2019-20 General Lightning Discussion - Part 2: Charted Territory

[HoseEmDown]

I am not buying it. Spezza has been gone 6 years, Turris has been gone 3 years, Zibanajad has been gone 4 years. This is Pageau's 7th year in the league his best year was his 2nd year at 43 points with all those guys there since he has been up and down the line-up due to performance and need. and in the last 4 seasons his best year has been 33 points 16-17. His nymbers will be up this season due to playing 2nd line by no better option available. He will be a rental anywhere he goes a this point and putting Joseph, Verhage, Stephens on his wing is not going to increase any performance by them and would drop Pageau's goal production he is not a center that has very many asst's. If the need is center in a pinch slide Stammer bad to center until Point, Johnson or Cirelli get back in the line up. There is nothing wrong with the centers its the wings where there in need. Pageau is smallish for a center as well if anything this team needs bigger bodies with some grit more than a mismatch at center he will not beat out the top three centers we have and putting him on the 4th line would do nothing.

I agree with you about Dillion he no better than what we put out there.

13-14 Spezza, Turris and Zibanejad were all there. 14-15 Turris and Zibanejad. 15-16 Zibanejad and Turris. 16-17 Turris and Brassard. 17-18 Brassard, Turris then Duchene. 18-19 would have been his first year of getting a top 6 chance but he missed half the year with injury. This year with that chance his is producing like a 2C. His production hasn't been that far off what you'd expect from a 3C. If we bring him in it's to be a 3C and he's very good in that role. If he was on the 3rd line he would play with Killorn and not Stephens, Joseph or Verheaghe so he would have somesom else to share the scoring load with. We may have 3 centers who are better than him in Stamkos, Point and Cirelli but we aren't running them 1,2,3 we have them all in the top 6 so there's a hole at 3C. Johnson isn't a C anymore and I don't know if he's better anymore. Even in the 4th line he would be a big upgrade on Paquette.

 

[Byrddog]

13-14 Spezza, Turris and Zibanejad were all there. 14-15 Turris and Zibanejad. 15-16 Zibanejad and Turris. 16-17 Turris and Brassard. 17-18 Brassard, Turris then Duchene. 18-19 would have been his first year of getting a top 6 chance but he missed half the year with injury. This year with that chance his is producing like a 2C. His production hasn't been that far off what you'd expect from a 3C. If we bring him in it's to be a 3C and he's very good in that role. If he was on the 3rd line he would play with Killorn and not Stephens, Joseph or Verheaghe so he would have somesom else to share the scoring load with. We may have 3 centers who are better than him in Stamkos, Point and Cirelli but we aren't running them 1,2,3 we have them all in the top 6 so there's a hole at 3C. Johnson isn't a C anymore and I don't know if he's better anymore. Even in the 4th line he would be a big upgrade on Paquette.

I am not arguing he would not be a upgrade to Paquette scoring wise. Johnny is still a C but is misplaced on the wing and that is his issue scoring IMO. I doubt a move is even under consideration for him anyway here. I will say this 19 goals far exceeds what should be expected for a 3c while in the 3c role he was about average I will give him that 30 to 35 points is whats expected for a 3rd liner except on this team. This fanbase is spoiled and expect every forward to have 25 g and another 25 assts that is the issue. We have a loaded team now with weakness on the 3rd line due to salary cap. Our young guys are not NHL ready when they are all out together if broken up on to other lines they weaken that line. None of them have stepped up like Cirelli, Point did in their first year. With the exception of Joseph the other three that have been tried are promising just not ready. Somehow we need to put Killer and Yanni on that 3rd with Johnny to make a productive 3rd but we will leave holes elsewhere then That's why I would prefer to go for another winger. Moving Paquette to wing to clear a center spot for Pageau is pointless, now if the guy could produce on the wing that's a different story but I would expect his numbers to return to the leverl he was at prior to getting top 6 minutes. Remember last year we had a top 6 guy that Coop moved down and he failed here JT is a much more dynamic player than Pageau. Any guy we bring in needs to be over 6' also we can not ice another guy to our 5 undersized guys. One player we missed out on that would have been a perfect fit was Boyle he went unsigned and the Panthers got smart and picked him up we really need that big body he is playing 3rd 4th line minutes and pacing at 12 to 15 goals and 30 to 35 points still wins battles along the board and goes to the dirty areas. But I assure you the Panthers will not trade the guy.

 

[Major4Boarding]

It's Garrioch, so tread lightly but it's out there

A league executive noted Saturday that if the Senators do put centre Jean-Gabriel Pageau on the market before the deadline there will be no shortage of interest. The expectation is the club will have discussions with Pageau, an unrestricted free agent on July 1, to see what he’d like on a new deal and then make a decision. A proven playoff performer and a perfect third-line centre/penalty killer for any team headed to the post-season, the belief is in excess of 15 teams will show interest in Pageau. Anybody going to the playoffs is going to kick the tires because he knows his role and plays the right way. The belief is if GM Pierre Dorion decides to move Pageau, the asking price will be a first-round pick and a prospect. …

 

[Master P]

So would ya'll be ok with a 1st + Alexander Volkov for Pageau?

 

[HoseEmDown]

So would ya'll be ok with a 1st + Alexander Volkov for Pageau?

No. A 1st + a lesser prospect like Yan, Spencer or Perbix type instead. I would move Volkov + 2nd that would become a 1st if we make the SCF.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Not interested in moving that 1st, ours or Vancouver's, for a rental. I like the idea of a 2nd>1st/SCF in this year's draft + a prospect though. I'm thinking long range on those 1st's. As in, we may need 2021's 1st rd pick to throw at Seattle next summer to either entice them to either take someone (salary dump) or keep them away from someone we don't want to lose. Better to snag two picks in the first 31 of this year's draft if that's a plan.

 

[Hoek]

I wonder if Melnyk is still gonna be douchey about trading with us. Supposedly the reason we didn't get Karlsson in a trade. Because, you know, it's so critical not to help a division rival when you're bottom of said division.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

That is true, if we do plan on giving Seattle a 1st round pick we probably will keep both 1st round picks this year.

That said the pressure in this years playoffs is HUGE

 

[Todd1a]

So would ya'll be ok with a 1st + Alexander Volkov for Pageau?

nope I sure wouldn’t

 

[JFleegs]

Not a fan of going for another undersized center in Pageau. Not sure why people want him? Would much rather someone like Krieder.

 

[BowDownToVasilevskiy]

Bryant was one of the most influential athletes.

 

[Master P]

nope I sure wouldn’t

I guess that means its a good trade then.

 

[Todd1a]

I guess that means its a good trade then.

you really think our management will trade a 1st and Volkov for Pageau? a rental ?

 

[DFC]

It's Garrioch, so tread lightly but it's out there

I feel like "1st + prospect" is the asking price on literally everybody. And then we have to wait until the TDL to find out the real price.

 

[Zwui21]

I feel like "1st + prospect" is the asking price on literally everybody. And then we have to wait until the TDL to find out the real price.

Toffoli's price is a 2nd + prospect.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Toffoli's price is a 2nd + prospect.

I like the price on Toffoli if we are going for a winger much more than the price that Kreider will command. But we are running Paquette as our 3C right now which is a terrible idea to go into the playoffs with. We really could use a 3C if we are keeping Cirelli and Johnson in the top 6. If we move Johnson to 3C or even Cirelli back down to play with Killorn then I would look at wingers especially Toffoli because of the price.

 

[Byrddog]

I like the price on Toffoli if we are going for a winger much more than the price that Kreider will command. But we are running Paquette as our 3C right now which is a terrible idea to go into the playoffs with. We really could use a 3C if we are keeping Cirelli and Johnson in the top 6. If we move Johnson to 3C or even Cirelli back down to play with Killorn then I would look at wingers especially Toffoli because of the price.

This is what should be done. If the Price could somehow be Joseph and a 2nd the values is there.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

I like the price on Toffoli if we are going for a winger much more than the price that Kreider will command. But we are running Paquette as our 3C right now which is a terrible idea to go into the playoffs with. We really could use a 3C if we are keeping Cirelli and Johnson in the top 6. If we move Johnson to 3C or even Cirelli back down to play with Killorn then I would look at wingers especially Toffoli because of the price.

Honestly with deep enough wingers

Ie: the addition of Krieder, our center depth is fine.

Paquette and Stephens both play a steady reliable game.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Honestly with deep enough wingers

Ie: the addition of Krieder, our center depth is fine.

Paquette and Stephens both play a steady reliable game.

Paquette has 9 points in 66 career playoff games, if we are going with him as our 3C we are in big trouble. Stephens has no NHL playoff experience so he shouldn't be relied on too much to be that effective himself.

 

[Sky04]

Paquette has 9 points in 66 career playoff games, if we are going with him as our 3C we are in big trouble. Stephens has no NHL playoff experience so he shouldn't be relied on too much to be that effective himself.

Paquette's effectiveness in the playoffs isn't about points..... he's been one of the most consistent players playing up to his role in the post-season, his line has been the shutdown line on multiple runs with a good physical game, if they can provide that while we stack the top-6 we'll be fine.

We don't need massive scoring from all 3 lines. If they stack up the top-6 like they're doing now and can't get it done with that much firepower up front they don't deserve to win. As always with this team, it will be about the stars showing up in the post-season.

 

[DFC]

Paquette's effectiveness in the playoffs isn't about points..... he's been one of the most consistent players playing up to his role in the post-season, his line has been the shutdown line on multiple runs with a good physical game, if they can provide that while we stack the top-6 we'll be fine.

We don't need massive scoring from all 3 lines. If they stack up the top-6 like they're doing now and can't get it done with that much firepower up front they don't deserve to win. As always with this team, it will be about the stars showing up in the post-season.

Yeah, Paquette's probably the only guy who's never fell far short of expectations in the playoffs, because we don't expect him to score. He gives everything he has, and that's all you can ask from a guy like that.

We have one big improvement on the wings this year over last year, and that's Palat. If he can play with grit in the playoffs, that will hopefully open things up for the top-6 the way it did in 2015 when TKO pushed us to the SCF. I really think Palat was a bigger part of that than we realize, even if his own numbers were modest. That was the best playoffs we saw from either Johnson or Kucherov, and I don't think it's a coincidence that they had a winger who could muck it out.

Which always brings me back to Kreider. If we have Palat, Kreider, and Killorn down the left side, there's just no excuse for not scoring goals 5v5. Those guys are all skilled enough to play with our finesse players, and all tough enough to muscle out a few battles.

Kreider gives us chemistry options, IMO. Even if we have a third line, for instance, of Kreider-Johnson-Gourde. Something like that would be hard to handle for 2nd and 3rd pairings. I'm not even talking about a top-6 line. But obviously that option is there too. Or we could create another two-way shutdown line (Palat - Point - Cirelli ?) and yet still have two scoring lines to go with it. It just opens so many options.

 

[Sky04]

Yeah, Paquette's probably the only guy who's never fell far short of expectations in the playoffs, because we don't expect him to score. He gives everything he has, and that's all you can ask from a guy like that.

We have one big improvement on the wings this year over last year, and that's Palat. If he can play with grit in the playoffs, that will hopefully open things up for the top-6 the way it did in 2015 when TKO pushed us to the SCF. I really think Palat was a bigger part of that than we realize, even if his own numbers were modest. That was the best playoffs we saw from either Johnson or Kucherov, and I don't think it's a coincidence that they had a winger who could muck it out.

Which always brings me back to Kreider. If we have Palat, Kreider, and Killorn down the left side, there's just no excuse for not scoring goals 5v5. Those guys are all skilled enough to play with our finesse players, and all tough enough to muscle out a few battles.

Kreider gives us chemistry options, IMO. Even if we have a third line, for instance, of Kreider-Johnson-Gourde. Something like that would be hard to handle for 2nd and 3rd pairings. I'm not even talking about a top-6 line. But obviously that option is there too. Or we could create another two-way shutdown line (Palat - Point - Cirelli ?) and yet still have two scoring lines to go with it. It just opens so many options.

If we had Kreider I would push Palat down because Killorn is doing too well right now in his role. 3rd line could be Palat-Paquette-Johnson, that's enough skill to have some scoring but their job should be primarily not to get scored on. We'd have a weaker 4th line but Cooper should recognize that and minimize their ice time, Gourde isn't that effective in the playoffs anyways and shouldn't be out there that often.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Why is Paquette getting a pass for poor playoff numbers? Sure he doesn't need to be a big time scorer but his production is not that good. I would also prefer a 3ed line that can score as the other team will have three lines to worry about so they can't just load up their top 4 D. Paquette is a very good 4th liner but he shouldn't be anywhere near our 3rd line in the playoffs.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Paquette has 9 points in 66 career playoff games, if we are going with him as our 3C we are in big trouble. Stephens has no NHL playoff experience so he shouldn't be relied on too much to be that effective himself.

I agree with your take on Stephens.

your take on Paquette? Not so much.

like I said if our wingers are producing we need hard nose responsible two way centers.

we don’t need Steven Stamkos point scoring centers


So all in all if we have DEEP enough wingers our center depth is fine.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Why is Paquette getting a pass for poor playoff numbers? Sure he doesn't need to be a big time scorer but his production is not that good. I would also prefer a 3ed line that can score as the other team will have three lines to worry about so they can't just load up their top 4 D. Paquette is a very good 4th liner but he shouldn't be anywhere near our 3rd line in the playoffs.

Krieder Point Kuch
Killorn Cirelli Stamkos
Palat Stephens Johnson


That’s a pretty deep top nine. I don’t see your issues in adding a winger