2019/20 Roster Thread XXII

[Rich Nixon]

@God Bless Mr Gritty I have no desire to wade into the larger conversation, but are there any Defensemen who played for this team you would consider "my-eyesballs-are-bleeding bad?" Let's say I'm asking with respect to on ice play only and from the start of the Berube era forward, ignoring the current rostered Defensemen. This would also ignore issues like how tired we all were of watching MacDonald after so many years.

I'm just trying to get a scale here so I can see where we actually disagree. I'm also trying to do it without running your counter to 145 because it tends to stick the conversation there from all sides of that discussion.

No one consistently, because anyone that atrocious usually doesn't get an NHL job for long. MacDonald was up there some games, sometimes weeks in a row, just completely feckless. Nick Schultz and Luke Schenn were probably the closest, and Hagg is in their territory (albeit, somehow, more mobile). Really bad, but you'd think from reading here that I was out there on the ice.

Is he bad, sure. Is he "144 mentions in three pages" bad? Who cares.

 

[captainpaxil]

“It’s only been x-games” is not, has not, and never will be a valid defense of a coach doing something stupid.

Game 1, Game 7, or game 280, screwing up is screwing up.

It takes 0 regular season games to realize that specific things are wrong and inexcusable. Especially when those mistakes are because he didn't do his homework, which he admitted himself.

I think avs point about coming in with fresh eyes is a valid one though.
G is still the captain and hayes who has prior experience with av and knows what he expects got the a. I don't know that I'd want hak or gordon coloring perception beyond that.
Hagg is a decent 6/7 who can play either side. Had he started his career being 5 years older he may be comparable to braun but the league has been moving away from his skillset and the opportunity for a guy with his limited transition game simply isn't there anymore.

I haven't honestly noticed anything intolerable yet. Certain things i disagree with but predicting trends on a ten game sample while something could be arbitrary(waiting on farabee) or motivational(voracek on a checking line) is premature.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Even Morin-Ghost would be a nice change of pace.

Preseason 2014 was fun.

Sam looked like he could get a 9 game trial. Fast forward 5 years and he hasn't even played 9 NHL games total.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Only reason people defend these players because no matter what they do they can never do right in the eyes of the group think around here. Honestly the level of low quality post around here is why I hardly post here anymore. Even after a win somebody will find some way to criticize Hagg or anybody who gets the blame for all the teams problems. I blame that on the NHL for the fact they dont educate fans on team systems and player roles in accordance to the system of the team. I've noticed on this board defensive defenseman or depth players do not get respect and offensive defenseman or skilled players get severely overrated.



I've seen the big bag of excuses for Ghost but the reality is he isnt as great as most people think. Hes sheltered and limited in areas of the ice for a reason but pointing this out makes me a Hagg pusher or whatever? That's ridiculous. Ghost is pretty below average defensively and right now hes inconsistent offensively. Nobody wants the truth that just want what sounds good. Sanheim has been pretty even he picked it up last game but yet you will find more post about Hagg but I noticed nobody had much to say when Travis was fumbling pucks, whiffing on shots, making poor decisions with the puck, and losing puck battles.

I think nobody on here can have a honest discussion about this team because people are scared to voice their opinion in fear of the pack around here jumping on people for god forbid not seeing it how they do.

Every year it's the coaches fault, Hagg, Manning,. Its always the coach or a depth players fault. Not the fault that our high paid stars aren't scoring. Not the fact that highly touted prospect isnt living up to potential.

It's easy to pick on the weaker player but I've never seen a in depth discussion about this team systems in all three zones. Like what kind of forecheck or breakout they use. Do they play zone or man in the defensive zone? What's said players strength and weakness?

Excellent post.

 

[Tripod]

The excessive focus on Hagg kills me though. He's not very good. He's not my-eyeballs-are-bleeding bad, but he's not good. But he's the 6th defenseman, and you'd think he was playing 37 minutes a game based on the outsize focus on the guy. He's the stay-at-home defenseman pud that no one likes. He's not going to win you any games, but it's foolish to think he's losing them for you.

There's really nothing to say about him that hasn't been said before, and yet his name appeared, I swear to god, 144 times in the last three pages (34-36) of this thread. For perspective, "Giroux" appeared 0 times. "Hayes" appeared once.

Except he isn't a stay at home Dman. He is jumping up into the play and being caught in the OZ way more than Ghost ever was, and doesn't have the skill to do anything while there.

So by cause and effect, if Hagg is in deep and puck comes to Ghost, he knows he has to stay back so he is limited in his options and what he does. After all, can't have the last Dman make a mistake with the puck. So often the puck just gets pushed back in deep(which at times is 100% the right thing to do) instead of a "play" being made.

And this is part of where the "Hagg is neutering Ghost" talk comes from. And then Ghost complainers bitch that Ghost is not producing all while ignoring some of the reasons why. Just like complaining that he isn't producing on the #1PP when the #1PP is not set up (right now) for him...and others to produce to their best ability.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Exact same thing happened with Manning. Manning was absurdly aggressive and it meant Ghost was the stay at home guy on that pairing. His production spiked the moment they were apart.

 

[Tripod]

Exact same thing happened with Manning. Manning was absurdly aggressive and it meant Ghost was the stay at home guy on that pairing. His production spiked the moment they were apart.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

No one consistently, because anyone that atrocious usually doesn't get an NHL job for long. MacDonald was up there some games, sometimes weeks in a row, just completely feckless. Nick Schultz and Luke Schenn were probably the closest, and Hagg is in their territory (albeit, somehow, more mobile). Really bad, but you'd think from reading here that I was out there on the ice.

Is he bad, sure. Is he "144 mentions in three pages" bad? Who cares.

Ok, I'm glad I asked. Your line for treading water is just lower than mine. I definitely understand the actual discussion better.

I'm tired of talking about him too, although I understand the frustration of those that aren't because we're now pushing up to 200 Games of NHL data. For the sake of reference, some people have watched Hagg play in the NHL/AHL as many times as AMac suited up for the Flyers by now. I think we were all tired of that specific mistake by the end.

I think/hope it wouldn't be nearly as common a topic if there weren't 3 Defensemen worth a look in the lineup rotting on the vine to various degrees. Personally, I try not to dwell on individual mistakes from anyone and focus on the big picture. Unfortunately in this one player's case, it's never looked good. Not once. I'm out of ways to try to be positive or even angles for potential, so I just don't talk about it much.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I don’t even really care that Ghost doesn’t activate deep in the OZ. He’s never really been a guy that thrived doing it. Does most of his damage near the blue line. But Hagg is just so wreckless and careless with his pinches. Like EASHL drop-in level. He does more harm than good.

 

[Striiker]

I think avs point about coming in with fresh eyes is a valid one though.
G is still the captain and hayes who has prior experience with av and knows what he expects got the a. I don't know that I'd want hak or gordon coloring perception beyond that.
Hagg is a decent 6/7 who can play either side. Had he started his career being 5 years older he may be comparable to braun but the league has been moving away from his skillset and the opportunity for a guy with his limited transition game simply isn't there anymore.

I haven't honestly noticed anything intolerable yet. Certain things i disagree with but predicting trends on a ten game sample while something could be arbitrary(waiting on farabee) or motivational(voracek on a checking line) is premature.

Being unbiased would have been good but he can't come into camp ignorant of the players he's supposed to organize. It's literally his job to use them as best as he can... if he doesn't know about them then he can't do that.

For example, if he was educated on the players and their history then he'd know key things that should never have needed to be experimented with. Like that Hagg doesn't belong in the NHL, Ghost isn't a 3rd pair defensemen, the Giroux-Couturier-TK line is our best, Provorov-Ghost was an elite pairing, Braun isn't a top 4 defensemen, Provorov and Niskanen don't belong on the PP, GIROUX AND VORACEK NEED TO BE IN THE CORRECT PLACES ON THE POWERPLAY, and a bunch of other simple things he has no excuse to get wrong if he knows anything about these players. The fact the he couldn't even put them onto lines on the first day of training camp is pretty shocking. He had to ask Fletcher to do it for him.

 

[landsbergfan]

I don’t even really care that Ghost doesn’t activate deep in the OZ. He’s never really been a guy that thrived doing it. Does most of his damage near the blue line. But Hagg is just so wreckless and careless with his pinches. Like EASHL drop-in level. He does more harm than good.

I don't think he's careless with his pinches...just useless with them

 

[Magua]

“People don’t like defensive defensemen, they just like flashy offensive ones!”

Don’t bury the lede, people! Put this right at the top of posts so I can promptly move to the next post. Hogwash of the most flashy offensive kind.

I don't think he's careless with his pinches...just useless with them

More times than not when I see him pinch, I see the puck go the other way 2 seconds later.

 

[Beef Invictus]

“People don’t like defensive defensemen, they just like flashy offensive ones!”

Don’t bury the lede, people! Put this right at the top of posts so I can promptly move to the next post. Hogwash of the most flashy offensive kind.



More times than not when I see him pinch, I see the puck go the other way 2 seconds later.

"Hagg is good at forechecking"

 

[Alchemy]

- Hagg has been okay this season so far. I tend to view every player’s performance through a lense of net-impact. Hagg’s net-impact has been serviceable to date
- Ghost has been a mess with the puck on his stick. He’s also been pretty defensively sound. So-so net-impact to date
- Sanheim’s puck battle win rate frustrates me. He’s been alright overall so far but there is another gear for him he has yet to hit on a consistent basis (a gear he has hit in the recent past)


Systems are a bit of a blindspot for me. Care to start an in-depth discussion on the team’s system’s in all 3 zones?

We should make a thread about that breaking down systems. Ill be more than happy to contribute. Ill def, need to spend less time on my phone visiting this site and log in on my macbook. That way i can post gifs and stilled images breaking down what AV wants the flyers to do. One thing for sure is he likes to use the overload strategy in the offensive zone and a basic offensive cycle

Heres a good site to get started.

Ice Hockey Systems

 

[Curufinwe]

"Hagg is good at forechecking"

Put Hagg at 4RW, and Morin on the 3rd pair.

 

[Tripod]

We should make a thread about that breaking down systems. Ill be more than happy to contribute. Ill def, need to spend less time on my phone visiting this site and log in on my macbook. That way i can post gifs and stilled images breaking down what AV wants the flyers to do. One thing for sure is he likes to use the overload strategy in the offensive zone and a basic offensive cycle

Heres a good site to get started.

Ice Hockey Systems

Yeah it's very obvious that we are getting better puck support along the boards...often 3 guys in with another hanging just outside.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Put Hagg at 4RW, and Morin on the 3rd pair.

Pros:

Replaces Stewart with a younger player who has unknown upside at forward
Takes Hagg off D
Gets Morin games
Chasing late hits will at least tie up defenders who are hit instead instead of taking him out of defensive position
JJ will have his favorite storyline ever

Cons:

JJ will have his favorite storyline ever
Wait do we not have actual forward prospects
No scoring
Confusion
Hagg will be playing forward

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

 

[Striiker]

oh for f***s sake

every year with this shit

 

[landsbergfan]

More times than not when I see him pinch, I see the puck go the other way 2 seconds later.

Without a doubt. I was talking more about how they usually aren't unsupported and very risky. More of a situation where if he is pinching, pretty much anyone could be pinching. Some other guys on our team *cough Sanheim *cough Myers *cough Morin have the speed to get back on riskier pinches. And when he does pinch it's with little substance and he more or less just takes our own forward out of the play for a while

 

[Rich Nixon]

oh for ****s sake

every year with this ****

Hey man the Flyers started .500 through their first 7 games, it's rebuild time.

(actually, only one of the last four Cup winners was over .500 through their first 7 games, fun fact).

 

[deadhead]

Hagg doesn't pinch that much, not nearly as much as Manning, for example.
What he does is follow the puck into the O-zone when the overload is to the other side.

And he is good at tying the puck up in the corner and along the boards and allowing reinforcements to arrive, he's not Lindblom, but he's willing to go after the puck and fight for it, something many of our defensemen the last few years shied away from at both ends.

This is done by design, and Hagg isn't reckless, it's obvious watching him he's been told to attack the O-zone in certain circumstances, but he's not trying to skate end to end. I don't think they have any illusions about his upside, AV's goal is probably to coach him into a passable 3rd pair defenseman.

I think people should stop assuming Morin can do anything until and when we see him play.
The reality is that AV prefers Hagg to him right now, which suggests Morin is not looking that great in practice.
So don't assume what remains to be proven.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Hey man the Flyers started .500 through their first 7 games, it's rebuild time.

(actually, only one of the last four Cup winners was over .500 through their first 7 games, fun fact).

I believe it is a responsible use of statistics to assert that to win a Cup, you must throw 4 of your first 7 games.

 

[Rich Nixon]

I believe it is a responsible use of statistics to assert that to win a Cup, you must throw 4 of your first 7 games.

I think the way those stats work out is that the Flyers have a 75% chance of winning the Cup.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think the way those stats work out is that the Flyers have a 75% chance of winning the Cup.

Did you remember to account for our 100% rate of losing in the Finals to some dynasty since 1975?