2018 Management Discussion, Pt. III - Now with Less Trevor and More Mutiny

[valkynax]

Got to disagree with you. I think we missed on Pastrnak, but that’s it. Jake is developing into a beast. OJ is developing into a fine top four D man. Now we have Pettersson and Hughes, who both are clearly super elite, and hyper competitive. Then there are Lind, Gaudette, and more young guys coming along. It’s going to be wave after wave of really good young players helping us climb back to the top.

What has JV and OJ done in NHL that could be comparable to Nylander or Tkachuk.

What has Hughes and Pettersson done on NHL ice?

Don't tell me how promising they are, I don't care, nobody does. Until they have solid prove on NHL ice, they are question marks at BEST. That's like trying to sell me a car without letting me test drive it and just brag on and on and on about how awesome the car is.

JV is looking like a 4th liner, while Nylander is one of the core pieces of the Leafs; OJ couldn't make NHL since he was drafted, while Tkachuk made it almost right away and is becoming a top grade pest.

And those weren't even f***ing hindsight, they were the players almost everyone on this board wanted at the time

 

[Seattle Totems]

Yeah as usual Ben Shapiro is wrong. It should be obvious but of course the level of knowledge and information and education you have on a topic will increase your level of understanding and thus your ability to “detect what’s bull****” as you put it. If someone criticizes Jim unfairly I will hold those people accountable to the facts of the matter and if they can’t handle that then perhaps they are the snowflakes. His drafting is very strong, as is his talent evaluation, trading, contracts, etc. the only thing I would say isn’t strong is asset management and cap management but even those aren’t “bad” per se. I would say he’s average at those and improving, and the facts bear that out.

Your post is 100% bullshit. Its spin, garbage, and disingenuous nonsense. This is exactly what Shapiro was talking about. Common sense tells us what is and what is not bullshit. No PhD is going to award a person common sense.

 

[Fatass]

What has JV and OJ done in NHL that could be comparable to Nylander or Tkachuk.

What has Hughes and Pettersson done on NHL ice?

Don't tell me how promising they are, I don't care, nobody does. Until they have solid prove on NHL ice, they are question marks at BEST. That's like trying to sell me a car without letting me test drive it and just brag on and on and on about how awesome the car is.

JV is looking like a 4th liner, while Nylander is one of the core pieces of the Leafs; OJ couldn't make NHL since he was drafted, while Tkachuk made it almost right away and is becoming a top grade pest.

And those weren't even ****ing hindsight, they were the players almost everyone on this board wanted at the time

Not a fan at all of Wee Willie. I like Tkatchuk though. I see Jake as a more important piece on a Cup winning team than WN. I see OJ as a top four D man, which is what we need. Pettersson and Hughes are going to be superstars. Oh, I forgot B.B. he’s developing into a Mike Bossey! I can’t ever remember a group of young players this exciting in Vancouver, can you?

 

[valkynax]

Not a fan at all of Wee Willie. I like Tkatchuk though. I see Jake as a more important piece on a Cup winning team than WN. I see OJ as a top four D man, which is what we need. Pettersson and Hughes are going to be superstars. Oh, I forgot B.B. he’s developing into a Mike Bossey! I can’t ever remember a group of young players this exciting in Vancouver, can you?

Again you're making these wild projections baselessly. What has Pettersson and Hughes and OJ done on NHL ice to prove they are super stars?

How is JV more important than WN when the latter already put up 60 pts seasons twice? HOW????

See this is exactly how Benning thinks - he takes THE best possible scenario without any evidence to back them up, then double down on them with huge contracts. That's how we end up with useless garbage like Louis "own goal" Eriksson and Brandon "balls o steel" Sutter.

 

[The Drop]

I hear what you’re saying, but we need to wait on JB’s drafted players, don’t we? I remember the Twins, Edler, Kessler, and the rest of the guys from that grpup’s glory days all took several years to develop into good players. I think that’s why JB brought in Beagle, Roussel, Schaller, and a couple guys last season. The young guys need time to develop into top players, don’t they?

Why does “bringing in veterans” always result in 4th line trash?

Why not sign 27-28ish top 6 forwards?

 

[valkynax]

Why does “bringing in veterans” always result in 4th line trash?

Why not sign 27-28ish top 6 forwards?

Because top 6 forwards are clearly incapable of MENTORSHIP, duh.

 

[CanaFan]

It sounds like a paradox. Build through trades and signing UFAs a competitive team, but not a Cup winner, and watch those older guys decline, and we are stuck with them, because we are drafting bottom 10 year after year. Or, lose several years in a row to get the highest picks possible, and let those players develop over time. However, the GM that builds this very slow way, often gets replaced, and watches his successors reap the rewards.
I really don’t care how it’s done, I just want us to be a Cup competitive team for a 7 to 10 year period.

Personally I don’t have a problem with building slowly through the draft so long as the GM is also making smart, steady moves with the NHL roster as well. Trading away picks and prospects for junk like Gudbranson, Vey, Clendenning, Pedan, Pouliot, Motte, etc then signing 31 year old UFAs to 6 year contracts doesn’t seem aligned with building patiently through the draft.

 

[bossram]

I hear what you’re saying, but we need to wait on JB’s drafted players, don’t we? I remember the Twins, Edler, Kessler, and the rest of the guys from that grpup’s glory days all took several years to develop into good players. I think that’s why JB brought in Beagle, Roussel, Schaller, and a couple guys last season. The young guys need time to develop into top players, don’t they?

They need four years to develop? We need four-year, overpaid stop-gaps? Really? Did Benning come in here with a 8-9 year plan or something?

No.

He wanted to be competitive. The vast majority of his moves are geared toward that purpose. It's obviously failed spectacularly.

The "wait on our prospects" argument is a cop out too. Our top prospects were drafted very high. We only had those high picks because the team ended up performing extremely badly, despite Benning's efforts to make the team competitive. And even through that, two of the highest picks the franchise has had since the Sedins, were clearly mis-picks (Virtanen, Juolevi).

What is Benning supposed to hang his hat on? What has he actually been good at?

 

[Kryten]

Yall MFers are defending Ben Shapiro? Even RMB is smarter than that

 

[valkynax]

Yall MFers are defending Ben Shapiro? Even RMB is smarter than that

lol no no no, we're just borrowing one particular part of what he said and use it as an analogy.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Why does “bringing in veterans” always result in 4th line trash?

Why not sign 27-28ish top 6 forwards?

Like JVR,or Tyler Bozak..?

 

[Melvin]

A few years ago, basketball-reference.com created a metric like this for the NBA — they measured "roster continuity" by looking at the % of minutes that were filled by players from the previous season's roster:

Roster Continuity | Basketball-Reference.com

That approach at least helps account for the idea that turning over core players should count for more than turning over fringe players.

Whether it matters or not, I have no idea. At least in the NBA, roster continuity seems to be lightly correlated with regular season success, although it's not really clear which way the causation runs.

Interesting, thank you.

I don't necessarily want to punish a team for letting a player go at the right time. If you had a good player on your team but he's 32 years old and looking for a big contract, it's probably the right move to let him go. That's not really what I mean by churn.

I am more talking about the situation we have here where Benning by his own admission has been trying to find a defenseman since he got here and has churned through an epic pile of garbage during his search.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Yeah as usual Ben Shapiro is wrong. It should be obvious but of course the level of knowledge and information and education you have on a topic will increase your level of understanding and thus your ability to “detect what’s bull****” as you put it. If someone criticizes Jim unfairly I will hold those people accountable to the facts of the matter and if they can’t handle that then perhaps they are the snowflakes. His drafting is very strong, as is his talent evaluation, trading, contracts, etc. the only thing I would say isn’t strong is asset management and cap management but even those aren’t “bad” per se. I would say he’s average at those and improving, and the facts bear that out.

The Canucks prospect pool is where you would expect it to be given the picks they have had.

If Benning's drafting is very strong then why did Boston's drafting improve significantly after he left? Their drafting was awful while he was there.

Also, his talent evaluation has been piss poor. Trading has been piss poor. Contracts have been piss poor. He gave out the two worst contracts this past July 1. That doesn't scream "very strong."

But you have proven you make up excuses for him all the time so I don't expect rehashing the facts will change your opinion.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

The Canucks prospect pool is where you would expect it to be given the picks they have had.

If Benning's drafting is very strong then why did Boston's drafting improve significantly after he left? Their drafting was awful while he was there.

Also, his talent evaluation has been piss poor. Trading has been piss poor. Contracts have been piss poor. He gave out the two worst contracts this past July 1. That doesn't scream "very strong."

But you have proven you make up excuses for him all the time so I don't expect rehashing the facts will change your opinion.

No, that’s wrong. Most teams wouldn’t have hit on as many of their picks outside of the top 10 as Benning. Let’s take it one claim at a time.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Your post is 100% bull****. Its spin, garbage, and disingenuous nonsense. This is exactly what Shapiro was talking about. Common sense tells us what is and what is not bull****. No PhD is going to award a person common sense.

Ben Shapiro knows nothing about hockey.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Not true.

Last season, there were only three non-Benning contracts on the roster: Henrik, Daniel, and Edler. All were conveniently some of our better players to boot.

Of course, now the Sedins are gone. Edler is the only pre-Benning contract. This is Benning's team. It has been for a while. It's been garbage for a while.

P.S.: You haven't responded to my previous reply to you in this thread either. I would like to hear a clear and concise argument from your perspective.

I can’t find the post you’re referring to, can you link it? I’m always happy to explain my position.

Henrik and Daniel weren’t good in the last 3 years. When you pay them 14 million dollars you expect them to be at least ppg without needing to be sheltered. They were 50 point players who needed extreme sheltering and excessive pp minutes and they were liabilities at even strength. That’s not Benning’s fault. If the Sedins performed the way they did in the first year Benning arrived in the following 3 then things would’ve been a lot different. I don’t blame them, I wouldn’t have had it any other way, they more than earned that money from previous years of elite performance. Once the Sedins are gone and their replacements are drafted and make the NHL roster, that’s when you can say “this is Benning’s team” and not before that. It would be akin to criticizing your architect for the hotel room you’re staying at while your new house is being built or criticizing your contractors about your bathroom before they’re finished renovating it.

 

[Peen]

Henrik and Daniel weren’t good in the last 3 years. When you pay them 14 million dollars you expect them to be at least ppg without needing to be sheltered. They were 50 point players who needed extreme sheltering and excessive pp minutes and they were liabilities at even strength. That’s not Benning’s fault. If the Sedins performed the way they did in the first year Benning arrived in the following 3 then things would’ve been a lot different. I don’t blame them, I wouldn’t have had it any other way, they more than earned that money from previous years of elite performance.

I don't really disagree with this.

But you're a hypocrite for claiming "omg points and leadership means beagle is better than gaunce and gaunce sucks!"and then coming to this thread and pointing out the sedins aren't worth their contracts using the same argument that we use to debunk your nonsense.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

it’s actually amazing what a job Benning has done with the drafting.

Boeser has been compared to Mike Bossy

Elias Peterson has been compared to Wayne Gretzky

Quinn Hughes has been compared to Bobby Orr

Olli Juolevi has been compared to Nicklas Lidstrom

Bo Horvat has been compared to Patrice Bergeron

Can you imagine a power play of:

Gretzky - Bergeron - Bossy
Orr - Lidstrom

Having the modern day equivalent will be incredible to watch in about 2-3 years.

 

[valkynax]

it’s actually amazing what a job Benning has done with the drafting.

Boeser has been compared to Mike Bossy

Elias Peterson has been compared to Wayne Gretzky

Quinn Hughes has been compared to Bobby Orr

Olli Juolevi has been compared to Nicklas Lidstrom

Bo Horvat has been compared to Patrice Bergeron

Can you imagine a power play of:

Gretzky - Bergeron - Bossy
Orr - Lidstrom

Having the modern day equivalent will be incredible to watch in about 2-3 years.

Holy shit, we got Gretzky Orr Lidstrom and Bergeron???????? Jeeeeeesus...

f*** me, plan the parade boys!

 

[geebaan]

it’s actually amazing what a job Benning has done with the drafting.

Boeser has been compared to Mike Bossy

Elias Peterson has been compared to Wayne Gretzky

Quinn Hughes has been compared to Bobby Orr

Olli Juolevi has been compared to Nicklas Lidstrom

Bo Horvat has been compared to Patrice Bergeron

Can you imagine a power play of:

Gretzky - Bergeron - Bossy
Orr - Lidstrom

Having the modern day equivalent will be incredible to watch in about 2-3 years.

Okay you’ve got to be a troll account.

Boeser to Bossy?

Pettersson to Gretzky?

Come on man, this Benning fanboy delusion is getting out of hand. And speaking of that power play, shouldn’t that be Granlund in Bergerons spot?

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Okay you’ve got to be a troll account.

Boeser to Bossy?

Pettersson to Gretzky?

Come on man, this Benning fanboy delusion is getting out of hand. And speaking of that power play, shouldn’t that be Granlund in Bergerons spot?

I’m not the one making these comparisons. The Gretzky comparison was made by a Swedish hockey professional during a radio interview.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

it’s actually amazing what a job Benning has done with the drafting.

Boeser has been compared to Mike Bossy

Elias Peterson has been compared to Wayne Gretzky

Quinn Hughes has been compared to Bobby Orr

Olli Juolevi has been compared to Nicklas Lidstrom

Bo Horvat has been compared to Patrice Bergeron

Can you imagine a power play of:

Gretzky - Bergeron - Bossy
Orr - Lidstrom

Having the modern day equivalent will be incredible to watch in about 2-3 years.

Wow. Of all the complete and total horse shit I've seen on this board, this is almost the worst I've seen from you today.

Boeser has been compared to Bossy...by me.
Pettersson has been compared to Gretzky...by me.
Hughes has been compared to Bobby Orr...by me.

Yeah, compelling.

*edit* You know what? I've seen enough mindless propaganda. I'm sure there's a bright future for you in a Russian troll farm in a couple of years. Back on ignore you go.

 

[geebaan]

I’m not the one making these comparisons. The Gretzky comparison was made by a Swedish hockey professional during a radio interview.

Dude, we get it, Benning has done nothing wrong and all our prospects are Wayne, but can you try, just TRY to back up an argument with a fact?

 

[valkynax]

Okay you’ve got to be a troll account.

Boeser to Bossy?

Pettersson to Gretzky?

Come on man, this Benning fanboy delusion is getting out of hand. And speaking of that power play, shouldn’t that be Granlund in Bergerons spot?

Hey man, remember what that dipshit Linden said? You can never have too many Bergerons, and we got two of them.

Our roster is now THE best in the league.

Best roster and best GM, praise Cthulhu we're sooooooo gonna get the cup this year.

Heck the league might be so impressed by our Gretzky and Lidstrom and Orr and double Bergeron they might just give us the cup for the next ten years because c'mon, who can stand up to this line up?

 

[Motte and Bailey]

I don't really disagree with this.

But you're a hypocrite for claiming "omg points and leadership means beagle is better than gaunce and gaunce sucks!"and then coming to this thread and pointing out the sedins aren't worth their contracts using the same argument that we use to debunk your nonsense.

I didn’t say Gaunce sucks, I said he has no offensive creativity and could be replaced easily by someone better from waivers. He’s good in his own zone I guess, he’s good at board battles and he’s smart. Problem is he can’t keep up with the speed of the game and his wrist shot which seemed lethal in the minors looks like an easy save at the NHL level. But this isn’t the Gaunce thread.

There’s a difference between the Sedins not scoring and Beagle not producing. It’s not Beagle’s role to carry the offense but it was the Danny and Hank’s. If Beagle is the 4th line shutdown guy and he bleeds goals and is a total defensive liability and doesn’t win face offs or provide energy and the team loses then yeah I will absolutely say he contributed to that outcome. I fail to see any contradiction.