2018 Management Discussion, Pt. III - Now with Less Trevor and More Mutiny

[CanaFan]

I’m not the one making these comparisons. The Gretzky comparison was made by a Swedish hockey professional during a radio interview.

What do you think is meant by all those comparisons? Do you actually think they mean that each player is expected to be literally as good as each of those players? That Boeser will lead the NHL in goals for the next decade? That Pettersson will outscore the rest of the league including McDavid by 40-50 points? That Hughes will score 90+ points and win multiple Norris’ while Juolevi also wins multiple Norris’?

Are you *actually* that [MOD]?

 

[valkynax]

What do you think is meant by all those comparisons? Do you actually think they mean that each player is expected to be literally as good as each of those players? That Boeser will lead the NHL in goals for the next decade? That Pettersson will outscore the rest of the league including McDavid by 40-50 points? That Hughes will score 90+ points and win multiple Norris’ while Juolevi also wins multiple Norris’?

Are you *actually* that stupid childishly naive?

No no, he meant Pettersson will outscore McD by 100 points.

Gretzky was a 200 points player, remember?

True story.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Wow. Of all the complete and total horse **** I've seen on this board, this is almost the worst I've seen from you today.

Boeser has been compared to Bossy...by me.
Pettersson has been compared to Gretzky...by me.
Hughes has been compared to Bobby Orr...by me.

Yeah, compelling.

*edit* You know what? I've seen enough mindless propaganda. I'm sure there's a bright future for you in a Russian troll farm in a couple of years. Back on ignore you go.

None of those comparisons come from me actually they came from professionals in the hockey business mostly and some from other users/fans who are not me. Actually I think Bergeron himself compared Horvat to himself. Hughes to Orr has been a common comparison lately by radio pundits in Vancouver.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

What do you think is meant by all those comparisons? Do you actually think they mean that each player is expected to be literally as good as each of those players? That Boeser will lead the NHL in goals for the next decade? That Pettersson will outscore the rest of the league including McDavid by 40-50 points? That Hughes will score 90+ points and win multiple Norris’ while Juolevi also wins multiple Norris’?

Are you *actually* that stupid childishly naive?

No I think if McDavid and Gretzky played in the same era they would be close in points. Same with the other guys I mentioned. I’m not the only one to suggest that Hughes will win the Norris actually NHLer Dylan Larkin did it before me but what does he know he just makes 6 mill a year playing hockey.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

I should introduce you guys to the steel man argument, it’s where you don’t try to interpret another person’s words with the least amount of charity possible but actually try to extend as much charity as possible. It’s a great intellectual exercise and it will make you better at reasoning.

 

[RandV]

Interesting, thank you.

I don't necessarily want to punish a team for letting a player go at the right time. If you had a good player on your team but he's 32 years old and looking for a big contract, it's probably the right move to let him go. That's not really what I mean by churn.

I am more talking about the situation we have here where Benning by his own admission has been trying to find a defenseman since he got here and has churned through an epic pile of garbage during his search.

If you want a great case study look at how Daryl Sutter ran the Flames following their 2004 Cinderella Cup run. There was the lockout year in-between of course, but once hockey resumed he turned over half the roster for the 2006-07 season including dumping a lot of the heart and soul players. Then every offseason after that there was always a significant roster move or two and shift in direction.

 

[CanaFan]

No I think if McDavid and Gretzky played in the same era they would be close in points. Same with the other guys I mentioned. I’m not the only one to suggest that Hughes will win the Norris actually NHLer Dylan Larkin did it before me but what does he know he just makes 6 mill a year playing hockey.

I think they are just blowing smoke man and taking up a kid who goes to his alma matter. When do you think Larkin ever watched Bobby Orr play, hmmm? The opening montage of Hockey Night In Canada?

Use some sense man, they are talking *stylistically* i.e. Hughes is great with the puck and a fabulous skater and most well known comp for that is Bobby Orr. It doesn’t mean he actually thinks Hughes will be the next actual Bobby Orr.

Please tell me you actually understand that.

 

[CanaFan]

I should introduce you guys to the steel man argument, it’s where you don’t try to interpret another person’s words with the least amount of charity possible but actually try to extend as much charity as possible. It’s a great intellectual exercise and it will make you better at reasoning.

Not if that’s what you use. All it appears to lead to is massive blind spots and overestimation of things.

 

[F A N]

Interesting, thank you.

I don't necessarily want to punish a team for letting a player go at the right time. If you had a good player on your team but he's 32 years old and looking for a big contract, it's probably the right move to let him go. That's not really what I mean by churn.

I am more talking about the situation we have here where Benning by his own admission has been trying to find a defenseman since he got here and has churned through an epic pile of garbage during his search.

Searching for a bonafide #1 C and #1 Dman / PP QB has been a historical task for the Canucks. Jeff Brown remains one of the best PP QB the Canucks have ever had.

 

[Peter10]

it’s actually amazing what a job Benning has done with the drafting.

Boeser has been compared to Mike Bossy

Elias Peterson has been compared to Wayne Gretzky

Quinn Hughes has been compared to Bobby Orr

Olli Juolevi has been compared to Nicklas Lidstrom

Bo Horvat has been compared to Patrice Bergeron

Can you imagine a power play of:

Gretzky - Bergeron - Bossy
Orr - Lidstrom

Having the modern day equivalent will be incredible to watch in about 2-3 years.

You forgot:

Granlund = Bergeron
Sutter = Toews
Gudbranson = Chara

 

[Askel]

Like JVR,or Tyler Bozak..?

Bozak was signed as College free agent. JVR was not signed he was traded for for Luke Schenn. Both were under 27 when they were acquired by the leafs.

 

[brokenhole]

None of those comparisons come from me actually they came from professionals in the hockey business mostly and some from other users/fans who are not me. Actually I think Bergeron himself compared Horvat to himself. Hughes to Orr has been a common comparison lately by radio pundits in Vancouver.

Me thinks some of those so called pro's forgot what players like Orr or 99 and Lidstrom were like. Whoever made those comparisons should take themselves out behind the barn and shoot themselves with a ball of their own .... and people that bought into it should as well.

 

[KingOfTheES]

This thread is giving me cancer.

Think of how delusional you need to be to think a 20 point bottom six board-shaker like JV is more valuable than a 60 point top 6 winger.

Think of how delusional you need to be to think a defensemen that hasn't even seen one NHL game is more valuable than a 50 point top 6 agitator.

That isn't even bringing up comparing, unironically, Nuck prospects to the likes of Bossy, Gretzky, and Orr.

 

[Pavel96]

it’s actually amazing what a job Benning has done with the drafting.

Boeser has been compared to Mike Bossy

Elias Peterson has been compared to Wayne Gretzky

Quinn Hughes has been compared to Bobby Orr

Olli Juolevi has been compared to Nicklas Lidstrom

Bo Horvat has been compared to Patrice Bergeron

Can you imagine a power play of:

Gretzky - Bergeron - Bossy
Orr - Lidstrom

Having the modern day equivalent will be incredible to watch in about 2-3 years.

Benning also said Sutter reminded him of Patrice Bergeron. This is satire, right?

 

[Jyrki21]

To a degree but the draft isn’t the only way you build a team. Benning has already spent 4 years making trades and signing UFAs in an attempt to stay competitive and make playoffs. It’s crazy to say that’s not Benning’s team. If it’s not his, whose is it? Who do you want to say acquired Gudbranson? Eriksson? Sutter? Sbisa? etc etc.

It's like buying a used car, smashing it into a telephone pole, and concluding it's the previous owner's fault, since it used to be his car.

 

[TruGr1t]

Linden and Benning were certainly convinced they'd acquired perennial all stars on numerous occasions. If only the reality had matched the delusion ... they might have actually gotten out of the basement.

Also: "I'm not comparing Sutter to Bergeron ... but ... I am! (And Toews)." Idiot.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

They need four years to develop? We need four-year, overpaid stop-gaps? Really? Did Benning come in here with a 8-9 year plan or something?

No.

He wanted to be competitive. The vast majority of his moves are geared toward that purpose. It's obviously failed spectacularly.

The "wait on our prospects" argument is a cop out too. Our top prospects were drafted very high. We only had those high picks because the team ended up performing extremely badly, despite Benning's efforts to make the team competitive. And even through that, two of the highest picks the franchise has had since the Sedins, were clearly mis-picks (Virtanen, Juolevi).

What is Benning supposed to hang his hat on? What has he actually been good at?

Top 10 in available capspace...3rd best prospect pool in the league..Turned over 90% of roster in 4 years despite inheriting 7 NTC's and never winning the lottery.

 

[CanaFan]

Top 10 in available capspace...3rd best prospect pool in the league..Turned over 90% of roster in 4 years despite inheriting 7 NTC's and never winning the lottery.

Well winning the lottery rarely helps your prospect pool because players picked 1OA play in the NHL right away. What helps a prospect pool is having a #5 OA pick spend 2+ years unable to crack the NHL while virtually every other top 10 pick from the same draft is no longer considered a prospect.

And congrats on that cap space. It’d actually be impressive if we had any good players signed as part of that cap total.

 

[timw33]

Top 10 in available capspace...3rd best prospect pool in the league..Turned over 90% of roster in 4 years despite inheriting 7 NTC's and never winning the lottery.

Congrats, we've been the worst team in the league over 3 seasons and this is the first season in Benning's tenure that we're not within about $1MM of the cap (we went over last year and had $0 in space in 15-16).

Big accomplishments.

 

[Melvin]

Congrats, we've been the worst team in the league over 3 seasons and this is the first season in Benning's tenure that we're not within about $1MM of the cap (we went over last year and had $0 in space in 15-16).

Big accomplishments.

Nothing like success conditions that are defined after the fact.

If you told me in 2014 that by 2019 we would have a low cap hit and most of the roster turned over I would have thought no way! Only a genius could do that!!

 

[y2kcanucks]

No, that’s wrong. Most teams wouldn’t have hit on as many of their picks outside of the top 10 as Benning. Let’s take it one claim at a time.

But would those teams have missed on two top 6 picks?

And actually there are plenty of teams that would have hit on other picks. Furthermore, teams that would actually be rebuilding in the Canucks situation would be stockpiling picks and would have even more prospects. So you're wrong, as usual.

 

[DS7]

Top 10 in available capspace...3rd best prospect pool in the league..Turned over 90% of roster in 4 years despite inheriting 7 NTC's and never winning the lottery.

If fewer prospects graduate from our pool ( Boeser/Virtanen) and other teams are graduating more prospects in the last 4 years (Boston for instance, has seen Pastranak/Debrusk/Macavoy/Donato/Bjork make the team), thus weakening their pool, is a strong prospect pool something to brag about?

A prospect pool at the end of the day needs to translate to actual NHL players. I'm confident we'll see a lot more due to 4 years drafting, but it's been really delayed by trading away so many picks for grinders and projects. 2016 IMO was a lost year, but 2017 and 18 have got me really excited!

 

[mathonwy]

Top 10 in available capspace...3rd best prospect pool in the league..Turned over 90% of roster in 4 years despite inheriting 7 NTC's and never winning the lottery.

Cap space because the two best player(s) in Canuck history had had enough of this clustereff.

A hockey player will play hockey until they physically can't or nobody will pay them.

A person will not say no to millions and millions of dollars doing something they love doing.

 

[mathonwy]

Nothing like success conditions that are defined after the fact.

If you told me in 2014 that by 2019 we would have a low cap hit and most of the roster turned over I would have thought no way! Only a genius could do that!!

A stable genius at that.

 

[Grantham]

And over 6 million/year of that cap space has been thrown in the trash bin for the next 4 years. If you include Erickson that’s 12 million per year in garbage. Don’t worry, these morans will figure out how to waste the rest.