Post-Game Talk: 2018 Tank Postmortem: Vancouver finishes 6th-last

[rune74]

I used to believe that Jake Virtanen busting would be the worst possible outcome for Jim. That pick so crucial for us and our future and we couldn't afford to screw it up.

Now I believe that it doesn't ****ing matter. Nobody has any kind of memory and the new prospects are always shinier than the old ones. People have already forgotten about Virtanen.

Next is Juolevi. Of he turns out it will be a feather in Benning's cap. If he busts people will just forget he exists and start hyping whoever we draft in 2018.

Yeah I see that too, however, that doesn't alleviate the fact a team needs to get some star players. You could potentially fall last for years and never get that star you need with a 1st overall.

System is totally broken as it is now. I'm not sure how to fix it either, you let people tank and some teams will take advantage of it.

 

[rune74]

except east side is pretty easy so not sure how well that would work

It can be, but it's a lot more detailed then say NHL18....just an interesting idea that I think would be neat to see ran...You couldn't really go back to old drafts and say well I had 5th pick and I would pick this guy because you would be biased with knowing how the players panned out. I guess you could grab who was ranked at 5th on those years to see what team you came out with.

 

[infinitemile]

But there is no meaningful way to distinguish between the teams who are deliberate and the teams who are incompetent. Toronto deliberately tanked as overtly as any team I have ever seen. Here you go, have Matthews. We stink while trying to compete, knocked back three spots.

I would prefer a system that rewarded neither deliberate tanking nor incompetence. If Benning ends up getting a longer leash than he deserves because of Pettersson then that is even worse for us... I mean **** all of our lives if he gets to draft Dahlin. He doesn't deserve Dahlin.

except that we've already seen how some teams, like Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh, can be on top and stay on top for a long time, while teams like Edmonton, Carolina, and Arizona can stay on bottom for a long long time.

The system we have now doesn't reward incompetence, as seen with Edmonton, perhaps the most incompetent NHL team ever. They were so incompetent for so long and are still shit. Just getting high picks doesn't do enough. And it also doesn't reward tanking with the current system. This is evidenced by Buffalo's tanking for multiple years, and they never get a first overall pick and they're still trash.

The fact of the matter is, acquiring top draft picks is by itself not good enough to resuscitate a bad team. That's why I think we should go back to how the system was before 2015, it makes it so genuinely bad teams get the help they need and incompetent teams still do not improve until they clean out their management.

 

[CanaFan]

But there is no meaningful way to distinguish between the teams who are deliberate and the teams who are incompetent. Toronto deliberately tanked as overtly as any team I have ever seen. Here you go, have Matthews. We stink while trying to compete, knocked back three spots.

I would prefer a system that rewarded neither deliberate tanking nor incompetence. If Benning ends up getting a longer leash than he deserves because of Pettersson then that is even worse for us... I mean **** all of our lives if he gets to draft Dahlin. He doesn't deserve Dahlin.

Except the NHL isn’t in the business of enforcing ethical systems, it is in the business of selling a product that requires fans in all markets to be engaged in *something*. Winning and competing realistically playoffs engages the fans in 20-25 markets. The draft is for those that don’t apply to the above and need to believe there is a better future ahead and some reason to plunk their cash down for next season’s tickets.

It isn’t in the NHL’s interests to set up a system that concerns itself with the decisions of its member clubs (such as to fire or retain an incompetent buffoon such as our own dear Jim Benning). It’s in the league’s interests to ensure Vancouver fans stay engaged while in this downturn and “giving” us an Elias Pettersson helps to accomplish that.

 

[Melvin]

It is still a reward. That it isn't a get out of jail free card is not enough. Seeing Edmonton get mcdavid a as sickening and watching them waste him is even worse.

If you get a 10k bonus it is still a reward even if it's not enough to get you out of debt.

 

[Melvin]

That post was for vcl. I'll respond to the rest later. At work now.

 

[BassMason]

Mojo? What mojo? They were fighting tooth and nail to stay above .500

Ya that’s this team with mojo. Pretty sad but it is what it is. All I’m saying is I think the team will climb out of the very basement.

 

[infinitemile]

Ya that’s this team with mojo. Pretty sad but it is what it is. All I’m saying is I think the team will climb out of the very basement.

if anything we're falling even deeper into the basement.

 

[Hollywood Burrows]

Except the NHL isn’t in the business of enforcing ethical systems, it is in the business of selling a product that requires fans in all markets to be engaged in *something*. Winning and competing realistically playoffs engages the fans in 20-25 markets. The draft is for those that don’t apply to the above and need to believe there is a better future ahead and some reason to plunk their cash down for next season’s tickets.

It isn’t in the NHL’s interests to set up a system that concerns itself with the decisions of its member clubs (such as to fire or retain an incompetent buffoon such as our own dear Jim Benning). It’s in the league’s interests to ensure Vancouver fans stay engaged while in this downturn and “giving” us an Elias Pettersson helps to accomplish that.

This is true. Fake ass loser points that compress the standings and make teams appear more competitive than they are is part & parcel.

The euro footy system of no draft/salary cap + academies + relegation has it's own problems, but it forces clubs on the margins to innovate on and off the pitch. If it were possible to adopt a similar system in the NHL (it's not) I'd prefer it, especially because you'd expect the Canucks to be a "have" club under that system.

Tweaking the draft to make it more fair, maybe something like awarding the higher picks to the teams that finish closer to the playoffs (this one's been proposed for the NHL recently, I think I read Travis Yost advocating for it?) would still fulfill the entertainment component while not rewarding incompetence to the same degree. Sadly, NHL owners are mostly American Businessmen, not a cohort known for its innovative spirit or progressivism.

 

[passive voice]

You shouldn’t. It’s run with a high level of transparency and oversight.

I think any draft lottery conspiracy people have to explain 1) McDavid to Edmonton and 2) Matthews to not-Arizona.

my problem with the people who say that the lottery system sucks and non-playoff teams should keep winning, is that it doesn't take into account legitimately bad teams like ours, who weren't trying to tank. Jim hasn't been trying to tank for any of his 4 years, we've just been really really bad and failed every year. Do we not deserve to be compensated for being terrible?

Abolish the draft.

 

[CanaFan]

It is still a reward. That it isn't a get out of jail free card is not enough. Seeing Edmonton get mcdavid a as sickening and watching them waste him is even worse.

If you get a 10k bonus it is still a reward even if it's not enough to get you out of debt.

And you’re speaking as a fan, one that has a natural emnity for Edmonton. Which is fine but it is hardly at the foremost concern of what the league needs to consider when drawing up their draft system.

It can sicken you immensely but that doesn’t mean it’s the wrong system for the league.

 

[rune74]

I think an easy fix would be that if you draft first overall one year you cannot draft in the top 3 the following year. This makes teams want to compete and helps the teams that are truly bad in need of talent.

 

[CanaFan]

I think any draft lottery conspiracy people have to explain 1) McDavid to Edmonton and 2) Matthews to not-Arizona.

Exactly. Beyond lack of opportunity (the lottery is run by an independent accounting firm and viewed live by representatives of all 31 teams) and motivation (what does Bettman gain personally by risking his career by being duplicitous to his own bosses aka team owners), the actual results run counter to what one would “expect” to see from a rigged lottery.

2015, the best, most hyped prospect since Sidney Crosby a decade earlier is up for grabs and among the teams with the top odds to win the pick are:

Toronto (3) - the biggest, most lucrative market in Canada and possibly in the entire league

Arizona (2) - the team the league had been pouring money into to keep it in place and actually went to the unprecedented steps of purchasing and owning to prevent it from failing.

Edmonton (4) - One of the smallest, least financially important markets in the entire league that has won the lottery multiple times already and no one would shed a tear for if they lost.


If Bettman is “choosing” the winner, which one of those 3 do you think DOESN’T win the 2015 lottery?

 

[CanaFan]

I think an easy fix would be that if you draft first overall one year you cannot draft in the top 3 the following year. This makes teams want to compete and helps the teams that are truly bad in need of talent.

This is actually an approach I can agree with. It gives teams that need it a chance to remedy their system but doesn’t allow repeated abuses. It also doesn’t stop them from getting further help in the form of the 2nd pick or lower.

 

[BlueGreen]

So does @DownGoesMcDavid still believe negotiations are ongoing?

That's a pretty damming tweet coming from Smithers.

That said, **** is aquilini a myopic moron.

Yes

 

[me2]

I think an easy fix would be that if you draft first overall one year you cannot draft in the top 3 the following year. This makes teams want to compete and helps the teams that are truly bad in need of talent.

The only fix is getting rid of the draft. Every player is a ufa when off contract. There is no incentive at all if there is no draft.

 

[Wo Yorfat]

3-0 Habs late.

I cursed em. 3-1. =D

 

[CanaFan]

The only fix is getting rid of the draft. Every player is a ufa when off contract. There is no incentive at all if there is no draft.

There’s still an incentive to get younger and lower costs, which could have the same impact as the “lure” of draft picks. We also have no idea how these 17 year old “UFAs” will respond to having their choice of NHL teams to negotiate with. Will having a strong, established NHL roster be an impediment to signing these amateur UFAs? Will these kids give priority to teams that can promise them earlier and easier opportunities to play in the NHL a la Justin Schultz with Edmonton? If so you still have an incentive for teams to deconstruct and tank. And how does that impact the ability of teams to control the development of young players, such as keeping them in the CHL or AHL until they are actually NHL ready vs giving them roster spots prematurely as an incentive to sign with the team?

Plenty of potential issues with abolishing the draft system, some far more damaging than the “problem” of tanking.

 

[me2]

There’s still an incentive to get younger and lower costs, which could have the same impact as the “lure” of draft picks. We also have no idea how these 17 year old “UFAs” will respond to having their choice of NHL teams to negotiate with. Will having a strong, established NHL roster be an impediment to signing these amateur UFAs? Will these kids give priority to teams that can promise them earlier and easier opportunities to play in the NHL a la Justin Schultz with Edmonton? If so you still have an incentive for teams to deconstruct and tank. And how does that impact the ability of teams to control the development of young players, such as keeping them in the CHL or AHL until they are actually NHL ready vs giving them roster spots prematurely as an incentive to sign with the team?

Plenty of potential issues with abolishing the draft system, some far more damaging than the “problem” of tanking.

Some will choose home teams and discounts, others will chase the cash, and the rest will chase opportunity. The cap will do a good job of sorting this out. Some teams, low financial teams will be the hardest hit IMHO but it won't kill them too much more than it is now. If they are smart they will market themselves as the team of opportunity "come here and play, make your name, get paid (here or somewhere else)". The big market teams will be chasing down the big money contracts, just like they did in the 90s.

It's a new paradigm, but it will sort itself out pretty quickly.

 

[CanaFan]

Some will choose home teams and discounts, others will chase the cash, and the rest will chase opportunity. The cap will do a good job of sorting this out. Some teams, low financial teams will be the hardest hit IMHO but it won't kill them too much more than it is now. If they are smart they will market themselves as the team of opportunity "come here and play, make your name, get paid (here or somewhere else)". The big market teams will be chasing down the big money contracts, just like they did in the 90s.

It's a new paradigm, but it will sort itself out pretty quickly.

I’m less optimistic it will. “Sorting itself out” doesn’t necessarily mean for the better. First of all you/we have no idea the degree to which “opportunity” will drive decisions. I suspect it will be the most common motivator just as it is with college UFAs today, since opportunity leads to a bigger 2nd (non-cap controlled) contract. It is also one of the biggest factors that will drive even making the NHL vs not at all. So if young talent (which is always more desirable than older or more expensive talent) is still largely driven by opportunity then much of the same tank-ish behaviour will likely remain. Build with kids, shed or eschew older, costlier players. Sure there may not be a direct “points-are-bad” incentive but the results could remain very similar.

And ultimately why does it matter “why” teams are bad? In a competitive league there will, by definition, always be some teams that just “are” bad. Like the 2016-17 Avalanche. 47 points and no attempt at tanking, not especially bad management. In their case the draft was probably the only salve on an otherwise miserable year. Why shouldn’t those fans be consoled with a higher pick than say Pittsburgh or Nashville fans?

 

[BlueGreen]

F*** off Eriksson. Wtf is wrong with the kings? Any team that can’t beat this trash team should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[VeteranNetPresence]

i hate Eriksson, what a f***ing waste

 

[BlueGreen]

Worst possible scenario so far

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Biggest troll game of the year

 

[SillyRabbit]

Lol this game is the epitome of this version of the Canucks.

Useless player scores two goals and assists on the third
Ottawa, Edmonton and Florida all losing
Random PP given to the Canucks for a waive out and they score on it

What’s next, a Kings own goal?