Prospect Info: 2018/19 Marlies & Prospects Thread Part V

[BoredBrandonPridham]

When all your rookies barely get past that stage and need traded you are left with rookies to try and win a cup with. Would you like to bet that vet D are better than rookie D? I guess we can just trade Rielly in a few years though to keep Sandin and Lilj

When you have a gluttony of good players, it's OK to trade some of them for either a deep cup run, futures and quality cheap depth while asking other teams to retain. That's the only realistic way to stay competitive for 10+ years -- to be reliably developing good young players in the AHL like this.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

I'm with you on this, I run a corporate relocation company that manages employee transfers for big corporations and government bodies that move people between countries with wildly different taxation systems, and the employer often offers the employee a gross-up to their top line income to leave them at the same bottom line income when being moved from a lower to a higher tax jurisdiction. The concept you're talking about is very similar to something that's been working in the real world for 60ish years

You would have to have a way of keeping player agents/arbitrators in the lower tax jurisdictions from trying to use the tax-adjusted gross amounts for the same of comparables when they're in negotiations, but you could just designate a "comparison value" and "adjusted value" or something along those lings

But change of residency is very different than change of NHL team.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I'm with you on this, I run a corporate relocation company that manages employee transfers for big corporations and government bodies that move people between countries with wildly different taxation systems, and the employer often offers the employee a gross-up to their top line income to leave them at the same bottom line income when being moved from a lower to a higher tax jurisdiction. The concept you're talking about is very similar to something that's been working in the real world for 60ish years

You would have to have a way of keeping player agents/arbitrators in the lower tax jurisdictions from trying to use the tax-adjusted gross amounts for the same of comparables when they're in negotiations, but you could just designate a "comparison value" and "adjusted value" or something along those lings

Yes you could but doubt to that exact percentage. There are too many variables that are different for every player. Where games are played, how they travel there, citizenship, residence, home ownership, deferral corporations, corporate ownership and even how many days spent federally in different countries.

And how would you deal with counter from Tampa who would argue that they don't have the non-hockey sponsorship's and contacts the Leafs have available? MLSE can move money around between entities. MLSE is owned partly by Bell who can sponsor a player away from team. There is conflict which can never ever be figured out here. and it is in the millions per year. this completely gets around the cAP - see tavares. and soon to be Marner.

 

[Randy Randerson]

But change of residency is very different than change of NHL team.

it's not, it's a comparison between tax jurisdictions at it's core. I'm not saying you apply the exact same program, I'm saying the concept works. In this case we're really not talking about a player changing teams either, we're talking about a cap adjustment for the higher tax jurisdiction teams to level the playing field. No GM should ever face a player agent bringing up income taxes as a bargaining chip, that's a ludicrous premise because it effectively means that different teams have different salary caps.

Yes you could but doubt to that exact percentage. There are too many variables that are different for every player. Where games are played, how they travel there, citizenship, residence, home ownership, deferral corporations, corporate ownership and even how many days spent federally in different countries.

And how would you deal with counter from Tampa who would argue that they don't have the non-hockey sponsorship's and contacts the Leafs have available? MLSE can move money around between entities. MLSE is owned partly by Bell who can sponsor a player away from team. There is conflict which can never ever be figured out here. and it is in the millions per year. this completely gets around the cAP - see tavares. and soon to be Marner.

all of the travel is the same as a frequent business traveler program which is widely used in industry and government today, the big accounting firms literally do podcasts on this issue: Frequent Business Traveller Issues

and in this case, you have the luxury of knowing where all of the games will be played a year in advance. It's a lot of math, but it's something that is very, very doable.

I don't think Tampa would object, Tampa's player's agents might

 

[JT AM da real deal]

What you are missing is every player does his own taxes. Players get hurt. Players do not dress every game. Players do not travel to every game. Some players with big money contracts hire the big accounting firms to set up the corporations and get the deferrals some don't have the money to pay for the advice which is unique to every players situation. And someone would have to do the calc for every player based on a standardized formula. if a player does not work into the formula then oh well.

and tampa and leafs governors already have had it out on the complexities of these issues at board level. just ask larry.

 

[thewave]

When you have a gluttony of good players, it's OK to trade some of them for either a deep cup run, futures and quality cheap depth while asking other teams to retain. That's the only realistic way to stay competitive for 10+ years -- to be reliably developing good young players in the AHL like this.

The Crux of the matter is the overpay expectations established by Dubas and you know it. 10% premium per player or more based on internal comparables adds up quickly to losing a guy like Rielly. Rielly could be the difference of a cup or not.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

it's not, it's a comparison between tax jurisdictions at it's core.

But the most important tax factors will be the player’s residency not the location of the team. Also would be quite different for SB, PB, regular salary.

Maybe something exists that might work and it would provide marginal benefit, but let’s not pretend it’s some simple no brainer exercise or even worth the effort.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

The Crux of the matter is the overpay expectations established by Dubas and you know it. 10% premium per player or more based on internal comparables adds up quickly to losing a guy like Rielly. Rielly could be the difference of a cup or not.

Paying your core players 10% more than market value (which they aren’t) is not anything to worry about. It’s paying replacement level players 50-75% more than market value.

 

[ChazzMichaelMichaels]

Curious to see who Korshkov's line-mates are gonna be tonight.

 

[WillNy29]

Sure, but to say that it's impossible to look at a series of tax returns, and determine what, if any variances there are by jurisdiction isn't possible? Surely you should expect that most could take a look at such returns, and eliminate any extraordinary deductions, non-hockey related items, etc, and come up with a graph showing some degree of what taxes are "normal and expected" within any jurisdiction, by profession, and use it, if necessary to even out any uneven playing fields... or determine that there really isn't one, despite that perception. You must agree, that such an exercise, while perhaps time consuming, wouldn't be particularly challenging.

I guess impossible was too harsh but Id say it would be time consumig and challenging due to the number od different things these folks do. In theory youre correct but remember that youd also only be adjusting the tax portion of the cap in that jurisdiction for 41 games whereas earnings in different locales would need to be considered (other 41 games) it would be a complex and time consuming exercise in my opinion

 

[WillNy29]

I'm with you on this, I run a corporate relocation company that manages employee transfers for big corporations and government bodies that move people between countries with wildly different taxation systems, and the employer often offers the employee a gross-up to their top line income to leave them at the same bottom line income when being moved from a lower to a higher tax jurisdiction. The concept you're talking about is very similar to something that's been working in the real world for 60ish years

You would have to have a way of keeping player agents/arbitrators in the lower tax jurisdictions from trying to use the tax-adjusted gross amounts for the same of comparables when they're in negotiations, but you could just designate a "comparison value" and "adjusted value" or something along those lings

The biggest concern here is the application of jock tax treaty and how residency works. I am 100% sure that majority of athletes dont get paid the salary directly it goes into a holdco on their behalf at which point to avoid double taxation they punp the money through as dividends rather than salary.

On the residency front majority of MLB players in California have their residencies in states like Texas and get their contracts designed in a way to pay almost 99% as a yearly bonus during the winter when theyre in Texas so they get almost no tax impact on that much ssalary. This is similar to the leafs using the bonuses and setting them to pay out before FA each year. It serves multiple purposes. It helps them have creative contracts for cap purposes and allows the player to take up a conneticut residency during that period and only pay the treaty tax.

 

[MyBudJT]

Curious to see who Korshkov's line-mates are gonna be tonight.

You'd think Timashov would be one, no?

 

[thewave]

Paying your core players 10% more than market value (which they aren’t) is not anything to worry about. It’s paying replacement level players 50-75% more than market value.

You're not addressing reality. AJ already refused, he has arb rights and a case can be made per production. 60 pts player 7m and 40pts with unstable usage is what? It sounds like they offered peanuts. He'll be awarded in the 4s and Kappy will want the same, we can't afford that now.

Dubas dropped the prized China and shattered our cap structure.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

You're not addressing reality. AJ already refused, he has arb rights and a case can be made per production. 60 pts player 7m and 40pts with unstable usage is what? It sounds like they offered peanuts. He'll be awarded in the 4s and Kappy will want the same, we can't afford that now.

Dubas dropped the prized China and shattered our cap structure.

Johnsson is not the prized China. He's just going to arbitration like many other arbitration eligible RFAs do and he'll be offered something comparable to other players that have his body of work. The team already has an idea what that is and can choose to trade him for assets ahead of arbitration election, like many teams do with their young rising replacement level forwards with good AHL depth knocking on the door.

 

[thewave]

Johnsson is not the prized China. He's just going to arbitration like many other arbitration eligible RFAs do and he'll be offered something comparable to other players that have his body of work. The team already has an idea what that is and can choose to trade him for assets ahead of arbitration election, like many teams do with their young rising replacement level forwards with good AHL depth knocking on the door.

The prized China is the cap structure. It dictates our depth from here until the end. Overpays = less depth = lower odds of winning the prize.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

The prized China is the cap structure. It dictates our depth from here until the end. Overpays = less depth = lower odds of winning the prize.

Similar core salary structure to Pitts, Chicago when looking at how much room there is for depth.

 

[thewave]

Similar core salary structure to Pitts, Chicago when looking at how much room there is for depth.

One team lost depth after winning and awarding contracts. The other gave money after winning and never got close. In Pitts case they only got close nearing the end of Malkin and Crosby 8 year deals (not 5) plus we discounted a top NHL scorer to 6.5m which kicked off the winning again.

You can't honestly be ignoring this stuff.

 

[Bigmarycombo]

WHy don’t you Guys start a TAX thread so the rest of us can talk about our prospects.

 

[hockeynorth]

WHy don’t you Guys start a TAX thread so the rest of us can talk about our prospects.

Please, I’m sifting through this looking for prospect talk.

Can someone tell me what timashov is doing lately heard lots of talk on him, and what’s the plan for korshkov anyone know?

 

[Randy Randerson]

But the most important tax factors will be the player’s residency not the location of the team. Also would be quite different for SB, PB, regular salary.

Maybe something exists that might work and it would provide marginal benefit, but let’s not pretend it’s some simple no brainer exercise or even worth the effort.

I think you believe that this profession is somehow different from other professions where a great deal of working travel is involved, it's really not. There would even be existing similar constraints to salary caps, like pay equity mandates, to benchmark similar positions to similar net pays across different tax jurisdictions within large organizations. It would definitely be it's own system, not something out of the box, but the concepts are already working and have been for a long time.

And you're wrong about a player's residency being the most important factor, it's a blend of considerations, players are taxed first where they earn their money

this is an absolutely achievable goal if the league were so inclined, and if net pay arguments become commonplace in negotiations then it would be worthwhile

The biggest concern here is the application of jock tax treaty and how residency works. I am 100% sure that majority of athletes dont get paid the salary directly it goes into a holdco on their behalf at which point to avoid double taxation they punp the money through as dividends rather than salary.

On the residency front majority of MLB players in California have their residencies in states like Texas and get their contracts designed in a way to pay almost 99% as a yearly bonus during the winter when theyre in Texas so they get almost no tax impact on that much ssalary. This is similar to the leafs using the bonuses and setting them to pay out before FA each year. It serves multiple purposes. It helps them have creative contracts for cap purposes and allows the player to take up a conneticut residency during that period and only pay the treaty tax.

I think this would be looked at as tax evasion in most jurisdictions, but I think the application of some assumptions like "as if you were taking your salary as personal income" would have to apply to the calculation. The NHL player body has the downfall of many players being from extremely high income tax countries like Canada and Scandinavia so it's harder to have those workarounds like declaring residence in a certain low or no-tax state because the home country taxes above whatever is collected by the country/state of residence (this is true of Canada, I think it depends which other country you're talking about as to whether they do as well but foreign nationals are still part of the tax base for most)

WHy don’t you Guys start a TAX thread so the rest of us can talk about our prospects.

fair, this is a bit of an offshoot but I doubt it lives long. I'll hop off this topic after this post

 

[Mr Hockey]

Please, I’m sifting through this looking for prospect talk.

Can someone tell me what timashov is doing lately heard lots of talk on him, and what’s the plan for korshkov anyone know?

Timashov is playing really good hockey these days, he has upped his game in the 2nd half of this season, I think one more year in the AHL and he could be NHL ready.

according to Keefe, korshkov may play tonight but they don't want to rush him in yet, he doesn't speak English, just got here,etc

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

One team lost depth after winning and awarding contracts. The other gave money after winning and never got close. In Pitts case they only got close nearing the end of Malkin and Crosby 8 year deals (not 5) plus we discounted a top NHL scorer to 6.5m which kicked off the winning again.

You can't honestly be ignoring this stuff.

You can't honestly ignore the amount of times you said "win" in that post, describing their "disastrous" cap structure.

 

[thewave]

You can't honestly ignore the amount of times you said "win" in that post, describing their "disastrous" cap structure.

Wrong. Chicago paid big, never won again, aren't even close. Pitts paid past 8 years under old rules and never won until recently near the twilight of EM and SC. Phil Kessel was given for a song. Pitts also is about to restructure. LA is another paying big, didn't qualify.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Wrong. Chicago paid big, never won again, aren't even close. Pitts paid past 8 years under old rules and never won until recently near the twilight of EM and SC. Phil Kessel was given for a song. Pitts also is about to restructure. LA is another paying big, didn't qualify.

Yet these are teams that were in contention for a decade -- paying their core. They've had chances for a long time, that's the best you can offer as a guarantee as a competent management staff, if you do it for 10 years you have a good shot at a cup.

It's hilarious you seem to think that the thing holding those teams back is Crosby/Malkin salaries or Toews/Kane salaries. Chicago holding them back has been Toews'/Seabrook decline (expensive replacement level players).

Pittsburgh has been a legit contender for over 10yrs you should listen to yourself talk about them as an example in your favour.

 

[hockeywiz542]

7 Marlies who could crack the Maple Leafs' lineup next season - Sportsnet.ca

OH, FOR SURE

Trevor Moore

Calle Rosen

SERIOUS CONTENDERS

Rasmus Sandin

Jeremy Bracco

WORTH A HARD LOOK

Pierre Engvall

Andreas Borgman

Timothy Liljegren

ON THE RADAR

• Dmytro Timashov

• Mason Marchment

• Adam Brooks

• Egor Korshkov

• Mac Hollowell