in the box score) when he finds the soft areas in the D and actually gets the puck. He's getting open lately, but no one is getting him the puck. If he has to do his own heavy lifting to get the puck, chances are he's not going to have time and space to do anything with it. Again, he's not wired like Tarasenko.

Here is the thing I keep getting back to. Last year was a magical run, the best season this franchise has ever had, and flags fly forever. But let's not kid ourselves about the fact that part of the recipe for success last season (i.e. - everyone playing grind it out hockey) had been tried many times over the last several years here with far more tragic results. This is a league of change, and if you want to keep winning, you have to keep trying to find new ways to do it. Teams that don't adapt and stay ahead of the curve get left behind. Will last season be the only Cup we see here while Berube is the HC? Who knows. But if he thinks he can get the job done year after year without changing anything in his system or how we expects guys to play, I think it could be.

Where I'm going with all of this is our organizational strategy. We've drafted skilled guys like Thomas and Kyrou, presumably because we like the way they play the game, and we think we'd like them to play for the Blues. Great. But why, then, would you take guys that have been successful playing one way and then ask them to change once they get to the NHL? If you were staffing a metal shop, you wouldn't be recruiting a bunch of art school graduates, you'd be looking for people who can weld and grind. So why are we drafting artful players and asking them to grind? Either start drafting guys that are great at playing the style you want to play or start allowing the skilled guys you draft to play the way they play best, within the basic framework of team structure. Drafting one set of skills while demanding something entirely different from the people you draft doesn't work in hockey anymore than it works in any other endeavor.

/rant

Guys like Perron, Schwartz, and even Thomas have all thrived under Berube. None are what I would call grinders. Kyrou needs to master the details and he can be an effective player for us. How many times did he fail to get puck out of defensive zone last night?

 

[Ranksu]

Maybe we could swap back TT and trade Kyrou för him. He's Chief type of player. Lanky tall forward who somethimes look good when has possession and can occasionally score.

 

[Xerloris]

Sometimes it's not about skill or confidence. The thing I have not seen from Kyrou is the ability to be relentless on the forecheck. He needs to use his speed not for skill but for hounding the ever living **** out of the other team deep in their end.

 

[shpongle falls]

I'd give Chief the benefit of the doubt here...Kyrou has all the tools I'm sure he'll figure it out eventually.

 

[BlueDream]

I wouldn't trade Kyrou right now. I think we just saw with Fabbri that we shouldn't give up on a young, fast, skilled player too quickly again. It wouldn't take long for him to go to another team, put up some points, and make us regret it. I just don't see any player on the market that is a must-get for him. Sure it'd be cool if we added a guy like Toffoli or something but we can easily do that without Kyrou being involved.

I'm gonna throw out an example of what this reminds me of and I know it might be a bit extreme but it's exactly what this conversation sounds like: Tyler Seguin.

I'm not saying I ever expect Kyrou to be on his level, but the talk about "this kid doesn't fit our system" is word for word exactly what Boston said about Seguin and there's literally videos of their front office doing that lol. They were saying that about a 21-year old kid... not ironically, the exact same age as Kyrou. Go figure.

I'm just saying, it's pretty normal for young players like that to have to learn the NHL style of game. It takes time. We should be in no position to rush him and in my opinion there's no reason to panic.

 

[The Note]

Jordan Kyrou is 21 and has played 33 NHL games. 17 this year. Is anyone surprised he’s not a finished product?

 

[Renard]

I'm sure the coaching staff can see that Kyrou isn't ready for regular duty in the NHL. But the injuries to Tarasenko and Blais left the team in need of offense.

The coaches threw Kyrou in the deep end of the pool, hoping he could learn on the job before the trade deadline. But it hasn't worked out.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kyrou was traded at the deadline. But that would sure leave us short of prospects at forward.

 

[Blueston]

I wouldn't trade Kyrou right now. I think we just saw with Fabbri that we shouldn't give up on a young, fast, skilled player too quickly again. It wouldn't take long for him to go to another team, put up some points, and make us regret it. I just don't see any player on the market that is a must-get for him. Sure it'd be cool if we added a guy like Toffoli or something but we can easily do that without Kyrou being involved.

I'm gonna throw out an example of what this reminds me of and I know it might be a bit extreme but it's exactly what this conversation sounds like: Tyler Seguin.

I'm not saying I ever expect Kyrou to be on his level, but the talk about "this kid doesn't fit our system" is word for word exactly what Boston said about Seguin and there's literally videos of their front office doing that lol. They were saying that about a 21-year old kid... not ironically, the exact same age as Kyrou. Go figure.

I'm just saying, it's pretty normal for young players like that to have to learn the NHL style of game. It takes time. We should be in no position to rush him and in my opinion there's no reason to panic.

This is a bit disingenous. Seguin was Boston's leading scorer at 20 and traded after this 3rd season after already establishing himself as highly productive player. While trading him was clearly dumb, it wasn't because he was at a place like Kyrou. It was because he was young and immature and all that comes with it. It would be more akin to if Blues decided Thomas didn't fully buy in and dealt him, not a still fringe player like Kyrou is at this point.

 

[Ranksu]

Jordan Kyrou is 21 and has played 33 NHL games. 17 this year. Is anyone surprised he’s not a finished product?

But our coach saying publicly about those. Eh, idk, I just don't like it.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

But our coach saying publicly about those. Eh, idk, I just don't like it.

What was wrong with what Berube said? The quote I saw was basically a plain statement that confirmed what we all see, Kyrou hasn’t learned how to play the NHL game yet. He’s too weak on the boards and loses possession too much. Defensive game is lacking.

I could have easily imagined an identical comment for Thomas at the beginning of last season. It doesn’t mean anything terrible for Kyrou. He just needs to keep working and be coach able.

 

[Shwabeal]

What was wrong with what Berube said? The quote I saw was basically a plain statement that confirmed what we all see, Kyrou hasn’t learned how to play the NHL game yet. He’s too weak on the boards and loses possession too much. Defensive game is lacking.

I could have easily imagined an identical comment for Thomas at the beginning of last season. It doesn’t mean anything terrible for Kyrou. He just needs to keep working and be coach able.

It seems like people think that a critique of a player's game to the media is the only way its being handled by the coach. Do people really think that those exact same critiques haven't been conveyed to Kyrou by the coaching staff, either previously, or in a sit down with him after the game?

Like you said, Berube is just pointing out what everyone can see. I'm sure Kyrou has been told what is expected of him and areas they'd like to him improve in. It's amazing how a pretty innocent comment about a player's game has somehow turned into "oh my god, we should really sell high on him before he loses all his value!"

 

[Dbrownss]

Imo the biggest issue with Kyrou is Armstrong telling him to find a house. I know staying in Stl isn't the worst thing to happen to him but riding pine isnt helping. Going back to San Antonio would be best....even if it makes them look foolish

 

[Blueston]

Imo the biggest issue with Kyrou is Armstrong telling him to find a house. I know staying in Stl isn't the worst thing to happen to him but riding pine isnt helping. Going back to San Antonio would be best....even if it makes them look foolish

Yeah, Army may have jumped the gun on that one.

 

[Ranksu]

What was wrong with what Berube said? The quote I saw was basically a plain statement that confirmed what we all see, Kyrou hasn’t learned how to play the NHL game yet. He’s too weak on the boards and loses possession too much. Defensive game is lacking.

I could have easily imagined an identical comment for Thomas at the beginning of last season. It doesn’t mean anything terrible for Kyrou. He just needs to keep working and be coach able.

Kyrou is decent defensively, better than most of our forwards. Really impressive backchecker.

 

[mike1320]

Kyrou is decent defensively, better than most of our forwards. Really impressive backchecker.

I'm not sure if you're being serious...

 

[Ranksu]

I'm not sure if you're being serious...

In backchecker part. Kyrou is really good. People caught get suprise his backcheck, 'Cus he has another level in his skating. ROR or Sundqvist arent fast, but skill wise they are amazing stick lifts in backcheck.

Im speaking only backcheck not full of defensive hockey IQ.

 

[mike1320]

In backchecker part. Kyrou is really good. People caught get suprise his backcheck, 'Cus he has another level in his skating. ROR or Sundqvist arent fast, but skill wise they are amazing stick lifts in backcheck.

Im speaking only backcheck not full of defensive hockey IQ.

That's a huge stretch to say that he's better than most of our forwards, defensively. I'd put him near the bottom of that list.

 

[SIU LAW]

Perhaps someone mentioned this earlier, but do people forget that Thomas was a healthy scratch time to time?

 

[Dbrownss]

That's a huge stretch to say that he's better than most of our forwards, defensively. I'd put him near the bottom of that list.

I think he's speaking to his ability to be able to do it. I have seen him at times do an excellent job. Given his skating ability, he could be the Parayko of forwards for getting back in a play. But yes...given our roster, the on ice product is probably the worst

 

[mike1320]

I think he's speaking to his ability to be able to do it. I have seen him at times do an excellent job. Given his skating ability, he could be the Parayko of forwards for getting back in a play. But yes...given our roster, the on ice product is probably the worst

He kinda reminds me of the "white skates era" Perron. He's a raw talent that needs some tough love. If that means getting benched or sent back to the minors, so be it.

 

[SIU LAW]

Chief has been consistent as to benching on the bubble forwards who inconsistently play the “right” (his/gritty) way. Kyrou hasn’t been singled out, he just has further to climb to get to where he consistently works within Chief’s system.

Barring injuries or a trade, I would bank on him getting some seasoning this year and not being a full time player until next year. When it comes to heavy games and heavy opponents, Chief is going to go with different players with grittier tools even if they have less dipsy doodle razzle dazzle skill than Kyrou. Chief wants to smother and run opponents out of the building. Kyrou is not there yet.