Speculation: 2019-20 Roster, Cap, Trade Discussion (MOD WARNING POST #542)

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Yea if we’re going back to the time of the expansion draft I’m pretty sure almost everyone was in consensus that what we lost was not as bad as losing Vatanen and certainly not as bad as losing Fowler. It’s easy now to say he could’ve just traded them, what if there was no deal to be made because teams were worrying about their own expansion lists or the value wasn’t good enough. At the time Theodore had question marks, and Fowler is still the better defenseman by a mile. Vatanen may be closer now. Not buying out Bieksa on the other hand was completely idiotic

Fowler isn't better than theodore by more than a mile?
what? Id take theodore pretty easily over fowler. Even w/o contracts involved.

Like ill be honest at the time of the expansion draft, I was okay with losing theodore…. as I thought Montour + Larsson had more upside(and I thought Larsson would be fighting for a top 4 spot by now). Admittedly I was wrong... Larsson(still think hell be solid) hasn't really progressed as fast as I thought he would, and Montour while being exciting didn't fit this system at all... I think he can be good on the right team but Anaheim wasn't a good fit for him. Since the expansion draft I feel like fowler stock has gone down.... he just hasn't moved forward as a player and you could argue hes gotten much worse in most aspects of the game, and theodore has become a very solid dmen. Plays 2nd most mins on a very good vegas team, now hes a bit sheltered... but I think he is a legit 2/3 offensive defencemen, which is basically something we lack or could use at this point. Him and Lindholm would be a good 1 - 2 punch on the left side.

 

[JohnnyDrama]

Fowler isn't better than theodore by more than a mile?
what? Id take theodore pretty easily over fowler. Even w/o contracts involved.

Like ill be honest at the time of the expansion draft, I was okay with losing theodore…. as I thought Montour + Larsson had more upside(and I thought Larsson would be fighting for a top 4 spot by now). Admittedly I was wrong... Larsson(still think hell be solid) hasn't really progressed as fast as I thought he would, and Montour while being exciting didn't fit this system at all... I think he can be good on the right team but Anaheim wasn't a good fit for him. Since the expansion draft I feel like fowler stock has gone down.... he just hasn't moved forward as a player and you could argue hes gotten much worse in most aspects of the game, and theodore has become a very solid dmen. Plays 2nd most mins on a very good vegas team, now hes a bit sheltered... but I think he is a legit 2/3 offensive defencemen, which is basically something we lack or could use at this point. Him and Lindholm would be a good 1 - 2 punch on the left side.

Fair enough but agree to disagree. I’d love to have Theodore on the team, he’s good offensively and great on the powerplay but I still think Fowler is much better. Theodore is sheltered and still gets exposed defensively. I’m sure a lot of people will agree with you as I’m one of the few that like Fowler

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Fair enough but agree to disagree. I’d love to have Theodore on the team, he’s good offensively and great on the powerplay but I still think Fowler is much better. Theodore is sheltered and still gets exposed defensively. I’m sure a lot of people will agree with you as I’m one of the few that like Fowler

Not so much dislike, but theo is a better fit w/ this team.

 

[AngelDuck]

I'd love to know what metric is being used to show Fowler is much better than Theodore

 

[Anaheim4ever]

Theodore on pace to finish with more goals this season than Fowler ever has in a season.
Theodore is trending upward in each year he's played.
If Theodore scores 3 more goals, he'll finish with 14 on the year, 1 more than Hampus career high 13.

I'd love to see the Next Coach give more offensive/PP role to Lindholm, he has the ability to get shots thru traffic & in limited PP time this year he's done better than all the other Dmen the team has used.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

I'd love to know what metric is being used to show Fowler is much better than Theodore

There isn't one Theodore is an ice tilter. Whatever flaws he has are made up for by him constantly having his team playiing offense

 

[pbgoalie]

Well, Theodore has also been coached by Gallant. I liked Theos upside when we lost him, but I believe our coaching has really hurt our D development

 

[AngelDuck]

Well, Theodore has also been coached by Gallant. I liked Theos upside when we lost him, but I believe our coaching has really hurt our D development

This is fair. I agree

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

I'd love to know what metric is being used to show Fowler is much better than Theodore

Probably the ones that rank Fowler as one of the best defensemen in the league over the past few years.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

There isn't one Theodore is an ice tilter. Whatever flaws he has are made up for by him constantly having his team playiing offense

This is one of the bigger misconceptions about possession metrics. It really isnt "constantly" playing offense, you're talking about a difference of 1-2 minutes tops. Which does add up and is still significant, but the time in his own zone and how a defenseman does there is also quite significant.

 

[Paul4587]

Probably the ones that rank Fowler as one of the best defensemen in the league over the past few years.

Is that the guy from Sportsnet that ranks Petry as better than Weber and a top Dman man in the league? You don’t actually believe that do you?

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Is that the guy from Sportsnet that ranks Petry as better than Weber and a top Dman man in the league? You don’t actually believe that do you?

Read it on the internet how could it not be true

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Is that the guy from Sportsnet that ranks Petry as better than Weber and a top Dman man in the league? You don’t actually believe that do you?

Never said that I necessarily believed it, just pointed out it exists. But while we're here, why's it so unbelievable? The guy always notes it seems odd to see Fowler so high yet lays out the case for it.

The Weber comp is much less controversial to me as Weber isn't what he once was and what he once was might have never been all it was cracked up to be.

 

[Paul4587]

Never said that I necessarily believed it, just pointed out it exists. But while we're here, why's it so unbelievable? The guy always notes it seems odd to see Fowler so high yet lays out the case for it.

The Weber comp is much less controversial to me as Weber isn't what he once was and what he once was might have never been all it was cracked up to be.

It's as unbelievable as much as the stats that point to Fowler being a third pair D are equally as unbelievable. At the end of the day he's likely in the middle. Fowler is top 5-10 in the league at skating the puck out of his own zone which i think are the metrics that writer favors. Which I agree with. Overall I think he's somewhere in the middle of those who overrate him and those who underrate him.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

It's as unbelievable as much as the stats that point to Fowler being a third pair D are equally as unbelievable. At the end of the day he's likely in the middle. Fowler is top 5-10 in the league at skating the puck out of his own zone which i think the metrics that writer favors. Which I agree with. Overall I think he's somewhere in the middle of those who overrate him and those who underrate him.

I dont think he really favors it, he includes quite a few, and it just so happens zone exits are one, which makes sense.

I also don't necessarily think you're wrong with any of what you said, but it definitely comes off as trying to fit it with the consensus, which is something Berkshire clearly doesn't remotely care about(not that it's presented as an opinion, but he still clearly doesn't care about that), which I really appreciate. You don't see that as much as a guy would like, although it is quite understandable.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

It's as unbelievable as much as the stats that point to Fowler being a third pair D are equally as unbelievable. At the end of the day he's likely in the middle. Fowler is top 5-10 in the league at skating the puck out of his own zone which i think are the metrics that writer favors. Which I agree with. Overall I think he's somewhere in the middle of those who overrate him and those who underrate him.

Unfortunately Cam has never developed a high offensive IQ or feel. He had a play against the Jets where we had a PP, had possession and we're just starting to get them tired ..he receives a pass and instead of waiting for something to come available he shoots a soft wrist shot with no traffic which the goalie easily stops and play ends. He does this all the time. It's just a passive play which is just indicative of how he is normally.

 

[duckpuck]

Fair enough but agree to disagree. I’d love to have Theodore on the team, he’s good offensively and great on the powerplay but I still think Fowler is much better. Theodore is sheltered and still gets exposed defensively. I’m sure a lot of people will agree with you as I’m one of the few that like Fowler

Not so much dislike, but theo is a better fit w/ this team.

I'd love to know what metric is being used to show Fowler is much better than Theodore

Theodore on pace to finish with more goals this season than Fowler ever has in a season.
Theodore is trending upward in each year he's played.
If Theodore scores 3 more goals, he'll finish with 14 on the year, 1 more than Hampus career high 13.

I'd love to see the Next Coach give more offensive/PP role to Lindholm, he has the ability to get shots thru traffic & in limited PP time this year he's done better than all the other Dmen the team has used.

There is an excellent article on the atlantic that evaluated how defensemen for all teams are utilized - who gets the hard minutes and who is sheltered.

The short answer is Theodore is massively sheltered with LV, whereas Fowler is not. Theodore is very good offensively - that has value. But playing defense is pretty important too.

I think is correct to say Theodore would not have developed or produced to the same extent on the Ducks. He fits well on a team like LV that drives possession and can hide his deficiencies. Fowler is more well rounded and would play reasonably well in pretty much any system.

Dellow: Matchup data for defencemen from all 31 teams to...

 

[KaseMeOutside]

There is an excellent article on the atlantic that evaluated how defensemen for all teams are utilized - who gets the hard minutes and who is sheltered.

The short answer is Theodore is massively sheltered with LV, whereas Fowler is not. Theodore is very good offensively - that has value. But playing defense is pretty important too.

I think is correct to say Theodore would not have developed or produced to the same extent on the Ducks. He fits well on a team like LV that drives possession and can hide his deficiencies. Fowler is more well rounded and would play reasonably well in pretty much any system.

Dellow: Matchup data for defencemen from all 31 teams to...

If Theo wouldn't have developed the same way here that's an indictment of our management. Maybe youre right, for whatever reason we don't develop offense well from our D

 

[duxfan1101]

According to CapFriendly, Steel and Sherwood recalled

 

[bsu]

I wonder what Zucker would cost.

 

[Exit Dose]

According to CapFriendly, Steel and Sherwood recalled

I'm happy to see Sherwood back. He looked hungry during pre-season.

 

[Static]

I'm happy to see Sherwood back. He looked hungry during pre-season.

That was from March, heh.

 

[anezthes]

I'm happy to see Sherwood back. He looked hungry during pre-season.

March 23rd.

 

[Surfandhockey]

Lundestrum sent back down

 

[Exit Dose]

That was from March, heh.

March 23rd.

Haha. I probably should have caught on with Steel being included.