2019-20 General Lightning Discussion - Part 2: Charted Territory

[Max McBolt]

Pageau is the trade bait player who would make the biggest impact on the Bolts this year because he is the best two-way center available.
It think he could be a good fit here as he’s very versatile.

With Cirelli now playing in the top 6, we could definitively use an upgrade at center in the bottom 6.

Point
Cirelli
Pageau
Paquette

That’s some nice looking center depth heading into the playoffs.

Second most impact would probably be Kreider because of much needed size and grit in the top 6.
Kreider being a certified a-hole would certainly fit the bill and be useful comes playoff time.

 

[God King Fudge]

I think they just need to leave the roster alone this year. We've sent out a lot of future pieces and things are pretty slim. Another year of chasing a piece that doesn't get the job done is going to be really damaging.

 

[Five Alarm Fire]

I think they just need to leave the roster alone this year. We've sent out a lot of future pieces and things are pretty slim. Another year of chasing a piece that doesn't get the job done is going to be really damaging.

We did that last year but really didn't have a position to upgrade, and we were running over the league. Unfortunately there was no trade that could have prevented last year's disaster.

This year we could probably add a player to our bottom 6. I like each of Stephens and Verhaeghe, but really they're replacement level players. If we can get a cheap upgrade, it's worth it. Guys like Kreider, Pageau, etc. are pure rentals and are going to cost a pretty penny. Pageau makes me pause because of how dynamic he is, and he can take some of the load off of Cirelli.

 

[LightningStrikes]

Are we happy with McBackup? I haven't been able to catch a game of his (or in general).

He hasn’t had a lot of games since we got “good” except for the tail end of a b2b or so. Got hung out to dry more than a few times early in the season. Hard to say.

 

[DFC]

We can go shopping this TDL if we need to. We'll have assets coming in when we shed money.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

first obviously out of boredom people on facebook said who is your top six protections on bolts

mine stamkos kucherov point hedman sergachev vasy next would be cirelli

SERGE IS A MUST at this point for me.... how do you all feel on serge is he absolutely protected now after this showing??? i love cirelli so that is hard too just think we can cover him with stephens in time where NO one is gonna bring sergachevs upside moving forward especially on offense ....

next id love pageau why brought it up and to anyone saying we should stay as are??????? that didnt work well last year and yes only thing we coulda done is move a goalie to make much difference since both went down lol.....

but adding a d last year?? might have helped a lot....

this year people always saying we need to add a d???? i love our d corps right now im good moving forward

kreider is ok id rather have pageau and id honestly really like a gritty 4th line guy over kreider myself.... who knows maybe him and stamkos click and im an idiot

 

[2020 Cup Champions]

Would anyone be interested in scooping Georgiev as a playoff back up? Could be good to have a hungry young guy looking to prove himself. What's your highest price, if you do?

 

[LTIR Trickery]

Would anyone be interested in scooping Georgiev as a playoff back up? Could be good to have a hungry young guy looking to prove himself. What's your highest price, if you do?

Nothing, why would we trade for a goaltender like him?

 

[LTIR Trickery]

first obviously out of boredom people on facebook said who is your top six protections on bolts

mine stamkos kucherov point hedman sergachev vasy next would be cirelli

SERGE IS A MUST at this point for me.... how do you all feel on serge is he absolutely protected now after this showing??? i love cirelli so that is hard too just think we can cover him with stephens in time where NO one is gonna bring sergachevs upside moving forward especially on offense ....

next id love pageau why brought it up and to anyone saying we should stay as are??????? that didnt work well last year and yes only thing we coulda done is move a goalie to make much difference since both went down lol.....

but adding a d last year?? might have helped a lot....

this year people always saying we need to add a d???? i love our d corps right now im good moving forward

kreider is ok id rather have pageau and id honestly really like a gritty 4th line guy over kreider myself.... who knows maybe him and stamkos click and im an idiot

I wouldn't mind having an insurance policy on defense.

 

[The Macho King]

I wouldn't mind having an insurance policy on defense.

I wouldn't hate it, but I think the prices there are going to be high.

I don't know - the best names on the market (Kreider, Pageau, and to a lesser extent Toffoli) scratch an itch, but I'm worried about the cost. A first seems like a lot - although I wouldn't have a conditional second that can upgrade based on how deep we go.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I think they just need to leave the roster alone this year. We've sent out a lot of future pieces and things are pretty slim. Another year of chasing a piece that doesn't get the job done is going to be really damaging.

Then again if we lose and do nothing, out come the pitchforks for that. Ill say this about SY, he made smart moves that he knew the team needed to make to contend. Im hoping JBB is the same way and will make smart moves that make sense and doesnt just make moves to make moves. Also SY didnt like rentals. Not saying we should avoid them but it was good to know that if we traded assets for another that we get to keep that asset for a while.

 

[Sky04]

I wouldn't hate it, but I think the prices there are going to be high.

I don't know - the best names on the market (Kreider, Pageau, and to a lesser extent Toffoli) scratch an itch, but I'm worried about the cost. A first seems like a lot - although I wouldn't have a conditional second that can upgrade based on how deep we go.

Normally sure but the Lightning are stocked well with 2020 picks and in a cup contending window, as of now we have the Canucks 1st round pick and 10 in total for this draft, a 1st round pick (ours) is a worthwhile risk this year.

 

[HoseEmDown]

I am not a fan of Toffoli and would not pay a 2nd round pick for this guy.

I would prefer to have Palat, Johnson, Gourde or Killorn play in the Top 6 before Toffoli.

Unless we target him as depth player in case we run into some injuries down the stretch, and the price is very low, like a 3rd round pick or something.

I would aim for a better return than Toffoli for a 2nd round pick / 2nd +, or I would just keep the pick.

Just give me some Gourde instead and give him opportunities to help rebuild his confidence.

The reason I like Toffoli is because he is a RH shot. The current bottom 6 only has Stephens as a RH shot and he most likely gets sent down in we bring someone in. He would also be cheaper to acquire than Kreider something like a 2nd + instead of a 1st +. Career wise Toffoli and Kreider are very similar with Kreider scoring about 2 goals more a year. Our top 6 seems set even though Kreider could bump Johnson down to the bottom 6 I think we need more bottom 6 help then up top.

Pageau is also a RH shot so would be preferred to Kreider as well. He would cost a 1st + as well so not sure I want to pay that much. Killorn - Pagaeu - Gourde could be a really good 3rd line as well. This is a very good draft so would prefer to not move a 1st if possible but a 2nd I would.

 

[DFC]

The reason I like Toffoli is because he is a RH shot. The current bottom 6 only has Stephens as a RH shot and he most likely gets sent down in we bring someone in. He would also be cheaper to acquire than Kreider something like a 2nd + instead of a 1st +. Career wise Toffoli and Kreider are very similar with Kreider scoring about 2 goals more a year. Our top 6 seems set even though Kreider could bump Johnson down to the bottom 6 I think we need more bottom 6 help then up top.

Pageau is also a RH shot so would be preferred to Kreider as well. He would cost a 1st + as well so not sure I want to pay that much. Killorn - Pagaeu - Gourde could be a really good 3rd line as well. This is a very good draft so would prefer to not move a 1st if possible but a 2nd I would.

I still see Kreider as the better fit, mainly because he brings size that would work on any of the top 3 lines. We're a little weaker on the left side.

Kreider - Stamkos - Kucherov -- is pretty much the perfect line, if Stamkos and Kuch have their heads on straight. Let Kreider create havoc while those two make plays. Still leaves Point, Cirelli, Killorn, Palat, and Johnson for scoring depth. Almost undoubtedly the best depth in the league at that point.

Definitely more expensive, but I'd like to see us go for it. He's the one guy who I think would be a major improvement, and also would help balance out our top-six. He's skilled enough to play with our skilled guys but brings an element not a single one of them have.

 

[waterboy65]

Kreider is the perfect fit- this team needs a power forward on its top 2 lines in the worst way to combat the PF matchups that will await with matchups against the Caps, Pens and Jackets (if they happen). Maroon is a nice PF on the 4th line but we are going to need someone who creates space on those top 2 lines!

 

[HoseEmDown]

I still see Kreider as the better fit, mainly because he brings size that would work on any of the top 3 lines. We're a little weaker on the left side.

Kreider - Stamkos - Kucherov -- is pretty much the perfect line, if Stamkos and Kuch have their heads on straight. Let Kreider create havoc while those two make plays. Still leaves Point, Cirelli, Killorn, Palat, and Johnson for scoring depth. Almost undoubtedly the best depth in the league at that point.

Definitely more expensive, but I'd like to see us go for it. He's the one guy who I think would be a major improvement, and also would help balance out our top-six. He's skilled enough to play with our skilled guys but brings an element not a single one of them have.

I think we're weaker on the right. We have Killorn playing 3rd line LW right now when he should be in the top 6. Our 3rd line RW is Maroon? Clearly you can swap guys around like moving Johnson to 3rd line RW or something. Kreider is more physical but they both have similar playoff production Kreider at a 0.48 pace and Toffoli 0.45. Toffoli is a former Cup winner too. I think Stamkos as a C is almost done similar to Johnson where we have them as full time wingers. Cause if we moved him back to C then Cirelli is back at 3C which is what we don't want as he's too good for that. So Pagaeu might be an option as he would be a good 3C and we have solid top 6 wing depth already.

 

[DFC]

I think we're weaker on the right. We have Killorn playing 3rd line LW right now when he should be in the top 6. Our 3rd line RW is Maroon? Clearly you can swap guys around like moving Johnson to 3rd line RW or something. Kreider is more physical but they both have similar playoff production Kreider at a 0.48 pace and Toffoli 0.45. Toffoli is a former Cup winner too. I think Stamkos as a C is almost done similar to Johnson where we have them as full time wingers. Cause if we moved him back to C then Cirelli is back at 3C which is what we don't want as he's too good for that. So Pagaeu might be an option as he would be a good 3C and we have solid top 6 wing depth already.

On the right, Kucherov always has that top spot though. Right now either Johnson or Stamkos also plays the right. On the left, our top guy is Palat, so adding a LW means he could play anywhere in the top-9. Whereas, on the right, it would be a middle-6. I'd like to bring in somebody who could potentially play with Kucherov.

It's also a style thing though. If Kreider were here, he would know he's here for one reason: Go to the net hard. It's something we lack. Our only players who do it are too small to break through in the playoffs.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

The case for Kreider or JGP are both strong. The case for Toffoli is pretty weak. Rather just stick with the boys we have.

Edit: I have a feeling a 1st will be hard to part with for most teams. We have two. This should easily give us a leg up

Edit: I can't see us literally standing pat after what happened last year. Just my opinion.

 

[Shoresy Snipes]

How much can Boston, Toronto and Washington afford on upgrades?
How much of it is upgrading our own team, versus preventing those others from doing it?

 

[These Are The Days]

I would say from a balance standpoint this is the most "complete" roster we've had. Sergachev is blossoming into what we always thought, Shattenkirk is a good all-around complement to the whole back end. All together it is because of their effectiveness in passing and shooting, we're finding ways to get the puck to the net better from distance (without the need for a power play) than we ever have in the Jon Cooper era. Maroon can body in front, Gourde (haven't lost faith in you yet bud) can score dirty with the best of them and his problem is he isn't trying to do that anymore. He's gotta go back to the garbage man job. Finally.... FINALLY we actually have the pieces to play a heavy game. The Detroit series in 2014-2015 took 7 because all you had to do was box us out and we were f***ed. We needed a PMD to complement Hedman and didn't have one. Fast forward 3 years to the Caps series we STILL had the same problem except we needed a contingency while Sergachev developed. Well... Sergachev is proving he's ready for big boy minutes AND we still have Shatty. I actually would not be upset if we didn't make a move but honest to God I feel like this is might be our last really good chance at a Cup for a while.

If it was up to me

1. Give Yzerman a call and see what the Wings want for Mike Green. This is strictly as an offensive specialist with a babysitter.

The cult of Rutta has been fun but this is about winning the Cup. I cannot stress enough how much offensive cycling and shooting from the blue-line has played a role in our "trap" failures. We were bested by the Caps because Orlov and Carlson in particular were like 4th forwards and went globetrotters on us. Wanna remember how we responded? With 3 guys cycling themselves to death because the only defenseman we had who didn't shit his pants with the puck (other than a rookie in Sergachev who had no business playing big minutes) was Hedman.... who shoots wide 8 out of 10 times. So we otherwise just parked the D just off the blue line waiting for a counter-attack while our forwards had to figure out a way to score 3 against 5. It wasn't a wonder to me why we got shut out twice to end the series. Or why in game 7 we put Palat at the blue line feeding Coburn one-timers in the right circle. That's how bad our defense was at being offensively versatile. You might as well have made a joke saying "it's called DEFENSEman not OFFENSEman" I remember looking up the numbers and I think it was Orlov alone who had more shots in 7 games than all of our other defenseman outside of Hedman did combined. Maybe that figure included Carlson too but you get the idea. 5 of our guys couldn't shoot for shit with any of the efficiency of 1 or 2 Capitals.


If we make a move then get another PMD even if it means someone like Green. We have to find better ways to score goals than trying to make the 3 prettiest passes ever. No boys. You crank pucks from the blue and they go in off screens in front. That's how you beat Barry Trotz.

2. Get Kreider or Pageau. They are absolute bastards to play against and I don't trust that Gourde isn't gonna go MIA in the playoffs again. Keep Joseph in Syracuse and put Volkov down there if needed too.


Other than that I'm glad we're having such an extended break. The guys had to make up like 2-4 games on the rest of the world and have had to play a lot of hockey in a short time. I have to imagine a lot of guys were starting to feel it or we were due for an injury simply due to the law of averages of playing so frequently. And any lingering bumps or bruises should feel much better after 10 days or whatever it is

 

[LightningStrikes]

None of the guys available really trigger an itch for me. I mean, sure, it would be nice to have Kreider but at what cost? Our prospect pipeline sucks already and we're gonna need some cheap youngins come next season. And he'd be a pure rental anyway. Pageau is playing well but look what team he's on. He's playing 20+ minutes a night. Put Johnson in his position and he'd probably post better numbers.

 

[HoseEmDown]

The case for Kreider or JGP are both strong. The case for Toffoli is pretty weak. Rather just stick with the boys we have.

Edit: I have a feeling a 1st will be hard to part with for most teams. We have two. This should easily give us a leg up

Edit: I can't see us literally standing pat after what happened last year. Just my opinion.

What's the case for Kreider over Toffoli, hits? Career wise they are very similar players in the regular season and playoffs stat wise. Toffoli has a Cup while Kreider doesn't. This year Kreider has 5 more total points but they have the same amount of ES points. Puck possession and shot attempts wise Toffoli is killing Kreider this year on a much worse team. What we might get out of Kreider is a couple of extra goals and an assist or two with some hits.

People seem to think Kreider is Taylor Hall or something. If you get Kreider you aren't getting some former Hart winner, 90 point player, 30 goal scorer or player with several ppg seasons. He looks like he's this amazing power forward who should score like that but he never does, he's never hit 30 goals, his career high is 53 points, hhe' more hype than substance. Toffoli has hit 30 goals, his career high is 58 points and he should be much cheaper to acquire. We don't need another top 6 forward, we need another complimentary piece to give the bottom 6 another offensive threat. I'm not even huge Toffoli fan I just think Kreider is hugely overrated and hope we don't pay big for him. We beat Boston before without that physical threat and I don't think he would be the difference in beating Washington.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

What's the case for Kreider over Toffoli, hits? Career wise they are very similar players in the regular season and playoffs stat wise. Toffoli has a Cup while Kreider doesn't. This year Kreider has 5 more total points but they have the same amount of ES points. Puck possession and shot attempts wise Toffoli is killing Kreider this year on a much worse team. What we might get out of Kreider is a couple of extra goals and an assist or two with some hits.

People seem to think Kreider is Taylor Hall or something. If you get Kreider you aren't getting some former Hart winner, 90 point player, 30 goal scorer or player with several ppg seasons. He looks like he's this amazing power forward who should score like that but he never does, he's never hit 30 goals, his career high is 53 points, hhe' more hype than substance. Toffoli has hit 30 goals, his career high is 58 points and he should be much cheaper to acquire. We don't need another top 6 forward, we need another complimentary piece to give the bottom 6 another offensive threat. I'm not even huge Toffoli fan I just think Kreider is hugely overrated and hope we don't pay big for him. We beat Boston before without that physical threat and I don't think he would be the difference in beating Washington.

Toffoli is allow and seems like he would be harder to adjust to a new system.
Kreider is fast and simply passes the eye test more then Toffoli does.
Toffoli does bring cup experience if we are into that kind of stuff.


Ive never liked Toffoli as a player. I cant see us being interested based on the way management has built this team

 

[Major4Boarding]

What's the case for Kreider over Toffoli, hits? Career wise they are very similar players in the regular season and playoffs stat wise. Toffoli has a Cup while Kreider doesn't. This year Kreider has 5 more total points but they have the same amount of ES points. Puck possession and shot attempts wise Toffoli is killing Kreider this year on a much worse team. What we might get out of Kreider is a couple of extra goals and an assist or two with some hits.

People seem to think Kreider is Taylor Hall or something. If you get Kreider you aren't getting some former Hart winner, 90 point player, 30 goal scorer or player with several ppg seasons. He looks like he's this amazing power forward who should score like that but he never does, he's never hit 30 goals, his career high is 53 points, hhe' more hype than substance. Toffoli has hit 30 goals, his career high is 58 points and he should be much cheaper to acquire. We don't need another top 6 forward, we need another complimentary piece to give the bottom 6 another offensive threat. I'm not even huge Toffoli fan I just think Kreider is hugely overrated and hope we don't pay big for him. We beat Boston before without that physical threat and I don't think he would be the difference in beating Washington.

Agreed. The pure economics of the upcoming rental price tags should prove that Kreider is out of reach for us. Don't get me wrong, I'd be very happy having CK on this roster near term (3-4 yrs) instead of just a rental but, it would come at the expense of a forced buyout/waiving-NTC of Johnson, Palat, and Gourde to make it work for 2020-2021 +. That's when you factor in all the re-signings that most likely will take place this offseason. You add one good piece but just made 3 huge holes: 2 with having to immediately replace TJ/Drej, and 1 somewhat positional setback (Gourde).

3rd big hole is you just screwed any salary cap gains for the next 5 years with dead salary being added with buyout money. Too much too risk unfortunately and that's not even touching on we need to start restocking the cupboard.

 

[LTIR Trickery]

Brenden Dillon would be a nice addition, and we might have a few different ways to afford it.