Speculation: 2019-20 Roster Speculation Pt. 4

[OkimLom]

Tanking for half of your tenure as a GM and still trading away two first round picks, four second round picks, four third round picks, and a fifth round pick in three years in many poor trades will give some people that opinion.

Imagine we actually draft some of those players instead of acquiring Dan Bylsma and Jim Vesey's negotiation rights for 2 3rd round picks.

Brayden Point was drafted in one of those third rounds.

At some point you have to start building the main roster and start creating a winning atmosphere for young players to come up to. Can’t build a whole team from drafting and development.

Murray was given a soft broken main roster, that reached its potential before he got there.

Murray valued creating a competitive main roster over creating a competitive AHL team. But with the way he drafted, similar to Botts with longer development paths, he probably was expecting to get HIS draft classes shortly.

 

[Dirty Dog]

And Clarkson

Well played sir.

 

[Chainshot]

It's July 7.

Recent history indicates quality player movement from now until training camp is not a regular occurence. We may attempt to assuage our fears about the lineup, but that doesn't hold up well to looking at the trend in player movement. It's going to take more work, not less, to find any sort of quality in trade.

 

[Dingo44]

Recent history indicates quality player movement from now until training camp is not a regular occurence. We may attempt to assuage our fears about the lineup, but that doesn't hold up well to looking at the trend in player movement. It's going to take more work, not less, to find any sort of quality in trade.

July 12, 2018

To Arizona Coyotes Marian Hossa Vinnie Hinostroza Jordan Oesterle 3rd-round pick in 2019

To Chicago Blackhawks Marcus Kruger Andrew Campbell MacKenzie Entwistle Jordan Maletta 5th-round pick in 2019

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

August 2, 2018

To Buffalo Sabres Jeff Skinner

To Carolina Hurricanes Cliff Pu 2nd-round pick in 2019 3rd-round pick in 2020 6th-round pick in 2020

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

September 9, 2018

To Vegas Golden Knights Max Pacioretty*

To Montreal Canadiens Tomas Tatar* Nick Suzuki CBJ 2nd-round pick in 2019

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

September 11, 2018

To New York Rangers Adam McQuaid

To Boston Bruins Steven Kampfer 4th-round pick in 2019 conditional 7th-round pick in 2019

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

September 13, 2018

To San Jose Sharks Erik Karlsson Francis Perron

To Ottawa Senators Chris Tierney Dylan DeMelo Josh Norris Rudolfs Balcers conditional 1st-round pick in 2019 or      1st-round pick in 2020 conditional FLA 2nd-round pick in 2019 or      SJS 2nd-round pick in 2019 conditional 1st-round pick in 2021 or      2nd-round pick in 2021 conditional 1st-round pick

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Dingo44]

Plus, there are teams that HAVE to make moves - Vegas and the Leafs being two of them.

There are a TON of very good to elite RFA's that have yet to sign - more than in past years, and it seems the rules have changed with how much power these young players have (for some reason).

We will see a lot of stuff in limbo over the summer, and that is very frustrating to fanbases, and not just ours. I guarantee that I could pull posts out of every team's board saying the exact same thing people here are about the lack of activity. I made a joke yesterday about how Botts hadn't done anything since yesterday morning but I guess some people really think that.

The Sabres have two things teams want - a big young relatively cheap RHD who can put up points, and some cap space and an owner willing to spend money. Teams are coming to us - not the other way around.

Things will happen. It's going to be fun to pull out old posts when they do.

 

[OkimLom]

July 12, 2018

To Arizona Coyotes Marian Hossa Vinnie Hinostroza Jordan Oesterle 3rd-round pick in 2019

To Chicago Blackhawks Marcus Kruger Andrew Campbell MacKenzie Entwistle Jordan Maletta 5th-round pick in 2019

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

August 2, 2018

To Buffalo Sabres Jeff Skinner

To Carolina Hurricanes Cliff Pu 2nd-round pick in 2019 3rd-round pick in 2020 6th-round pick in 2020

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

September 9, 2018

To Vegas Golden Knights Max Pacioretty*

To Montreal Canadiens Tomas Tatar* Nick Suzuki CBJ 2nd-round pick in 2019

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

September 11, 2018

To New York Rangers Adam McQuaid

To Boston Bruins Steven Kampfer 4th-round pick in 2019 conditional 7th-round pick in 2019

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

September 13, 2018

To San Jose Sharks Erik Karlsson Francis Perron

To Ottawa Senators Chris Tierney Dylan DeMelo Josh Norris Rudolfs Balcers conditional 1st-round pick in 2019 or      1st-round pick in 2020 conditional FLA 2nd-round pick in 2019 or      SJS 2nd-round pick in 2019 conditional 1st-round pick in 2021 or      2nd-round pick in 2021 conditional 1st-round pick

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So the theme is guys with one year left on their contracts that teams are looking to unload for something?

 

[OkimLom]

Plus, there are teams that HAVE to make moves - Vegas and the Leafs being two of them.

There are a TON of very good to elite RFA's that have yet to sign - more than in past years, and it seems the rules have changed with how much power these young players have (for some reason).

We will see a lot of stuff in limbo over the summer, and that is very frustrating to fanbases, and not just ours. I guarantee that I could pull posts out of every team's board saying the exact same thing people here are about the lack of activity. I made a joke yesterday about how Botts hadn't done anything since yesterday morning but I guess some people really think that.

The Sabres have two things teams want - a big young relatively cheap RHD who can put up points, and some cap space and an owner willing to spend money. Teams are coming to us - not the other way around.

Things will happen. It's going to be fun to pull out old posts when they do.

How do you know teams are coming to us? Nothing gets leaked.

 

[Lloydchristmas138]

I see Mittelstadt as the second line center again if he plays well in camp or preseason. Will his development be better served centering Reinhart and Oloffson or Okposo and Vesey? His development is more important than playing a stopgap #2 center next year, we're not winning the cup next year. Plus, who's to say he doesn't show significant improvement from last year with added training and growing up. Sometimes all it takes is some confidence to get rolling, we know he has the talent.

Skinner-Eichel-Johansson
Oloffson-Mittelstadt-Reinhart
Vesey-Rodrigues-Sheary
Smith-Larsson-Okposo
Girgs etc.

Thompson/Nylander wild cards, would love to dump Sheary

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

I think this team can score 3 gpg this year.

Skinner- 35
Eichel - 30
Reinhart - 25
Johansson - 20
Vesey - 17
Sheary - 16
Mitts - 15
Olofsson - 15
Okposo - 13
Girgs/Larsson/Sobotka - 15

That is ~200 goals from the forwards. 45 goals from Dahlin (10-15), Risto (5-10), Miller (5-10), Montour (8-10) and the rest of the blueline is also reasonable. Those goal totals listed above are pretty much said players recent gpg average...imagine if a guy like Mitts really did break out in year 2 and became a 25-25 player? Or if Olofsson is an impact player from day 1 and puts up 20-25 goals as a rookie? Maybe Jack has some puck luck and gets 40 goals ripping the puck as often as he does. Maybe Sam has a great year in front of the net and pots 30. At the very least we can say is that we have an entire top 9 capable of all scoring 15+ goals. Hell, this doesn't even take into account Tage or Nylander. They could have a strong off season and establish themselves as true top 9 forwards this year.

This team has a lot more talent top to bottom since the last playoff teams we had under Ruff.

Now imagine if we cap the off season with a true 2c acquisition. A 20 goal, 50 point 2C to insulate Mitts one more year makes this team a wild card contender. One of Vesey, Sheary, or Mitts will have an above average (20+ goal season) imo. Anything can happen. A team who won 10 in a row and was in first at Thanksgiving finished bottom 6. A team in last on new years won the cup. Just get to the playoffs. Anything can happen.

 

[dkollidas]

And hopefully Krueger won't pay any attention to Mike Schop over at GR because that guy is about as clueless as it gets when it comes to hockey!

I mean, just brutal.

He’s a guy who supposedly is into the numbers, he thinks Larsson is terrible and shouldn’t be in the team. Bc he doesn’t score. You do realize Mike that analytics is about more than goals, right?

 

[CatsforReinhart]

July 12, 2018

To Arizona Coyotes Marian Hossa Vinnie Hinostroza Jordan Oesterle 3rd-round pick in 2019

To Chicago Blackhawks Marcus Kruger Andrew Campbell MacKenzie Entwistle Jordan Maletta 5th-round pick in 2019

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

August 2, 2018

To Buffalo Sabres Jeff Skinner

To Carolina Hurricanes Cliff Pu 2nd-round pick in 2019 3rd-round pick in 2020 6th-round pick in 2020

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

September 9, 2018

To Vegas Golden Knights Max Pacioretty*

To Montreal Canadiens Tomas Tatar* Nick Suzuki CBJ 2nd-round pick in 2019

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

September 11, 2018

To New York Rangers Adam McQuaid

To Boston Bruins Steven Kampfer 4th-round pick in 2019 conditional 7th-round pick in 2019

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

September 13, 2018

To San Jose Sharks Erik Karlsson Francis Perron

To Ottawa Senators Chris Tierney Dylan DeMelo Josh Norris Rudolfs Balcers conditional 1st-round pick in 2019 or      1st-round pick in 2020 conditional FLA 2nd-round pick in 2019 or      SJS 2nd-round pick in 2019 conditional 1st-round pick in 2021 or      2nd-round pick in 2021 conditional 1st-round pick

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Now make the list before July 12th. The poster's point is majority of nmovement happens before that date and he is right.

 

[Chainshot]

July 12, 2018

To Arizona Coyotes Marian Hossa Vinnie Hinostroza Jordan Oesterle 3rd-round pick in 2019

To Chicago Blackhawks Marcus Kruger Andrew Campbell MacKenzie Entwistle Jordan Maletta 5th-round pick in 2019

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

August 2, 2018

To Buffalo Sabres Jeff Skinner

To Carolina Hurricanes Cliff Pu 2nd-round pick in 2019 3rd-round pick in 2020 6th-round pick in 2020

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

September 9, 2018

To Vegas Golden Knights Max Pacioretty*

To Montreal Canadiens Tomas Tatar* Nick Suzuki CBJ 2nd-round pick in 2019

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

September 11, 2018

To New York Rangers Adam McQuaid

To Boston Bruins Steven Kampfer 4th-round pick in 2019 conditional 7th-round pick in 2019

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

September 13, 2018

To San Jose Sharks Erik Karlsson Francis Perron

To Ottawa Senators Chris Tierney Dylan DeMelo Josh Norris Rudolfs Balcers conditional 1st-round pick in 2019 or      1st-round pick in 2020 conditional FLA 2nd-round pick in 2019 or      SJS 2nd-round pick in 2019 conditional 1st-round pick in 2021 or      2nd-round pick in 2021 conditional 1st-round pick

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I think when I went through all of the three seasons past, there are three “needle movers moved in the summer months up to the start of the season. Of those they all had destination control. The rest are a collection of depth players and salary cap maneuvers. Your list illustrates this. People who are expecting something large are likely to be disappointed.

 

[Chainshot]

So the theme is guys with one year left on their contracts that teams are looking to unload for something?

Outside of Moves, you have EK, Max, and Skinner. All have destination control. The rest of those are bottom pairing guys or bottom 6 forwards Or have cap dump implications. It was the same the summer prior and there was almost zero moves of consequence after the expansion draft the year before that. Almost everyone’s roster construction is done. This commentary that “it’s only…” does not fit with league history. Thelist posted is really shy on good talent that doesn’t have destination control.

Edit to add what I pulled out of the post @Dingo44 was responding to:

Let's see... 11 moves last summer up to October 11th, of which only 3 were meaningful players (Skinner, Pacioretty, EK). Let's go back the year before that. Then there were exactly zero trades from this point that off-season until the start of camp and a grand total of 5 that happened between September 17th and October 6th featuring 0 players of consequence. Wait, how about the year before that? Oh, hey... two trades before the start of camp and luckily, one was Ottawa punking itself with Zibanejad for Brassard. And then there were two trades in camp, before the start of the regular season involving f*** all for players.

 

[OkimLom]

Outside of Moves, you have EK, Max, and Skinner. All have destination control. The rest of those are bottom pairing guys or bottom 6 forwards Or have cap dump implications. It was the same the summer prior and there was almost zero moves of consequence after the expansion draft the year before that. Almost everyone’s roster construction is done. This commentary that “it’s only…” does not fit with league history. Thelist posted is really shy on good talent that doesn’t have destination control.

Edit to add what I pulled out of the post @Dingo44 was responding to:

Let's see... 11 moves last summer up to October 11th, of which only 3 were meaningful players (Skinner, Pacioretty, EK). Let's go back the year before that. Then there were exactly zero trades from this point that off-season until the start of camp and a grand total of 5 that happened between September 17th and October 6th featuring 0 players of consequence. Wait, how about the year before that? Oh, hey... two trades before the start of camp and luckily, one was Ottawa punking itself with Zibanejad for Brassard. And then there were two trades in camp, before the start of the regular season involving **** all for players.

That's fair, was just looking at the guys moved. Didn't seem they had much term left (the main piece being moved; Skinner, EK, Max)

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

If anyone realistically thinks we can resolve the 2nd line center internally (and that includes Reinhart) they need to rewatch all 82 games last year.

They still won't have a legit 2C, but with Johansson and Reinhart they still can have a legit 2nd line. Whatever center is put between them won't have to drive the play, just be responsible in their own end and functional through to the O-zone. That would be much better than what they had last year whenever Reinhart was not with Eichel and Skinner.

 

[Dingo44]

Outside of Moves, you have EK, Max, and Skinner. All have destination control. The rest of those are bottom pairing guys or bottom 6 forwards Or have cap dump implications. It was the same the summer prior and there was almost zero moves of consequence after the expansion draft the year before that. Almost everyone’s roster construction is done. This commentary that “it’s only…” does not fit with league history. Thelist posted is really shy on good talent that doesn’t have destination control.

Edit to add what I pulled out of the post @Dingo44 was responding to:

Let's see... 11 moves last summer up to October 11th, of which only 3 were meaningful players (Skinner, Pacioretty, EK). Let's go back the year before that. Then there were exactly zero trades from this point that off-season until the start of camp and a grand total of 5 that happened between September 17th and October 6th featuring 0 players of consequence. Wait, how about the year before that? Oh, hey... two trades before the start of camp and luckily, one was Ottawa punking itself with Zibanejad for Brassard. And then there were two trades in camp, before the start of the regular season involving **** all for players.

Moves are made after July 8. Also, this summer is unlike other summers. Again, there are a TON of unsigned high-end RFA's, RFA's tend to have more power than before, there are teams who have to MUST make moves before the season starts, and we do have a couple cards in our pocket.

We were all waiting for Botts to do something, and then he made a very good signing less than 48 hours ago. No way he's done.

I actually did go around to a lot of the other team's boards and they are all saying the same thing - they're all frustrated that their GM hasn't done enough. ALL of them. Steve Yzerman is getting C and D grades for the offseason so far on the Detroit board, and I consider him the best current GM in the NHL.

Lots of situations still to be resolved before the season starts - Vegas gets under the cap, Vegas makes a decision on Gusev, Marner gets signed (or doesn't), Nashville moves out salary to sign guys like Josi, TB has to fit in Point's contract, etc.

I'm not promising that some amazing deal is left in Botts' arsenal, but I'm also not in panic mode on now July 8.

Maybe a couple of weeks of complaining about Eichel's contract in HIS thread will give people something to complain about in the meantime. That one's always fun.

 

[Dubi Doo]

If anyone realistically thinks we can resolve the 2nd line center internally (and that includes Reinhart) they need to rewatch all 82 games last year.

Interesting insight given we've never witnessed Reinhart at center for an extended period of time.

 

[Dingo44]

Now make the list before July 12th. The poster's point is majority of nmovement happens before that date and he is right.

Of course it does. But I saw his point as not much happens after July 1, not that the majority of movement happens before the current date. No one is not arguing that.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I don't get the impatience to dump players right now either. It won't be hard to trade Scandella, Sheary, Nelson, or Bogosian...as long as you care more about ditching them than getting a decent return (3rd for Scandella and Sheary at best). Wilson, Sobotka, and Hunwick can get waived any time. Even if most of these guys stay on the roster to 2020, it means prospects are getting more time in Rochester during a season when the Sabres aren't winning anything anyway. I would be fine waiting for a prospect to prove they have to be in Buffalo before trading/waiving a guy to open a roster spot. Really, that's how it should work for any team.

 

[Dreakon13]

I would be fine waiting for a prospect to prove they have to be in Buffalo before trading/waiving a guy to open a roster spot. Really, that's how it should work for any team.

People seem to get hung up on the difference between bringing a prospect onto the Sabres because they're actually ready, and bringing them onto the Sabres just because they're better than Sobotka.

The former is how it should work for any team... the latter is basically how this team operated up until Botts and it stunted the development of many young players here, most of whom either never recovered or went on to figure things out with other teams.

 

[Aladyyn]

People seem to get hung up on the difference between bringing a prospect onto the Sabres because they're actually ready, and bringing them onto the Sabres just because they're better than Sobotka.

The former is how it should work for any team... the latter is basically how this team operated up until Botts and it stunted the development of many young players here, who either never recovered or went on to figure things out with other teams.

Hahahaha.

 

[Dreakon13]

Hahahaha.

You see... this is why the vague, one word replies should be subject to some kinda reprimanding. I'd be interested to know what the funny part is so I can respond to it but this tells me nothing.

I'm guessing it's because Botts is rushing Mittelstadt and Thompson into the lineup? He's gone to great lengths to keep Rochester going and everyone else off of the Sabres, much to our dismay... so I don't think I'm wrong despite those two.

And there had been a revolving door of prospects and younger guys prior to these two years or so that were rushed into the lineup, or placed too high in the lineup, due to the tank and never really reached their potential here/saw their development derailed. It's part of the reason Rochester always stunk up until recently.

 

[Aladyyn]

You see... this is why the vague, one word replies should be subject to some kinda reprimanding. I'd be interested to know what the funny part is so I can respond to it but this tells me nothing.

I'm guessing it's because Botts is rushing Mittelstadt and Thompson into the lineup? He's gone to great lengths to keep Rochester going and everyone else off of the Sabres, much to our dismay... so I don't think I'm wrong despite those two.

And there had been a revolving door of prospects and younger guys prior to these two years or so that were rushed into the lineup, or placed too high in the lineup, due to the tank and never really reached their potential here/saw their development derailed. It's part of the reason Rochester always stunk up until recently.

Yes, Botterill rushed Thompson and Mittelstadt while keeping actual NHL ready players in the minors.

Please name some players Murray rushed into the NHL.

 

[TehDoak]

July 12, 2018

To Arizona Coyotes Marian Hossa Vinnie Hinostroza Jordan Oesterle 3rd-round pick in 2019

To Chicago Blackhawks Marcus Kruger Andrew Campbell MacKenzie Entwistle Jordan Maletta 5th-round pick in 2019

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

August 2, 2018

To Buffalo Sabres Jeff Skinner

To Carolina Hurricanes Cliff Pu 2nd-round pick in 2019 3rd-round pick in 2020 6th-round pick in 2020

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

September 9, 2018

To Vegas Golden Knights Max Pacioretty*

To Montreal Canadiens Tomas Tatar* Nick Suzuki CBJ 2nd-round pick in 2019

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

September 11, 2018

To New York Rangers Adam McQuaid

To Boston Bruins Steven Kampfer 4th-round pick in 2019 conditional 7th-round pick in 2019

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

September 13, 2018

To San Jose Sharks Erik Karlsson Francis Perron

To Ottawa Senators Chris Tierney Dylan DeMelo Josh Norris Rudolfs Balcers conditional 1st-round pick in 2019 or      1st-round pick in 2020 conditional FLA 2nd-round pick in 2019 or      SJS 2nd-round pick in 2019 conditional 1st-round pick in 2021 or      2nd-round pick in 2021 conditional 1st-round pick

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

And to counter point there, here are the trades for 2017 After july 4th and before labor day:

I mean, its a 31 team league. 5 trades over 3 months is still pretty dead. And even then, Three of the deals you mention are post labor day (was Sept 3rd last year).

The chance we see a Risto deal or us acquiring a 2nd line center before labor day or even training camp are very slim.

 

[Dreakon13]

Please name some players Murray rushed into the NHL.

Murray gave up most of our future for big name NHL players. There wasn't much to rush if he wanted to. Baptiste, Bailey and Fasching didn't fall into that "at least they're better than Sobotka" category with our roster at the time... Nylander and Guhle weren't rushed but were also just barely hanging in the AHL.

I guess Regier was most guilty of it though, to be honest. Probably by design since he was in charge of the initial teardown.