2018-19 Colorado Eagles (AHL) and Utah Grizzlies (ECHL)

[Nzap]

How many is the appropriate number though? There’s already Tynan, Megna, MacDonald, Renouf and Alt. Or if they send down someone like Barberio, Graves or Lindholm comes back. How about anyone internal like Joly that’s been around for several years? They usually add a couple more vets by camp and also during the season. How many is too many, where’s the line?

I totally see value in good AHL vets and each year the hope is they get the mix right. It’s a delicate balance between having the appropriate amount of leadership and letting prospects grow into bigger roles when in fact the opposite tends to happen. Several years ago when the Rampage won 5 games in the second half of the season they actually had spent big money on AHL vets; O’Brien, Whitney and Sislo which worked out so poorly they had to end up trading the latter two. When they find good vets like Alex Belzile I wish they could keep them around instead of hoping the new batch works out but I get there’s always a need for vets to a certain degree.

Oof, I remember being so excited for SAR that year with Sislo as the effective vet.
That went so, so badly.

 

[S E P H]

I wonder if Condra is a potential Greer replacement?

 

[henchman21]

I wouldn't automatically pencil Tynan to the Eagles... I'd say there is a very real change he is the extra forward to start the season.

If you look at the actual contracts the Avs have destined for the minors (will include Tynan here)... they have 10Fs (with 2 RFAs) 7D (with 1 RFA) and 1G (with no RFA). There are some Eagle contracts, but they need to fill a roster along with sending some to Utah. The defensemen RFA is unlikely to re-sign here. The two forwards will re-sign, so they will have a full group with NHL contracts (then the few guys who have AHL deals). When you look at that group up front, there are two that shouldn't be in the AHL (Dickinson and Barron)... so really 10 quality AHL forwards under NHL contracts (need at least 3 quality players to fill the Eagles roster). On defense, that includes Byram who is NHL or WHL and Anderson who is ECHL material at best... so 5 defensemen including Timmins. They probably get a gift of a fringe NHL guy so they might have 6 if Timmins is healthy. Meaning 2-3 more needed. At goalie they have Werner and Miska... needing another goalie there at very minimum. Maybe 2. So as I see it, they could add 2 or 3 more good names and still have plenty of space.

I know many don't want to hear it, but the only development names that matter highly in the AHL are Timmins, Kaut and Bowers. Meloche, Shvy, Lewis, Henry, and LOC are bonus sorts of prospects at this point. They'll have to earn their keep, and when it comes down to it, if they can't... they'll never cut it in the NHL anyway.

 

[AvsRobin]

What's the point of bringing Nantel back on an AHL deal? I get that Condra can actually lift the team and make them better. But Nantel is just taking up a spot with zero upside?

 

[Pokecheque]

How many is the appropriate number though? There’s already Tynan, Megna, MacDonald, Renouf and Alt. Or if they send down someone like Barberio, Graves or Lindholm comes back. How about anyone internal like Joly that’s been around for several years? They usually add a couple more vets by camp and also during the season. How many is too many, where’s the line?

I totally see value in good AHL vets and each year the hope is they get the mix right. It’s a delicate balance between having the appropriate amount of leadership and letting prospects grow into bigger roles when in fact the opposite tends to happen. Several years ago when the Rampage won 5 games in the second half of the season they actually had spent big money on AHL vets; O’Brien, Whitney and Sislo which worked out so poorly they had to end up trading the latter two. When they find good vets like Alex Belzile I wish they could keep them around instead of hoping the new batch works out but I get there’s always a need for vets to a certain degree.

That said Condra has been successful in the AHL and I’m surprised they got him on an AHL deal as it is so he will probably be a good player. As always it’s wait and see how the roster and lineup actually shake out.

Someone else on here pointed out to me the best AHL "vets" tend to be the guys who could still carve out a role at the NHL level as opposed to high-end AHL lifers (aka the Brian Willsies and Darren Haydars of the league). I feel like the Avs focused way too much on the latter and not nearly enough on the former, maybe now that's changing.

I wouldn't automatically pencil Tynan to the Eagles... I'd say there is a very real change he is the extra forward to start the season.

If you look at the actual contracts the Avs have destined for the minors (will include Tynan here)... they have 10Fs (with 2 RFAs) 7D (with 1 RFA) and 1G (with no RFA). There are some Eagle contracts, but they need to fill a roster along with sending some to Utah. The defensemen RFA is unlikely to re-sign here. The two forwards will re-sign, so they will have a full group with NHL contracts (then the few guys who have AHL deals). When you look at that group up front, there are two that shouldn't be in the AHL (Dickinson and Barron)... so really 10 quality AHL forwards under NHL contracts (need at least 3 quality players to fill the Eagles roster). On defense, that includes Byram who is NHL or WHL and Anderson who is ECHL material at best... so 5 defensemen including Timmins. They probably get a gift of a fringe NHL guy so they might have 6 if Timmins is healthy. Meaning 2-3 more needed. At goalie they have Werner and Miska... needing another goalie there at very minimum. Maybe 2. So as I see it, they could add 2 or 3 more good names and still have plenty of space.

I know many don't want to hear it, but the only development names that matter highly in the AHL are Timmins, Kaut and Bowers. Meloche, Shvy, Lewis, Henry, and LOC are bonus sorts of prospects at this point. They'll have to earn their keep, and when it comes down to it, if they can't... they'll never cut it in the NHL anyway.

Totally agree with this. Those other guys are icing on the cake but we all know they're long shots for the NHL. At some point they really will need to develop some role players instead of paying a premium via free agency, but IMO they've bought themselves some time.

 

[henchman21]

What's the point of bringing Nantel back on an AHL deal? I get that Condra can actually lift the team and make them better. But Nantel is just taking up a spot with zero upside?

Scratch depth... knows the team and system. I broke it down in my post, but basically they got 10 AHL quality forwards with NHL contracts. Add in Joly, Condra, and Saigeon (hopefully) and you're up to 12 /13 AHL quality forwards... just barely enough to ice. Nantel, Dickinson, and Barron are your extra 2-3 forwards eating nachos for when injuries arise. The Eagles/Avs will actually need 3-4 more to have the extras and fill out some of Utah's top 6. I would have gone a different direction, but as an AHL/ECHL fringe role player Nantel makes sense.

 

[Pokecheque]

Is there already not room for Dries? Much as I like the guy it still seems a tad silly that there's going to be an arbitration hearing.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Someone else on here pointed out to me the best AHL "vets" tend to be the guys who could still carve out a role at the NHL level as opposed to high-end AHL lifers (aka the Brian Willsies and Darren Haydars of the league). I feel like the Avs focused way too much on the latter and not nearly enough on the former, maybe now that's changing.



Totally agree with this. Those other guys are icing on the cake but we all know they're long shots for the NHL. At some point they really will need to develop some role players instead of paying a premium via free agency, but IMO they've bought themselves some time.

I would say the opposite, you’d rather have vets who know their role and are comfortable being in a mentor/leadership position in the AHL than someone who is still trying to claw their way up to the NHL. (TBH some of their problem was bringing in top guys from the eastern conference, those who are familiar with the west seems to work out better).

To me that’s what Tynan is, he has a total of 3 NHL games 3 seasons ago. He’s getting paid $450k to be the 1C and put up points in Loveland. If they get desperate enough for a vet fill-in then Megna might be a more attractive option. There’s still Dries like you said who is probably going to get paid way too much and they have to sort out Kamenev or if you still have hope Greer.

 

[Pokecheque]

I would say the opposite, you’d rather have vets who know their role and are comfortable being in a mentor/leadership position in the AHL than someone who is still trying to claw their way up to the NHL. (TBH some of their problem was bringing in top guys from the eastern conference, those who are familiar with the west seems to work out better).

To me that’s what Tynan is, he has a total of 3 NHL games 3 seasons ago. He’s getting paid $450k to be the 1C and put up points in Loveland. If they get desperate enough for a vet fill-in then Megna might be a more attractive option. There’s still Dries like you said who is probably going to get paid way too much and they have to sort out Kamenev or if you still have hope Greer.

Well, there's a big difference between someone who can carve out a role in the NHL and their desire to do so. Condra strikes me as a guy who can play in the NHL but that isn't his primary focus.

And just because a guy is an AHL lifer doesn't necessarily mean he sees himself that way, as proven by the infamous Darren Haydar Meltdown in Cleveland.

Time and time again they went for AHL lifers and it has never worked out apart from the odd Agozzino pickup. They need to change their approach.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Condra accepted an AHL deal so he’s giving up the NHL part of it now.

I guess there’s two ways to look at those lifers, those who made it and those who haven’t. A few guys who had games in the NHL hang around the minors when they could have gone to Europe long ago.

It’s all about mindset imo, a guy like Tynan never made it but seems very comfortable being a top AHL scorer. Everyone is different obviously but I think it’s important to find those who are happy in that role because their attitude and mindframe is what the org is banking on to help mentor the prospects. Those who want to be somewhere else isn’t a great bet.

 

[cgf]

How many prospects are there in Loveland who are ready/we expect to be ready to be part of a competitive AHL team? I feel like Kaut, Bowers, Shvy, Lewis, LOC, Timmins, Meloche & Rosen -- if he even ends up getting sent down -- are the ones that we would win significant roles in an ideal scenario...with the likes of Saigeon, Barron, Dickinson, Henry & Anderson, playing big roles in Utah or winning depth gigs when injuries start to hit.

And unless I'm spazzing on anyone, we've still got space for them to win those gigs even with Tynan, Megna, Dries, Condra, MacDonald, Renouf, Alt & Lindholm in tow. Especially with how much you have to rotate through your depth in the AHL.

I mean what does your ideal AHL roster look like from a prospect development perspective? Do those vets prevents us from doing so unless they just absolutely suck for us, despite getting more & more favorable usage to try and get something out of them...like we have seen happen before, unfortunately.

 

[JLo217]

Is there already not room for Dries? Much as I like the guy it still seems a tad silly that there's going to be an arbitration hearing.

I mean what is Dries gonna say. I played some hockey and did almost nothing?

 

[Pokecheque]

I mean what is Dries gonna say. I played some hockey and did almost nothing?

Well...I mean, he scored a lot more than I ever would've expected him to score at the NHL level.

The funny thing is, he really didn't do much more in terms of production at the AHL level either.

I still think he's fine as a 14th "tweener" forward you can call up if need be or stow in the press box. Dude's a'ight as far as penalty killers go too, way, way better than Gork.

 

[tigervixxxen]

How many prospects are there in Loveland who are ready/we expect to be ready to be part of a competitive AHL team? I feel like Kaut, Bowers, Shvy, Lewis, LOC, Timmins, Meloche & Rosen -- if he even ends up getting sent down -- are the ones that we would win significant roles in an ideal scenario...with the likes of Saigeon, Barron, Dickinson, Henry & Anderson, playing big roles in Utah or winning depth gigs when injuries start to hit.

And unless I'm spazzing on anyone, we've still got space for them to win those gigs even with Tynan, Megna, Dries, Condra, MacDonald, Renouf, Alt & Lindholm in tow. Especially with how much you have to rotate through your depth in the AHL.

I mean what does your ideal AHL roster look like from a prospect development perspective? Do those vets prevents us from doing so unless they just absolutely suck for us, despite getting more & more favorable usage to try and get something out of them...like we have seen happen before, unfortunately.

I’ll take my best stab at this. More what I think will happen than my hopes and dreams.

So if EJ is healthy to start the season I think that puts Graves in Loveland, if he’s iffy then they’ll keep Graves. Barb is ticketed for 7th D regardless. I think they want to give Rosen a shot but he’s waiver exempt while Graves is not. Unless Rosen really has a poor camp and preseason I think he gets the spot anyway. I don’t think Byram is going to figure in unless he’s dominating or there’s another injury.

So that makes the Eagles D:

MacDonald-Alt
Renouf-Meloche
Graves-Timmins

I guess Lindholm is hoping for either EJ or Timmins to not be healthy because otherwise I don’t see where he fits in or what the plan for him is.

It’s tough to sort the forwards until we see how they envision the role for the vets. Henry will get an early chance, the vibe from his short stint in the spring indicated that. They’ll play Saigeon at some point too, someone is always injured.

Greer-Tynan-Megna
Kaut-Bowers-Condra
Henry-Dries-Joly
Lewis-Shvyrev-O’Connor

 

[CobraAcesS]

I’ll take my best stab at this. More what I think will happen than my hopes and dreams.

So if EJ is healthy to start the season I think that puts Graves in Loveland, if he’s iffy then they’ll keep Graves. Barb is ticketed for 7th D regardless. I think they want to give Rosen a shot but he’s waiver exempt while Graves is not. Unless Rosen really has a poor camp and preseason I think he gets the spot anyway. I don’t think Byram is going to figure in unless he’s dominating or there’s another injury.

So that makes the Eagles D:

MacDonald-Alt
Renouf-Meloche
Graves-Timmins

I guess Lindholm is hoping for either EJ or Timmins to not be healthy because otherwise I don’t see where he fits in or what the plan for him is.

It’s tough to sort the forwards until we see how they envision the role for the vets. Henry will get an early chance, the vibe from his short stint in the spring indicated that. They’ll play Saigeon at some point too, someone is always injured.

Greer-Tynan-Megna
Kaut-Bowers-Condra
Henry-Dries-Joly
Lewis-Shvyrev-O’Connor

I could see that, but I could also see them GNF about sending Barbs down. I think they'd end up choosing putting him through waivers over Graves at this point. That being the move that is dictated by how Rosen and or Byram show in camp. While Barbs is respected, that only goes so far.

 

[Pokecheque]

I’ll take my best stab at this. More what I think will happen than my hopes and dreams.

So if EJ is healthy to start the season I think that puts Graves in Loveland, if he’s iffy then they’ll keep Graves. Barb is ticketed for 7th D regardless. I think they want to give Rosen a shot but he’s waiver exempt while Graves is not. Unless Rosen really has a poor camp and preseason I think he gets the spot anyway. I don’t think Byram is going to figure in unless he’s dominating or there’s another injury.

So that makes the Eagles D:

MacDonald-Alt
Renouf-Meloche
Graves-Timmins

I guess Lindholm is hoping for either EJ or Timmins to not be healthy because otherwise I don’t see where he fits in or what the plan for him is.

It’s tough to sort the forwards until we see how they envision the role for the vets. Henry will get an early chance, the vibe from his short stint in the spring indicated that. They’ll play Saigeon at some point too, someone is always injured.

Greer-Tynan-Megna
Kaut-Bowers-Condra
Henry-Dries-Joly
Lewis-Shvyrev-O’Connor

I'll be super-irritated if they opt to keep Rosen and waive Graves, unless the latter has a bad camp.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I could see that, but I could also see them GNF about sending Barbs down. I think they'd end up choosing putting him through waivers over Graves at this point. That being the move that is dictated by how Rosen and or Byram show in camp. While Barbs is respected, that only goes so far.

Sure, I could see that scenario too. Barb is a tough one to sort how they feel about him and what he can contribute. But for planning purposes I think the Eagles get one vet D from the Avs, I guess it’s Lindholm if they don’t.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Sure, I could see that scenario too. Barb is a tough one to sort how they feel about him and what he can contribute. But for planning purposes I think the Eagles get one vet D from the Avs, I guess it’s Lindholm if they don’t.

I just think they tend to get all warm and fuzzy about some of these guys like Guenin, Holdem, and Barbs, but the cord cutting seems to come with very little in the way of giving guys much of a chance to recover. Especially if they even remotely think they have a younger better option.

I know not many people believe in Graves, but hes been consistent. Neither Barbs or Nemeth were consistent in the way they played every night IMO. Nemeth being better this last year, but before that I'd have taken Barbs 100% of the time. Lots of excuses for that, but if we think the cards are stacked against some of these fringe guys like Greer, Kam, Barbs, Cotton, and Graves I think the list goes a bit like this..

Byram (He'll start here simply due to pedigree IMO, but could lose it quickly)

Timmins (Because logic is not always the reason for decisions)

Graves (They know him, and hes actually already earned some trust. All he has to do is hold ground to at least keep the #7 slot IMO)

Rosen (Potential, but not waiver eligible)

Barbs (Will be saddled with having to prove last year was just due to injuries, and has already lost some trust)

Cotton (Complete unknown beyond pro scouting. If it is even close to a coin toss between him and someone else in camp he'll lose IMO)

Bednar really only ever follows Sakic's plans with highly touted rookies, or more high profile players. Middle of the roster guys and fringe players Bednar does not seem to give two shits. Evidence by lack of trying guys on the PP or in other roles we thought they were being brought in for in the past. Also Bednar's comments always seem to be something like "I don't know the guy. I'll have to do my research."

For me it seems pretty clear cut, but I think Cotton is a non factor and was little more than a body they took back so AZ could dump some salary.

Opening night IMO

Girard - Makar
Byram - EJ
Zadorov - Timmins
Graves

I seriously do not think they will be able to help themselves if Timmins shows well in camp. A bit of a bold prediction, but even without Timmins there one of Cotton or Barbs is getting waived. I don't see them sending either Greer or Kam through waivers until later. Too much risk of losing them over Cotton or Barbs. Obviously depth trades could come into play, but it wouldn't change much IMO.

 

[Pokecheque]

Bednar really only ever follows Sakic's plans with highly touted rookies, or more high profile players. Middle of the roster guys and fringe players Bednar does not seem to give two ****s. Evidence by lack of trying guys on the PP or in other roles we thought they were being brought in for in the past. Also Bednar's comments always seem to be something like "I don't know the guy. I'll have to do my research."

I really don't believe this to be true at all. He was the guy who started Zadorov on the top pairing with EJ his first season, and he used not-highly-touted rookies like Kerfoot and Compher on the power play. And as far as fringe players go...I'm not sure, should he really care about them all that much? Most coaches don't.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I really don't believe this to be true at all. He was the guy who started Zadorov on the top pairing with EJ his first season, and he used not-highly-touted rookies like Kerfoot and Compher on the power play. And as far as fringe players go...I'm not sure, should he really care about them all that much? Most coaches don't.

Younger guys? Sure, but I pointed that out. Highly touted probably didn't need to be there to make my point. Also there was really nothing in front of those guys like there is now. I'm not talking guys that are 24 either. Basically guys that are on their ELCs. Sakic's reclamation projects nah..

You failed to use Girard as an example as well. I was a bit surprised how long of a leash G-man had, but again ELC player.

Colborne, that defender that had a big shot, etc.. There has been a few instances when Bednar has just went completely in a different direction. I'm not saying all the time, or even a majority of the time. That is why all of this talk about where Bura will be in the lineup holds no water for me. If it was real games I'd give it a period of hockey before Bednar pulls the plug, but through camp he may get a bit more of a leash. Bura also won't be able to flash his talent, and will have to stay consistent throughout camp.

I don't have that worry with Donskoi because of a more consistent effort level and defensive ability. Big, soft, and inconsistent is like the perfect mix to get yourself stuck in the dog house and forgotten about with Bedsy though.

If there is one thing Bednar does do that you don't see often is give younger players legit chances. Greer is sort of an outlier, but the penalties are sort of the obvious culprit there. I haven't agreed with Bednar's handling of Z at times, but over the long term it has been fine in the end. Obviously that has been something you've brought up multiple times.

 

[cgf]

I’ll take my best stab at this. More what I think will happen than my hopes and dreams.

So if EJ is healthy to start the season I think that puts Graves in Loveland, if he’s iffy then they’ll keep Graves. Barb is ticketed for 7th D regardless. I think they want to give Rosen a shot but he’s waiver exempt while Graves is not. Unless Rosen really has a poor camp and preseason I think he gets the spot anyway. I don’t think Byram is going to figure in unless he’s dominating or there’s another injury.

So that makes the Eagles D:

MacDonald-Alt
Renouf-Meloche
Graves-Timmins

I guess Lindholm is hoping for either EJ or Timmins to not be healthy because otherwise I don’t see where he fits in or what the plan for him is.

It’s tough to sort the forwards until we see how they envision the role for the vets. Henry will get an early chance, the vibe from his short stint in the spring indicated that. They’ll play Saigeon at some point too, someone is always injured.

Greer-Tynan-Megna
Kaut-Bowers-Condra
Henry-Dries-Joly
Lewis-Shvyrev-O’Connor

Don't really disagree with the blueline...though I suspect it's Graves he gets the first stab at the third pairing PMD gig in the NHL, and Rosen who's sent down. I do think AJ ends up eating nachos with Cam at the Pepsi center, but I was spazzing on Joly...but ultimately I don't feel like getting real PT will be an insurmountable challenge for those kids, if they earn it. Shvy or Bowers will already be looking at the 2C, while Dries can easily be slid over to the wing to open the 3C up for the other, if they earn it; Kaut I figured for the top line with Tynan in place of Greer; and I still expect Mel to beat Alt for the top pairing gig unless Timmins beats him to it.

Anyway, how different is that from what you'd want their lineup to be for ideal development? And how much harder is it going to be for our kids to earn their minutes in this set up than in what you'd want to see? I don't feel like we're really putting too many roadblocks in their way if they warrant more PT and we're (hopefully) giving them enough support so the team doesn't get hammered too badly during any growing pains.

 

[tigervixxxen]

It’s possible Greer will be gone but more likely either via trade or waiver claim. They just don’t like extras sitting around, one forward and one D at most and if someone gets hurt they go without an extra for as long as they can.

If they don’t add anyone else to clog things up then yes the lineup should have a fair number of prospects on it, we’ll see how high up in the lineup they get. I wouldn’t bother with Dries at all, I’d rather have Saigeon take his minutes. I probably would have taken one of Condra/Megna than both. I would have cut out one of the vet Ds, lost Lindholm’s number and made space to give Kevin Davis a shot. 15 points in 25 games is up there with top D prospects AHL production, I’d try to see if anything is there rather than play 4-5 vets.

 

[cgf]

It’s possible Greer will be gone but more likely either via trade or waiver claim. They just don’t like extras sitting around, one forward and one D at most and if someone gets hurt they go without an extra for as long as they can.

If they don’t add anyone else to clog things up then yes the lineup should have a fair number of prospects on it, we’ll see how high up in the lineup they get. I wouldn’t bother with Dries at all, I’d rather have Saigeon take his minutes. I probably would have taken one of Condra/Megna than both. I would have cut out one of the vet Ds, lost Lindholm’s number and made space to give Kevin Davis a shot. 15 points in 25 games is up there with top D prospects AHL production, I’d try to see if anything is there rather than play 4-5 vets.

Fair enough. I think the blue line would start to run into a little too much inexperience, given that we're already trying to devote minutes to Timmins & Meloche; so I don't mind not having a spot for Davis out of the gates. If callups & injuries didn't eat through depth so fast, I might agree with Lindholm being superfluous, but since they're not, I'm fine with bringing him back...as long as they're done adding vets to the blueline...

That depth-suck is why I wouldn't be so worried even if AJ is in Loveland to start the year. Kaut, Bowers, Shvy & Lewis will have plenty of opportunities to win top 9 gigs...hopefully alongside some capable linemates this go around...and Saigeon may not get a significant role off the bat, but I really don't think that the bodies in his way would be all that hard for him to climb over if he proves worth a bigger role; even if all of the other kids are also successfully occupying some of those spots.

Now if they add another vet blueliner, send AJ down & sign another AHL scoring liner or two...then I'd be right there with you. But if they leave the blueline as is and add just one more forward (be it AJG or another acquisition), I think we're in a good spot to develop our kids while also letting them be part of a competitive team...assuming we find a capable #3 goalie, so that the Iggles aren't stuck banking on Werner to do what Frank did for them...

 

[Bill Peckerskull]

This is interesting...

 

[AvsRobin]

This is interesting...

Must be for the ECHL. Dude has been trash for years in the AHL. Selected 34 overall in that 2014 draft.