2019-20 Coaching Discussion: The Jon Cooper Watch

[Todd1a]

Yzerman would have made the change. JBB and Cooper are best pals. We're stuck.

Yep sadly this is true

 

[Antiramie]

Yep sadly this is true

Same crap as Dirk Koetter refusing to fire his bud Mike Smith.

 

[Felonious Python]

None of us know what's going on inside the team. We're lacking critical information but want to make definite determinations.

One game Coop has lost the room, the next we're fine, two days later the vets have tuned him out. None of these things we know. There are dozens of variables at play here, but some of us are dead set its Coop. What if we fire him and it turns out its not?

We suggest Richards or Halpern as the replacement. Why? What have they done that shows you that they'd be a better choice?

 

[Antiramie]

None of us know what's going on inside the team. We're lacking critical information but want to make definite determinations.

One game Coop has lost the room, the next we're fine, two days later the vets have tuned him out. None of these things we know. There are dozens of variables at play here, but some of us are dead set its Coop. What if we fire him and it turns out its not?

We suggest Richards or Halpern as the replacement. Why? What have they done that shows you that they'd be a better choice?

Because with the talent and experience on the team, we’ll never be in the cellar. We don’t have to know what’s going on behind the scenes to see that Cooper can’t adjust on the fly, hold players accountable, or motivate this team to play consistent game in and out after the embarrassment of the Columbus sweep.

AFAIC, firing him is low risk, high reward.

 

[Master P]

Because with the talent and experience on the team, we’ll never be in the cellar. We don’t have to know what’s going on behind the scenes to see that Cooper can’t adjust on the fly, hold players accountable, or motivate this team to play consistent game in and out after the embarrassment of the Columbus sweep.

AFAIC, firing him is low risk, high reward.

Plus it makes it easier to higher a new coach as soon as they are available.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

None of us know what's going on inside the team. We're lacking critical information but want to make definite determinations.

One game Coop has lost the room, the next we're fine, two days later the vets have tuned him out. None of these things we know. There are dozens of variables at play here, but some of us are dead set its Coop. What if we fire him and it turns out its not?

We suggest Richards or Halpern as the replacement. Why? What have they done that shows you that they'd be a better choice?

see this is what i said we got the holiday is a good time for jbb and others to sit down speak to the guys if possible a few vets... we don't know if they have tuned cooper out BUT BUT BUT 7 years is obviously a very long time.... so maybe it has happened...

post today about the structure of the team being a problem..... no one knows as a fan at least what is going on.... yet this is a good time to evaluate if a change is necessary... I do not know myself....im for change cause right now the results have sucked period thats not debatable.... not to me at least too much talent too many players still from a team which set all the records in last like 25 years.... too many of the core still here whom time and again went deep and been a true threat to win the cup... yep we lost girardi and strally.... i think in that dept we have been ok myself.... so not gonna blame it if it is so and rutta schenn coby are the issue pick up a niskanen playoff winner etc... and shore it up

after the first month the stats say we should do better then what we have done the blame has to fall somewhere its not all vasy or all cooper but who do you take it out on or do you take it out on anyone?

im ok whatever we do but feel we lose this year if we do NOTHING at this point ....

look at nashville and how they are playing they have same issues imho.... drastic change a coach or a player trade is needed I think.... cant stand status quo on the results so far its not cutting it

 

[wxkid23]

I think if he's going to get fired, it'll be if we lose to FLA tomorrow (takes us under 500) over the break, or if we don't start Jan out hot. The schedule really loosens up in January, and for the rest of the year in general. It's time to go on a run, fire the coach, or trade and give up. Regardless, we should know by mid-Jan what's up and where this team (and Coop) are headed.

I'll say this. I don't trust JBB. I don't like having a GM and coach being ex lawyers. Too buddy buddy for me. I miss Y, a lot. Part of the reason I want Coop gone is because I feel our window is rapidly closing with aging vets, salary crunch coming up, fairly weak prospect base, and I don't personally get the feeling JBB is a great, or even good, GM. Two of his big moves have been to sign Cooper to an extension (before!!!!! Huge mistake) the playoffs last year, and to take a massive risk signing our goalie for an 9.5 AAV until 2028. Basically he's risking that Vasy is a top 3 goalie every season, or we lose value, or at worst that contract literally cripples the franchise. I'm worried, the time to win is now, this season.

JBB was handed the keys to a loaded Tesla model S. I hope he doesn't total it.

Also, it's only a matter of time before Steve getting DET up and running..

 

[Master P]

Just replace "you" in the song with "cooper fired"



Merry x-mas

 

[Striket1977]

None of us know what's going on inside the team. We're lacking critical information but want to make definite determinations.

One game Coop has lost the room, the next we're fine, two days later the vets have tuned him out. None of these things we know. There are dozens of variables at play here, but some of us are dead set its Coop. What if we fire him and it turns out its not?

We suggest Richards or Halpern as the replacement. Why? What have they done that shows you that they'd be a better choice?

What have they done that shows they're not? There's no reason for a team that won the presidents trophy last year and dominated every team to look this bad. This isn't a step back it's a whole stride back. There is no chemistry with this team. It's not like you can point to one line and say they are the problem. It's all of them. This is a structural problem and it's from coaching. After Columbus swept us last year they said they needed to make changes. Really? The same defensive structure that Washington used against us in the playoffs 3 years ago when we were up 3-2 was the same trap d that Columbus used to sweep us. How does a coach not make changes? If the trap defense is so freaking great, why wasn't it used during the regular season to beat us. Our speed is our skill and Cooper is taking that away from us

 

[Striket1977]

No.

Yes he does.

 

[Ducati Boy]

One fan's (probably unpopular) take...

We're not playing much worse than last year.

In our 62 wins last season I felt that only in about 20 of them were we clearly better than the opposition.

We ended up winning a lot of games when we were meh. Why? Sometimes Vasy won games for us. He hasn't really stolen any for us so far this year. In fact he's been the weak link in more than a few. Is that a coaching thing?

Or Kucherov and Point would score a clutch goal to tie or win late in close games. We haven't had many clutch goals at all this year - particularly from Kucherov and Point. Is that a coaching thing?

We're losing games that we won last year despite (except for the two factors mentioned above) playing about the same.

Our 'talent' is overrated. We have 3 very good forwards (when they're on their games - and 2 haven't been so far this year) and 4 ok/good forwards. But we don't have a 3rd line. Almost every other contender has an 8th/9th forward superior to ours. No new forwards have stepped in or stepped up. We have one very good defenseman, and 2 good defensemen (McDonagh is overrated IMO, Sergachev has upped his game). Our 4th-5th are meh (Cernak hasn't lived up to expectations so far this year).

Look at the rosters of other good teams. There isn't a huge difference. Once we start realizing that we're not some all-star roster but a pretty average club with (admittedly) a handful of mercurial talents our expectations should follow suit.

Final thought -- Columbus didn't trap us last year. Nor did they own the boards with muscle. They showed excellent puck management skills, discipline in their own D zone, and were very opportunistic and clinical when they got their chances. And Bob beat Vasy.

 

[Felonious Python]

Yes he does.

If he gets canned in the regular season?

 

[Felonious Python]

What have they done that shows they're not? There's no reason for a team that won the presidents trophy last year and dominated every team to look this bad. This isn't a step back it's a whole stride back. There is no chemistry with this team. It's not like you can point to one line and say they are the problem. It's all of them. This is a structural problem and it's from coaching. After Columbus swept us last year they said they needed to make changes. Really? The same defensive structure that Washington used against us in the playoffs 3 years ago when we were up 3-2 was the same trap d that Columbus used to sweep us. How does a coach not make changes? If the trap defense is so freaking great, why wasn't it used during the regular season to beat us. Our speed is our skill and Cooper is taking that away from us

Richards is a good, although imperfect coach. Halpern doesn't have a head coaching record.

What is Todd Richards hockey? What is Jeff Halpern hockey?

We know a bit about Richards hockey, at least from a few years ago.
Thank You, Todd Richards

And, that same stoic demeanor cuts both ways, unfortunately. When the team struggled out of the gate every single year he was at the helm, it was maddening. He preached--and exuded--patience, almost to a fault, which can be frustrating when a team has high expectations and spins its wheels to start a season--especially when we've all seen what they're capable of and watch them continue to play so far from that. As this season quickly unraveled just seven games in, Richards never seemed to have an answer. That same quiet calmness portrayed a complete lack of urgency and a complete lack of solution to the problems we all saw. Some of that can be laid at the feet of the players, but a lot of it rightfully was laid at the feet of Richards.
...
That's not to say Richards' coaching was perfect; far from it. His tendency to shuffle lines could border on the absurd at times. The team spent this entire training camp with the same lineup, "building chemistry" with one another. Within two games, that was all gone. For all of his outward calm, it gave off the impression that Richards was panicking, not trusting his players or his system. His lineup choices themselves (who to ice, who to scratch) sometimes resulted in the scratching of heads. His insistence on playing slower, more physically-minded players at times seemed baffling. We had hoped that, based on the team's finish and the lineup they iced, maybe that was gone.

It's partly on the coaches for not articulating to fans what their philosophies actually are.

Beyond basic rules, fans have been incredibly poorly educated (I'm in that group as well). This is why we believe in the charts.

edit: could we get a weekly show, maybe a web stream, with Coop or one of the other coaches (depending on availability) like many other NHL markets have where they answer questions? That could be a gig for RP when he retires from pbp, if he wants to stay active.

 

[LTIR Trickery]

Because with the talent and experience on the team, we’ll never be in the cellar. We don’t have to know what’s going on behind the scenes to see that Cooper can’t adjust on the fly, hold players accountable, or motivate this team to play consistent game in and out after the embarrassment of the Columbus sweep.

AFAIC, firing him is low risk, high reward.

He can't adjust!
He messes with lines too much!
He can't adjust on the fly!
He benched Kucherov!

I love you guys.

 

[Todd1a]

He can't adjust!
He messes with lines too much!
He can't adjust on the fly!
He benched Kucherov!

I love you guys.

Bring me guy boucher lol I’m desperate!

 

[Master P]

Bring me guy boucher lol I’m desperate!

Lets get that Finnish coach.

 

[Felonious Python]

Because with the talent and experience on the team, we’ll never be in the cellar. We don’t have to know what’s going on behind the scenes to see that Cooper can’t adjust on the fly, hold players accountable, or motivate this team to play consistent game in and out after the embarrassment of the Columbus sweep.

AFAIC, firing him is low risk, high reward.

Changing the head coach in no way is low risk.

It's not inherently a bad risk, but a coach can change anything and everything about the team.

If only Coop could make frowny face.

 

[Master P]

Changing the head coach in no way is low risk.

It's not inherently a bad risk, but a coach can change anything and everything about the team.

If only Coop could make frowny face.

This is our 7th (technically 8th) year with John Cooper as head coach. I mean, at some point there needs to be a change.

 

[Felonious Python]

This is our 7th (technically 8th) year with John Cooper as head coach. I mean, at some point there needs to be a change.

True, but I don't actually know what the metrics real GMs use to determine when to do that.

As Brian Burke said on Friday, he talked to two current GMs and they didn't think the head coach was the problem. Disregard Brian Burke. Two current NHL GMs surveyed don't entirely know what the problem is, but they don't think it's Jon Cooper.

Coop is the longest tenured guy right now. Trotz went 15 years with the Preds, ending in 2014. Ruff went 15 years with Buffalo ending in 2013. Claude Julien, Babcock, and Q went like 9-10 years with Boston, Detroit, and Chicago.

Tide goes in, tide goes out. Can't explain that.

"There's a lot of parity in the NHL now, and teams lumped together. Nobody is that awful. I think GMs are being a little more calculated -- the rewards have to significantly outweigh the risks in making [a coaching] change. It also tells me that, even with all the speculation, in the [dressing] room things might not be as bad as people make it out to be. So unless a coach has literally lost the room, or there is just cause, a lot of people are going, 'What's the point?'"

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/22408073/nhl-why-coaches-fired-yet

 

[CupsOverCash]

I think there is a bit of an issue with the roster construction but I do think coaching has been an issue too. Its been no secret that we struggle against bigger teams who have a solid defensive system and can skate well with our guys but we have done very well with teams we can expose with our speed and skill. One thing I have admired about this team and I think its a big reason why this team has done so well in the past is the offense that can be drawn up in a flash. I think back to the series against the Penguins in 06, we were thoroughly dominated I thought in just about every game except for the first game but what we did so well in all of the other games was score on the rush and was a very opportunistic in our limited amount of chances it felt like since Pitt was in our zone a ton. I think the main strength of this team in the past has been its ability to be opportunistic in possession changes and score quick goals off the rush. We have seen it before where the other team dominated but we were the more opportunistic one and made the right plays at the right time. I think that the problem with that is it depends a fair bit on luck but also depends largely on the offensive skill players that we have here. When those guys get shut out, we literaly have nothing. So I think we can point to coaching in that they need to be better when things arent working because when things arent working its like the team just loses everything great about them. So if I have any problem with Cooper its during those times. I think this is something we have gotten better at over the years but we are still struggling I think with it. I think its just as much as an issue with the mental toughness of our group as it is a coaching issue.

 

[Felonious Python]

I think there is a bit of an issue with the roster construction but I do think coaching has been an issue too. Its been no secret that we struggle against bigger teams who have a solid defensive system and can skate well with our guys but we have done very well with teams we can expose with our speed and skill. One thing I have admired about this team and I think its a big reason why this team has done so well in the past is the offense that can be drawn up in a flash. I think back to the series against the Penguins in 06, we were thoroughly dominated I thought in just about every game except for the first game but what we did so well in all of the other games was score on the rush and was a very opportunistic in our limited amount of chances it felt like since Pitt was in our zone a ton. I think the main strength of this team in the past has been its ability to be opportunistic in possession changes and score quick goals off the rush. We have seen it before where the other team dominated but we were the more opportunistic one and made the right plays at the right time. I think that the problem with that is it depends a fair bit on luck but also depends largely on the offensive skill players that we have here. When those guys get shut out, we literaly have nothing. So I think we can point to coaching in that they need to be better when things arent working because when things arent working its like the team just loses everything great about them. So if I have any problem with Cooper its during those times. I think this is something we have gotten better at over the years but we are still struggling I think with it. I think its just as much as an issue with the mental toughness of our group as it is a coaching issue.

The Lightning got a puppy this year, now it just needs to be trained.

#backcheckforbolt

 

[T REX]

One fan's (probably unpopular) take...

We're not playing much worse than last year.

In our 62 wins last season I felt that only in about 20 of them were we clearly better than the opposition.

We ended up winning a lot of games when we were meh. Why? Sometimes Vasy won games for us. He hasn't really stolen any for us so far this year. In fact he's been the weak link in more than a few. Is that a coaching thing?

Or Kucherov and Point would score a clutch goal to tie or win late in close games. We haven't had many clutch goals at all this year - particularly from Kucherov and Point. Is that a coaching thing?

We're losing games that we won last year despite (except for the two factors mentioned above) playing about the same.

Our 'talent' is overrated. We have 3 very good forwards (when they're on their games - and 2 haven't been so far this year) and 4 ok/good forwards. But we don't have a 3rd line. Almost every other contender has an 8th/9th forward superior to ours. No new forwards have stepped in or stepped up. We have one very good defenseman, and 2 good defensemen (McDonagh is overrated IMO, Sergachev has upped his game). Our 4th-5th are meh (Cernak hasn't lived up to expectations so far this year).

Look at the rosters of other good teams. There isn't a huge difference. Once we start realizing that we're not some all-star roster but a pretty average club with (admittedly) a handful of mercurial talents our expectations should follow suit.

Final thought -- Columbus didn't trap us last year. Nor did they own the boards with muscle. They showed excellent puck management skills, discipline in their own D zone, and were very opportunistic and clinical when they got their chances. And Bob beat Vasy.

Slight disagree...while maybe not a true "trap" they clogged the neutral zone with the clutching and grabbing and eliminated our speed advantage. COOPER HUGE FAIL NOT ADJUSTING. Sorry but Torts took Cooper behind the woodshed and spanked him. It's time for a change.

 

[Felonious Python]

Slight disagree...while maybe not a true "trap" they clogged the neutral zone with the clutching and grabbing and eliminated our speed advantage. COOPER HUGE FAIL NOT ADJUSTING. Sorry but Torts took Cooper behind the woodshed and spanked him. It's time for a change.

What's the adjustment to that?

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

He can't adjust!
He messes with lines too much!
He can't adjust on the fly!
He benched Kucherov!

I love you guys.

we love you too.... is some things will say vs wash the lines were off or awful he kept mixing up guys NOW one thing defensively as ive said that might have been the best 30 minutes of hockey this season lol....

rest as we know wash back to back absolutely was in dominating form.....

this is why i question right here ARE we hearing cooper the VETS not cirelli pointers etc... the other guys? they were the lines with stammer etc.. not looking great but honestly they were heavily playing defense .....


i dont know i just watch and evaluate..... we should have same system same lines mix match etc.. shouldnt matter etc.. yet the team struggles with this at times or often....

p.s. this is the messes with lines too much i thought was other way around....


AS FAR as to others on here ::::::: if there is a leadership problem WTF shut up burke

jeez

basically to win we need 1 goal from top line every game::::: we need 2-3 more goals so need more consistency at least in third and 4th to step up more often

i think they can then we can roll.... basically vasy gonna be vasy is struggling this year but he went on a bit of a roll and will keep doing that imho till he gets up to stats we all like.... you are gonna have this with any goalie at times is nature of the game

 

[T REX]

What's the adjustment to that?

Funny. I dont get paid millions to figure out the answer. I guess I have the same answer as Cooper...I dont know.