2018-19 Utica Comets, Pt. VI

[Clinton Comets EHL]

Doomed!

Agree. The worst hockey executive in ever.

 

[Bad Goalie]

^ They can always sign them to PTO's like every other team does with their college draftees. Tryamkin... not holding my breath.

Nah. Apparently Vancouver sucks so bad that every player they have drafted who opts to go to college will all finish out their 4 years and go elsewhere as a free agent if you don't sign them immediately and burn off a year of their ELC. The same is also true of guys they take out of the NCAA as free agents who have never even been drafted. The rest of the NHL teams must be so desirable that they only have to do this with the can't miss blue chippers that they want to have play for them immediately because they can make an impact on their team right now. You know, guys like Molino, Teves, and Fogarty for example.

Dylan Larkin was a brilliant example of a 1st round prospect who left NCAA Michigan at the end of his freshman year. He went to the AHL on an ATO and played for Grand Rapids. He played against the Comets in the 2015 AHL playoffs and was very impressive. We all know that Detroit was a top notch NHL contender at that pointy so Dylan was content to go to the AHL. Wrong! The Griffins were in the Playoffs and the Wings sucked. Detroit felt it was a better idea to give the kid the experience of playing for a team that was fighting for something and gave him a shot in the playoffs.

Vancouver could have done the same with Hughes, Gaudette, Fogarty, and Teves. Vancouver was going nowhere and the Comets were 3 points out of a playoff spot with several games remaining. Instead they played meaningless games with the Canucks.

 

[Bad Goalie]

Wasn't he injured at the end of last season? Perhaps he's not a 100% ready to go.

he broke his arm in April. If that is still a problem in September, 6 months ago. It would have to have been one of the worst fractures in history to have kept him out of training camp.

 

[VanJack]

Nah. Apparently Vancouver sucks so bad that every player they have drafted who opts to go to college will all finish out their 4 years and go elsewhere as a free agent if you don't sign them immediately and burn off a year of their ELC. The same is also true of guys they take out of the NCAA as free agents who have never even been drafted. The rest of the NHL teams must be so desirable that they only have to do this with the can't miss blue chippers that they want to have play for them immediately because they can make an impact on their team right now. You know, guys like Molino, Teves, and Fogarty for example.

Dylan Larkin was a brilliant example of a 1st round prospect who left NCAA Michigan at the end of his freshman year. He went to the AHL on an ATO and played for Grand Rapids. He played against the Comets in the 2015 AHL playoffs and was very impressive. We all know that Detroit was a top notch NHL contender at that pointy so Dylan was content to go to the AHL. Wrong! The Griffins were in the Playoffs and the Wings sucked. Detroit felt it was a better idea to give the kid the experience of playing for a team that was fighting for something and gave him a shot in the playoffs.

Vancouver could have done the same with Hughes, Gaudette, Fogarty, and Teves. Vancouver was going nowhere and the Comets were 3 points out of a playoff spot with several games remaining. Instead they played meaningless games with the Canucks.

Not sure where you're going with this, but when it comes to contracts and player agents, there's no such thing as 'meaningless games' at the end of the NHL regular season. In the case of Hughes, Rafferty and Teves, playing games in the NHL burned a year off their entry-level deals.

In Hughes-Gaudette-Boeser cases, this means they get to a second RFA contract one year sooner and a chance to earn the big money.....and with Teves and Rafferty as older prospects, the Canucks only wanted them for two years and will review where they're at when their entry level deals are up.

In fact if you look at the record of players the Canucks have signed out of the NCAA, the reason they land in Vancouver instead of Utica is that either the Canucks or the player wants to get rid of their three-year entry-level contract as fast as possible. For that reason, it's doubtful that any players the the Canucks sign out of the NCAA late in a season will ever end up Utica, until the season following.

 

[Blue and Green]

Since Dylan Larkin's name was raised, it should be pointed out that he is also an example of a guy who took a big leap between his second and third NHL seasons. He would've signed for substantially less money after his second full season (32 points) than what he did after his third season (63 points). Part of the calculus involves the understanding that young players tend to improve and thus an extra season often enhances a player's negotiating position. For a team that has plenty of immediate cap room, it's better to pay a guy a year earlier but less over the longer haul when the saved cap space might come in handy.

 

[Bad Goalie]

Not sure where you're going with this, but when it comes to contracts and player agents, there's no such thing as 'meaningless games' at the end of the NHL regular season. In the case of Hughes, Rafferty and Teves, playing games in the NHL burned a year off their entry-level deals.

In Hughes-Gaudette-Boeser cases, this means they get to a second RFA contract one year sooner and a chance to earn the big money.....and with Teves and Rafferty as older prospects, the Canucks only wanted them for two years and will review where they're at when their entry level deals are up.

In fact if you look at the record of players the Canucks have signed out of the NCAA, the reason they land in Vancouver instead of Utica is that either the Canucks or the player wants to get rid of their three-year entry-level contract as fast as possible. For that reason, it's doubtful that any players the the Canucks sign out of the NCAA late in a season will ever end up Utica, until the season following.

And then?

 

[VanJack]

And then?

And then?

Pretty simple. If you're expecting NCAA players the Canucks sign in the spring to end up in Utica at the end of the season, forget about it.

 

[Bad Goalie]

And then?

Pretty simple. If you're expecting NCAA players the Canucks sign in the spring to end up in Utica at the end of the season, forget about it.

Who ever said Benning WOULD ever do differently?

 

[vanuck]

In fact if you look at the record of players the Canucks have signed out of the NCAA, the reason they land in Vancouver instead of Utica is that either the Canucks or the player wants to get rid of their three-year entry-level contract as fast as possible. For that reason, it's doubtful that any players the the Canucks sign out of the NCAA late in a season will ever end up Utica, until the season following.

... or he's just a notoriously poor negotiator who gets screwed almost every time. As we've seen time and time again from him on other occasions where he's had to make deals.

 

[VanJack]

Who ever said Benning WOULD ever do differently?

You can pile on Jimbo for a lot of things.....but bowing to NCAA players and their agents and letting them burn off a year of their entry level contract with a few NHL games is something he really can't control. Because drafted players out of college always have the option of playing a full four years, at which point they become full UFA's.

We've already seen players like Alex Kerfoot, Kevin Hayes, Will Butcher and Adam Fox just simply walk away from the teams that drafted them. If and until they ever change rules, NCAA players you want to sign will always have the hammer in negotiations.

 

[Bad Goalie]

You can pile on Jimbo for a lot of things.....but bowing to NCAA players and their agents and letting them burn off a year of their entry level contract with a few NHL games is something he really can't control. Because drafted players out of college always have the option of playing a full four years, at which point they become full UFA's.

We've already seen players like Alex Kerfoot, Kevin Hayes, Will Butcher and Adam Fox just simply walk away from the teams that drafted them. If and until they ever change rules, NCAA players you want to sign will always have the hammer in negotiations.

okay

 

[UticaHockey]

You can pile on Jimbo for a lot of things.....but bowing to NCAA players and their agents and letting them burn off a year of their entry level contract with a few NHL games is something he really can't control. Because drafted players out of college always have the option of playing a full four years, at which point they become full UFA's.

We've already seen players like Alex Kerfoot, Kevin Hayes, Will Butcher and Adam Fox just simply walk away from the teams that drafted them. If and until they ever change rules, NCAA players you want to sign will always have the hammer in negotiations.

There is way too much concern about college players staying in school and becoming free agents. Of the players that you listed only Adam Fox put up the kind of numbers where he could have turned pro and played in the NHL after his freshmen or sophomore years but elected to stay in school longer to become a UFA. Alex Kerfoot, Kevin Hayes, Will Butcher (and you can add Jimmy Vesey to the list) didn't have breakout seasons until their junior or senior years so the wait to become free agents wasn't that long. None of these players were in a position to play in the NHL after their first two years of college so the "do I take the NHL salary now or stay in school" wasn't an option.

After Boeser's record breaking freshmen year It was actually surprising he stayed in school for his sophomore year but there was no way he was going to go back to school two more years instead of turning pro. Benning did have leverage but didn't use it.

If Tyler Madden improves on his solid freshmen year and puts up big numbers in year two then the odds of him staying in school four years is very slim. If he doesn't have a big year then there will be less of a chance that Benning will offer him a contract and the odds he stays in school four years increases. But if the kid does play well and wants to be on a NHL roster next season it is up to Benning to convince him that the development plan is to play in the AHL on an ATO through the playoffs learning whet it is like to be a pro so he will be prepared for training camp next season.

 

[tyhee]

You can pile on Jimbo for a lot of things.....but bowing to NCAA players and their agents and letting them burn off a year of their entry level contract with a few NHL games is something he really can't control. Because drafted players out of college always have the option of playing a full four years, at which point they become full UFA's.

We've already seen players like Alex Kerfoot, Kevin Hayes, Will Butcher and Adam Fox just simply walk away from the teams that drafted them. If and until they ever change rules, NCAA players you want to sign will always have the hammer in negotiations.

@UticaHockey made a great reply to this.

To summarize, the guys who are really good as freshmen or sophomores will almost never have any intention of staying in college past their second seasons. To do so with the plan of waiting out the four years to free agency costs the player big money.

Let’s say the GM refuses to burn a year for a really good freshman, say Quinn Hughes this past spring. Hughes has the following options:

-sign and join the NHL for 2019-20, with his entry level deal to expire in 2022 at which time his earning power goes up

OR

-stay in school for three more seasons, then become an unrestricted free agent August 15, 2022 but still subject to entry level contract restrictions so his earning power doesn’t go up until 2024-25.

What staying in school would accomplish is to lose, forever, two years of RFA income and delay the time until he can become an UFA.

Staying in school also risks losing even elc money if injured while in school and risks losing the big money from increased earning power if injured in 2022-3 or 2023-4 after he's spent four years in university.

If Hughes does well on his entry level contract, that could easily be $10 million in earnings lost permanently.

It would have been similar for Boeser coming out of school.

That changes in the 3rd season in university. If you don’t sign a player after his 3rd season, he loses one year of elc money but may not change when the elc will expire. An elc signed at age 21 is for 3 years and an elc signed at age 22 is for 2 years, so especially if there is a chance the player would spend a season in the AHL, he doesn’t have nearly so much to lose by staying in school.

So if you’re signing a top guy after a season or two of college, there’s rarely a need to burn a season. It is in the player’s best interests to sign anyway. If the player has finished his third season of college hockey, he has less to lose by staying in school so in some cases the incentive of burning an elc season may tip the scales in favour of getting the player signed.

 

[krutovsdonut]

i think the burning off signings has been a huge win.

it's an excellent developmental tool. there is no better way for a player to get a taste of the nhl than in their peak condition on a team that can gift them icetime with no expectations. i would say developmentally that seeing what is involved before the summer starts, working with trainers in game conditions, and having the chance to forge relationships with the pro-players before the summer to talk to about how to be a pro is huge.

plus it starts off the team relationship on a generous note and promotes goodwill that encourages other ncaa players to look at us as an option.

it's also worked beneficially in reverse with molino and the rafferty/teves signings by getting rid of elcs.

it has also arguably paid for itself on a bad team by boosting fan interest during garbage time at the end of the season and having something tangible and positive to talk about selling season tickets.

 

[Blue and Green]

Teams can get some advantages from burning the first year of ELC as long as the player only plays in a few games. Depending on the specifics of the player and on the team's situation, there are instances where it should be done and others where it shouldn't.

Marner has said that he received a couple of offer sheets. Aho signed an offer sheet that was matched. Boeser cannot receive an offer sheet, plus there is no Dec 1 deadline to sign him, as he lacks RFA status. He is also five years away from UFA status coming out of his ELC, instead of only four years if his ELC expired at the end of the upcoming season. Plus if he improves this season, as younger players are wont to do, his post-ELC contract would be further boosted. The same will apply to Hughes two years from now.

There is open competition for college UFA's and an end-of-season ELC is often necessary to have a shot at landing the best ones.

And it's not like the Canucks are handing out end-of-season ELC's to everyone. Lockwood was offered only an ATO; he declined it. Lind was ATO'ed coming out of junior.

 

[Bad Goalie]

Cancuks have cut all but one of the AHL contract players. Arseneau played in the game last night and will probably be in the next group to get the axe.

Canucks fans surprised to see Ferraro is playing well. He will be a most welcome addition to the Comets if he gets signed. One poster actually said Graovac could make the Canucks roster. I don't see any chance of that.

Bulldog is playing very well. I still think Vancouver goes with their usual 13 forwards and 8 D.

Consensus during the game last night was Chatfield is not looking good, chasing the puck and having difficulty with his head\first pass. Wow, something new! Not.

Rafferty and Teves not getting high accolades, especially since they are 24-ys-old rookies.

Sautner and Brisebois getting mixed reviews. Saunter getting the better of the 2. Neither getting the kind of praise befitting the guys meant to carry the Comets D and without any veteran D-men they will be looked upon to be the go to guys. That's not a rosy picture.

Haven't seen mention of Blujus or LeBlanc at all. Eliot scored a goal, but otherwise received little in the way of positive play.

A bunch were really down on Boucher. A one trick pony. Has a great shot, but doesn't do much else. Kind of like we see here. Leads the team in goals and points, but is on the ice for nearly as many goals against. MacEwen, who will likely be the opposite wing on his line, had the same problem last year. He's getting mixed reviews as well, but not making a big splash.

Most are all over the 2 #2 draft picks, Gadjovich and Lind. Lind appears to be playing a more responsible defensive game, but offensively playing much as he did here last year. Gadj is just getting panned mercilessly with his skating being the #1 reason target of abuse. I have said many time this off-season that he could end up fighting keep a spot on the 18 man game day roster. He'll be there to start, but if his game remains status quo he will find himself in the well watching through the glass.

Haven't seen squat about Perron, but Bailey is impressing some watchers.

Bachman had a big game in his start, a 3-2 OT victory in Calgary. It was a game played mostly by Comets and a few of the lesser acclaimed Canucks and in the dog house Virtanen. Jake scored the tying and OT goals. Most fans said Bachie's outing wasn't pretty but he stopped a ****load of shots from a group including quite a few of the Flames better players. It was really and AHL laden team vs an NHL heavy roster.

More games in the next few days through Sunday. I would think Comets cuts should be fairly close to complete by Monday.

 

[Askel]

i think the burning off signings has been a huge win.

it's an excellent developmental tool. there is no better way for a player to get a taste of the nhl than in their peak condition on a team that can gift them icetime with no expectations. i would say developmentally that seeing what is involved before the summer starts, working with trainers in game conditions, and having the chance to forge relationships with the pro-players before the summer to talk to about how to be a pro is huge.

plus it starts off the team relationship on a generous note and promotes goodwill that encourages other ncaa players to look at us as an option.

it's also worked beneficially in reverse with molino and the rafferty/teves signings by getting rid of elcs.

it has also arguably paid for itself on a bad team by boosting fan interest during garbage time at the end of the season and having something tangible and positive to talk about selling season tickets.

I don't agree at all that its a great developmental tool, it probably works for elite prospects like Boeser and Hughes but not for players like Gaudette, Madden, Lockwood, teves, . I think finishing the year in the AHL+ hopefully AHL playoffs would have been better for Gaudette.

How did it help with Rafferty, Molino and Teves? If they are not worth a contract, they could have been evaluated on an ATO and someone good could have been signed.

 

[VanJack]

I don't agree at all that its a great developmental tool, it probably works for elite prospects like Boeser and Hughes but not for players like Gaudette, Madden, Lockwood, teves, . I think finishing the year in the AHL+ hopefully AHL playoffs would have been better for Gaudette.

How did it help with Rafferty, Molino and Teves? If they are not worth a contract, they could have been evaluated on an ATO and someone good could have been signed.

I suspect if the Canucks hadn't been willing to play these players a few games in the last weeks of a dead NHL season, and therefore blow off a year of their ELC eligibility, they'd have probably signed elsewhere. And I suspect if the Canucks do end up signing Lockwood and Madden in March, they'll probably have to adopt the same strategy.

The only way these players would ever play in Utica would be if they signed ATO's. Not likely to ever happen.

 

[Askel]

I suspect if the Canucks hadn't been willing to play these players a few games in the last weeks of a dead NHL season, and therefore blow off a year of their ELC eligibility, they'd have probably signed elsewhere. And I suspect if the Canucks do end up signing Lockwood and Madden in March, they'll probably have to adopt the same strategy.

The only way these players would ever play in Utica would be if they signed ATO's. Not likely to ever happen.

Gaudette couldn't have signed anywhere else, he would have had to go back to school for an entire year. Sure he loses one year before his ELC is up, but if probably would have come better prepared if he had finished the year in the AHL. As I said above I have no trouble using this method on elite prospects, but I dont see it as a great development tool for guys like Teves, Molino and Rafferty. If guys of that caliber want to sign somewhere else then let them. And players like Madden, Gaudette and Lockwood should be told that finishing their year in the AHL getting useful icetime and deployment would be best for their development.

 

[VanJack]

On paper at least, Comets could find goals a little easier to come by this year. Graovac looks like a solid signing; and guys like Boucher, Camper, Perron and Bailey have demonstrated they're decent goal-scorers at the AHL level. And if Gaudette ends up in the AHL I'd expect him to be able to generate some offense right away, particularly on the pp.

And the last line of defense--goaltending--looks to be in reasonably good hands. Both Bachman and McIntyre have had pretty solid camps so far. Question marks on the blueline, but hopefully kids like Juolevi, Sautner, Brisebois and Chatfield can continue to build their resumes in the AHL. And vets like Blujus and Fantenberg would help.

Lol...but I guess every team in the AHL is undefeated in September. So a few weeks of optimism before the real season starts is always a positive.

 

[Bad Goalie]

Blujus is not a vet. He is only 25, one year older than Raffferty and Teves. They chose college over the AHL, but then again neither was ever drafted making the AHL a place they were unlikely to ever see before now.

Blujus does not count as a Vet or Vet exempt by AHL rules because he has not played enough games to qualify as such having only played 239 AHL games. He was scratched often early on last season just like the previous one because the Vancouver prospects got priority ice time. Hard to help solidify the D sitting behind the glass at the end of the arena. His ice time went up just as it did the previous year when injuries opened uo the door. At that point in both seasons he proved to be one of the team's top defenders and every Comets prospect paired with him played much better. Sautner and Blujus in the 2017-18 season became the team's top D-pairing.

The Comets can ice six Vancouver prospects seeing 7 and leave Blujus and LeBlanc waiting for an injury. If those are Cull's orders, I'm glad I'm not one of the keepers. Technically 4 rookies with Sautner and Brisebois assigned to 2 of them with Chatfield and the other 2 rookies fighting it out for the 5th and 6th spots. Sautner and Brisebois have both played well below their abilities when saddled with a player that needed cover. Their best hockey has been played when paired with a vet or otherwise competent defender, e.g. Blujus, Sifers, McEneny, Wiercioch, Holm or each other.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

@Bad Goalie Lukas Jasek of all people has been playing center in the exhibition games do far. Tonight he doubled on right point on the pp. Played pretty well, scored a goal and was his usual positionally sound self.

 

[VanJack]

@Bad Goalie Lukas Jasek of all people has been playing center in the exhibition games do far. Tonight he doubled on right point on the pp. Played pretty well, scored a goal and was his usual positionally sound self.

I noticed that as well....maybe the Canucks braintrust sees him as a center down the road....but has he every played center in Utica or taken a single face-off?

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

I noticed that as well....maybe the Canucks braintrust sees him as a center down the road....but has he every played center in Utica or taken a single face-off?

No he hasn't, at least not last year. Not to my knowledge. I know we drafted him out of Czech Jrs as a rw.

Also, playing the right point on the pp is a brand new idea too as far as I know. I'm not sure where all of this is coming from but it's interesting isn't it.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

Goals from the Utica contingent tonight: