2019 - 2020 St. Louis Blues - Defending the Cup - Part 2: The Depth from Within

[tkenney65]

This is definitely worth mentioning. It was a stupid move then, and it's a really stupid move now. We wouldn't have been in this spot with Fabbri if we had gifted him half the time we had Sanford. I can't see us having an injury and saying "thank goodness we have Sanford - now it's his turn to rise to the occasion", and that's because Sanford has nowhere else to grow, and he's an above-average tweener/13th forward.

Bringing in a guy like Fabbri (super low cost, super high upside, offensive ability and speed) would make this forum ecstatic. Let's not pretend like losing him for nearly nothing (and literally nothing when it comes to what we actually need) isn't a dumb move. We should be begging for DA to find us a Fabbri in our current situation -- instead he gave him away and allowed him to become unhappy with his minutes (which he rightfully should have been), and instead brought in Brouwer; at best a band-aid.

Death, Taxes, Fabbri is a superstar and Sanford Su***......God I love this forum.

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

Death, Taxes, Fabbri is a superstar and Sanford Su***......God I love this forum.

Hyperbole. God I LOVE this forum

 

[Stealth JD]

Sandford, Fabbri, de la Rose, Kostin, MacEachern, Brouwer...whoever. We're talking about filling the 10-14th forwards in most cases and the Blues group (without mentioning Barbashev or Steen) is deeper than most. Does de la Rose look as worthless as 2017 Sundqvist, or Sanford resemble Tage Thompson too often? Sure...but with the cap system that's what you're going to be left with on the fringes of the roster when injuries strike, as they have. de la Rose, MacEachern, Brouwer & Sanford probably all come out with Tarasenko, Blais & Steen healthy; and are replaced long-term on the roster by Kostin & Kyrou. Much ado about nothing.

 

[Majorityof1]

Sandford, Fabbri, de la Rose, Kostin, MacEachern, Brouwer...whoever. We're talking about filling the 10-14th forwards in most cases and the Blues group (without mentioning Barbashev or Steen) is deeper than most. Does de la Rose look as worthless as 2017 Sundqvist, or Sanford resemble Tage Thompson too often? Sure...but with the cap system that's what you're going to be left with on the fringes of the roster when injuries strike, as they have. de la Rose, MacEachern, Brouwer & Sanford probably all come out with Tarasenko, Blais & Steen healthy; and are replaced long-term on the roster by Kostin & Kyrou. Much ado about nothing.

We were not as deep as people seem to think if we won't play our youth. We were already short a Top 6 player entering the season. Then injuries quickly exposed that we have nobody we could (or more likely were willing) to put into the Top 6 to help the top 4 (Schwartz, Schenn, ROR and Perron) carry the scoring weight. We had to go outside of our system for 2 guys, neither are good top 6 fill-ins, to replace 3 injuries. We only had 1 depth guy we trusted in MacEachern. Our other healthy scratch was traded for someone who could play "Our"-style of game, which apparently doesn't involve scoring if DLR's skill-set is any indication. Then we scoured the garbage heaps for Brouwer.

We need to condense our lines, and see if we can have a more traditional top 6, with a 3rd line capable of exploiting matchups and a 4th meant to kill time. That may involve breaking up the current 4th line, which is unfortunate, but we don't have the horses to run 4 scoring lines. Barby and Sunny can score goals in the right situation with the right minutes.

Schwartz - Schenn - Bozak
Perron - O'Reilly - Sundqvist
Barby- Thomas - Kostin
Sanford/Brouwer - De La Rose - MacMac

 

[Brian39]

We were not as deep as people seem to think if we won't play our youth. We were already short a Top 6 player entering the season. Then injuries quickly exposed that we have nobody we could (or more likely were willing) to put into the Top 6 to help the top 4 (Schwartz, Schenn, ROR and Perron) carry the scoring weight. We had to go outside of our system for 2 guys, neither are good top 6 fill-ins, to replace 3 injuries. We only had 1 depth guy we trusted in MacEachern. Our other healthy scratch was traded for someone who could play "Our"-style of game, which apparently doesn't involve scoring if DLR's skill-set is any indication. Then we scoured the garbage heaps for Brouwer.

We need to condense our lines, and see if we can have a more traditional top 6, with a 3rd line capable of exploiting matchups and a 4th meant to kill time. That may involve breaking up the current 4th line, which is unfortunate, but we don't have the horses to run 4 scoring lines. Barby and Sunny can score goals in the right situation with the right minutes.

Schwartz - Schenn - Bozak
Perron - O'Reilly - Sundqvist
Barby- Thomas - Kostin
Sanford/Brouwer - De La Rose - MacMac

I agree with almost all of this, but I'd tweak the lines a bit to keep Perron on the RW with ROR. I think I would roll one of these:

Schwartz-Schenn-Bozak
Kostin-ROR-Perron
Barby-Thomas-Sunny
Sanford/Brouwer-DLR-MacMac

or

Schwartz-Schenn-Bozak
Sunny/Barby-ROR-Perron
Barby/Sunny-Thomas-Kostin
Sanford/Brouwer-DLR-MacMac

Someone is playing a wing they are unfamiliar with, but that will happen when you are down 3 forwards. I'd rather have the guy on his off wing be a support piece to a line rather than Perron, who we need to step up right now.

 

[Brian39]

Double post for a separate thought.

We need help. We're down a top line winger, a middle 6 winger and a damn good bottom 6 winger. Tarasenko is out at least the next 60 games and Blais is out for at least the next 30 games. Even when Steen comes back, we can't build an adequate top 9 if we keep our awesome 4th line intact. And if we don't have our awesome 4th line, I don't think the top 9 is good enough to be 10th-15th best in the league to overcome that.

Up until now, I wanted to see Army slowly explore the trade market while giving our internal options the chance to prove themselves. But we are now in position where we can bring in another top 6 or middle 6 guy and still give our internal options chances. The injury luck has been bad, but there is zero reason to believe we are done with injuries. It is incredibly unlikely that we are going to make it 10+ weeks without a short term injury to another top 9 forward. If that player is Schenn, Schwartz, ROR, Perron, Bozak, Thomas, or Sunny then the lineup suddenly looks significantly worse. That is too many potential injuries that could spark disaster.

I'm not interested in continuing the debate about whether Fabbri could/should/would have been able to help plug this hole. I doubt anyone is changing their mind about their opinion at this point and it doesn't matter at this point. As we stand today, this team needs help from outside the organization.

 

[Majorityof1]

I agree with almost all of this, but I'd tweak the lines a bit to keep Perron on the RW with ROR. I think I would roll one of these:

Schwartz-Schenn-Bozak
Kostin-ROR-Perron
Barby-Thomas-Sunny
Sanford/Brouwer-DLR-MacMac

or

Schwartz-Schenn-Bozak
Sunny/Barby-ROR-Perron
Barby/Sunny-Thomas-Kostin
Sanford/Brouwer-DLR-MacMac

Someone is playing a wing they are unfamiliar with, but that will happen when you are down 3 forwards. I'd rather have the guy on his off wing be a support piece to a line rather than Perron, who we need to step up right now.

I toyed with Kostin on the ROR line, so I am fine with that. I meant for Perron to be RW on my lines, as I believe Sunny and Barby are more comfortable on the LW when not at C anyway. I had Perron on the left because I wrote "Perron - ROR -" as a placeholder until I figured out who else to put there

 

[The Note]

I hope Army has at least kicked the tires on Toffoli and/or Kreider.

 

[Blanick]

I hope Army has at least kicked the tires on Toffoli and/or Kreider.

I would have to imagine he is working the phones pretty hard right now. I would easily throw a 2nd+ at either player, preferably Kreider.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

For those entertaining a most-season trade, what are you willing to pay with?

 

[Blanick]

For those entertaining a most-season trade, what are you willing to pay with?

Non 1st round picks. We don't need a star just an established middle 6 player.

 

[Stealth JD]

Give Kyrou 20 games before making a move.

Determine whether you can bring back Petro or not.
If no - get Hall.
If yes - get Toffoli / Kreider

 

[Ranksu]

We have killer in the AHL who could fit top6 role. Kyrou. Evaluate him before go trade. Now is the time give Kyrou time.

 

[Brian39]

To everyone saying give Kyrou a chance before a trade:

Schwartz-Schenn-Bozak
Kostin/Kyrou-ROR-Perron
Acquisition-Thomas-Kyrou/Kostin
Barby-Sunny-Steen
MacMac and Sanford in the press box

or flip flop Bozak and the acquisition depending on chemistry, handedness, etc.

If we stay completely healthy, roll that for 8+ weeks and then make a tough decision when Blais returns. But realistically, odds are good that another forward will be out when Blais returns and you push the tough decision further down the road.

I don't think the organization wants both Kyrou and Kostin in the top 9 of the lineup at the same time. If they are comfortable with both in the lineup at the same time, it should come at the expense of ice time for Sanford/Mac and roster spots for DLR/Brouwer, not at the expense of improving the lineup with a proven middle/top 6 player.

As I alluded to. The injury to Blais means we are no longer in the stage of either testing the young guys OR bringing in outside help. We can test the young guys AND bring in outside help. The decision to bring up Kyrou is largely independent of the decision to make a trade. If the organization is ready to bring up Kyrou, he should be replacing a player from the fringe of the lineup.

 

[BlueMed]

There is no way we can keep Kyrou in the minors like this. He is a point per game player there and is scoring 0.5 goals per game. We need to bring him up and give him a legitimate shot with or without Kostin. We need speed and skill, and our team has plenty of guidance from veteran players to make this work. I dont think Brouwer and DLR will boost our scoring enough if at all.

 

[Dbrownss]

There is no way we can keep Kyrou in the minors like this. He is a point per game player there and is scoring 0.5 goals per game. We need to bring him up and give him a legitimate shot with or without Kostin. We need speed and skill, and our team has plenty of guidance from veteran players to make this work. I dont think Brouwer and DLR will boost our scoring enough if at all.

Unless they plop him on Schenn's wing, why bother. They already relegated Kostin to the 4th line and he looks useless down there. It's a critisism I still have with the coaches. Put these kids in a position to succeed and manage their minutes. Sticking these guys on the 4th line playing less then 10min a game isnt going to yield the results people want to see for these guys to stick in the NHL.

 

[Blueston]

Unless they plop him on Schenn's wing, why bother. They already relegated Kostin to the 4th line and he looks useless down there. It's a critisism I still have with the coaches. Put these kids in a position to succeed and manage their minutes. Sticking these guys on the 4th line playing less then 10min a game isnt going to yield the results people want to see for these guys to stick in the NHL.

I don't think we really believe Kostin is ready to contribute much. This feels like rewarding him for his hard work and progress and helping him see what he still needs to work on in his game.

 

[Dbrownss]

I don't think we really believe Kostin is ready to contribute much. This feels like rewarding him for his hard work and progress and helping him see what he still needs to work on in his game.

I dont agree. He was impactful and noticeable against CBJ. Playing the 1 mistake/no play game doesn't help. Give these guys an actual chance. I can appreciate "rewarding" the guy, but we need Kostin to assert himself.

Also. If we can get the youth to make an impact, it'll keep Armstrong from making anymore dumb ass trades

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I dont agree. He was impactful and noticeable against CBJ. Playing the 1 mistake/no play game doesn't help. Give these guys an actual chance. I can appreciate "rewarding" the guy, but we need Kostin to assert himself.

Also. If we can get the youth to make an impact, it'll keep Armstrong from making anymore dumb ass trades

I'm not sure even the most optimistic about Kostin on this board think he's going to stick permanently this call up. I could be mistaken.

They were playing one of the elite teams in the league, and playing a tight close-score shut-down game very effectively. You've got to win the game, then worry about Kostin's minutes. He got a few shifts, and he's getting NHL practices. If there's a game that's not so tight, there's a bigger opportunity for him. But I think its more likely he'll get a handful of games and then get sent down with a tangible list of things to work on and first-hand knowledge of why. Simultaneously, Kyrou will be ready. He was probably NHL in camp if he weren't injured. And I think Kyrou WILL stick if he is called up.

If later in the year Kostin proves ready for another call-up (beyond being a Black Ace in the post-season) it could well be at Brouwer's expense, depending on injuries. But I don't see that happening until Kyrou has played several weeks.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

A couple big games against Nashville coming up. They’ve got to be feeling desperate. If the Blues can win those, it would shovel a lot of dirt on the Preds’ coffin.

 

[Stealth JD]

A few thoughts on the game last night:
Crazy how it was the Sanford, Thomas, Sundqvist line that provided most of the offense when it was the Sasky line (Schwartz, Schenn, Bozak) that generated so many prime scoring chances. That top line could’ve scored a half-dozen times, yet were stifled on most of their chances. I wouldn’t mind the Sasky boys sticking together for a while, and if the third line can keep producing a goal (or more) each night, the only spot of concern looks to be LW on the second line besides ROR and Perron. Ideally, Blais will solidify that spot when he returns from wrist-surgery...so that should get the Blues three solid scoring lines while awaiting Tarasenko’s return; without the need for Kostin or Kyrou being thrust into a scoring role for which they’re unprepared.

The fourth line has enough warm bodies (Brouwer, DLR, MacMac, Kostin, eventually Steen) that Barby (or anyone else of chief’s choosing) can move up along with the ROR/Perron duo temporarily until Blais returns. Kyrou seems best suited for an audition here, but again, assuming Sandy/Thomas/Sunny remains a viable thing, maybe the best spot for a Tarasenko return for the playoffs is with Perron & ROR:

Schwartz-Schenn-Bozak
Perron-ROR-Tarasenko
Sanford-Thomas-Sunny
Steen-Barby-Brouwer
Ex: Blais-MacMac-DLR-Kostin

When healthy, I’d expect a Blais to draw back in, but this Sanford explosion could complicate matters for Berube. With the offense seemingly loaded with short-term options, I wonder if trading for guys like Toffoli, Kreider or Pageau is misguided and counter-productive; seeing as how the Blues will have to start waiving guys as their health improves.

 

[CoverYour5]

Whatever Berube does, I REALLY hope he keeps Thomas at center.

 

[Itsnotatrap]

A couple big games against Nashville coming up. They’ve got to be feeling desperate. If the Blues can win those, it would shovel a lot of dirt on the Preds’ coffin.

Exactly. This is a huge opportunity.

 

[BlueDream]

A few thoughts on the game last night:
Crazy how it was the Sanford, Thomas, Sundqvist line that provided most of the offense when it was the Sasky line (Schwartz, Schenn, Bozak) that generated so many prime scoring chances. That top line could’ve scored a half-dozen times, yet were stifled on most of their chances. I wouldn’t mind the Sasky boys sticking together for a while, and if the third line can keep producing a goal (or more) each night, the only spot of concern looks to be LW on the second line besides ROR and Perron. Ideally, Blais will solidify that spot when he returns from wrist-surgery...so that should get the Blues three solid scoring lines while awaiting Tarasenko’s return; without the need for Kostin or Kyrou being thrust into a scoring role for which they’re unprepared.

The fourth line has enough warm bodies (Brouwer, DLR, MacMac, Kostin, eventually Steen) that Barby (or anyone else of chief’s choosing) can move up along with the ROR/Perron duo temporarily until Blais returns. Kyrou seems best suited for an audition here, but again, assuming Sandy/Thomas/Sunny remains a viable thing, maybe the best spot for a Tarasenko return for the playoffs is with Perron & ROR:

Schwartz-Schenn-Bozak
Perron-ROR-Tarasenko
Sanford-Thomas-Sunny
Steen-Barby-Brouwer
Ex: Blais-MacMac-DLR-Kostin

When healthy, I’d expect a Blais to draw back in, but this Sanford explosion could complicate matters for Berube. With the offense seemingly loaded with short-term options, I wonder if trading for guys like Toffoli, Kreider or Pageau is misguided and counter-productive; seeing as how the Blues will have to start waiving guys as their health improves.

Much higher chance Blais is in a playoff lineup than Tarasenko.

 

[Brian39]

When healthy, I’d expect a Blais to draw back in, but this Sanford explosion could complicate matters for Berube. With the offense seemingly loaded with short-term options, I wonder if trading for guys like Toffoli, Kreider or Pageau is misguided and counter-productive; seeing as how the Blues will have to start waiving guys as their health improves.

I'm operating under the assumption that Tarasenko is not returning before rosters expand, which should be a given.

Even with a trade AND one of Kostin/Kyrou sticking on the roster, you only have to waive DLR and Brouwer to get to a 23 man roster when everyone besides Tarasenko is healthy. We should not reconsider an improvement to the top 9 over concerns about waiving either of those guys. Those two are the definition of expendable forwards and losing either to waivers shouldn't be any cause for concern.

Realistically, Kostin is pretty clearly not going to stick. Right or wrong, Berube doesn't trust him beyond a 4th line role and barely trusts him in that role in a close game. I think Yappi is dead on in his assessment and frankly I think Berube's stance on Kostin at the moment is fair. I've liked what I have seen from him so far, but I also haven't seen anything to indicate he absolutely needs to be playing in the middle 6. I think he played well in a bottom 6 role last night and is absolutely better suited for that role than Kyrou would be. I'd leave him up here for a few more games in the same role. Get him a few weeks of practices, a couple big NHL paychecks and send him back to the AHL with a list of things to work on.

And then you call up Kyrou and plug him into the middle 6.

But none of that causes me to stop looking for a trade. For the sake of argument (and knowing Berube's affinity for Sanford) lets say we are married to that Sanford-Thomas pair on the 3rd line moving forward.

Schwartz-Schenn-Bozak
?????-ROR-Perron
Sanford-Thomas-?????
?????-?????-?????

Kyrou, Barby, Sunny, Steen, Mac, DLR, Brouwer are the options to fill in those ????? lineup spots. I want Kyrou on the 2nd or 3rd line and I want Barby-Sunny-Steen as the 4th line. That leaves a hole in the middle 6 that I don't want filled by Mac, DLR or Brouwer. So go out and get an acquisition to fill the hole, waive whichever of DLR/Brouwer you like the least.

Schwartz-Schenn-Bozak
New Guy/Kyrou-ROR-Perron
Sanford-Thomas-Kyrou/New Guy
Barby-Sunny-Steen (AKA the best 4th line in hockey)

Assuming that new guy is a 40+ point player and Kyrou is a competent middle 6 skill player, that is the deepest forward group in hockey while also having a pretty damn legit top 6. It leads to a tough decision when Blais returns if everyone stays healthy (lol), but that is a great problem to have.