2017 Summer Transfer Rumors and Discussion

[MJG]

At this point, any English core isn't going to be very good, unless you have the couple elite level players. Unless Tottenham is going to sell Alli or Kane, then there really isn't much point in building an English core. The others are too expensive and overrated.

Most definitely. I was being an ass. I'm a Spurs fan.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Most definitely. I was being an ass. I'm a Spurs fan.

Ha, fair enough then.

 

[Evilo]

Pogba, Mata, Ibra, Martial, Shaw, Mkhitaryan, Bailly, etc.

They aren't Madrid level, but that is on par with what Bayern brings in. Man U still has plenty of power and is still the most prestigious of the English clubs, along with having the most money.

Pogba was a Real target in fact.

 

[Power Man]

We dodged a bullet

 

[bleedblue1223]

Pogba was a Real target in fact.

Right, but I was saying, they aren't Real level of routinely getting who they want, when they want. Man U will get those guys, but not like Real. Real gets Ronaldo, Bale, James, Kroos, Modric, etc. routinely.

Real and Barcelona are the only clubs that routinely can get who they want, when they want. Bayern and Man U are just a slight notch below.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

At this point, any English core isn't going to be very good, unless you have the couple elite level players. Unless Tottenham is going to sell Alli or Kane, then there really isn't much point in building an English core. The others are too expensive and overrated.

This. Having an English core is good enough. Spurs have an English core with Kane, Dele, Walker, Rose, Dier. And all their best up and coming players, Winks, Carter-Vickers, Edwards, Onomah, Walker-Peters are English born. Arsenal doesn't have the squad for an English core though.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Pogba, Mata, Ibra, Martial, Shaw, Mkhitaryan, Bailly, etc.

They aren't Madrid level, but that is on par with what Bayern brings in. Man U still has plenty of power and is still the most prestigious of the English clubs, along with having the most money.

Only if you don't account for the fact that in the time frame in which United bought those players (all but Mata were acquired in the past two summers), Bayern already had a stacked CL-winning roster and thus didn't need to bring in a lot of new talent, and even then, not really. United would have moved mountains to buy a player like Hummels, and he fell into Bayern's lap almost by accident.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Only if you don't account for the fact that in the time frame in which United bought those players (all but Mata were acquired in the past two summers), Bayern already had a stacked CL-winning roster and thus didn't need to bring in a lot of new talent, and even then, not really. United would have moved mountains to buy a player like Hummels, and he fell into Bayern's lap almost by accident.

Who cares about the time frame, that really doesn't matter, United has always been able to bring in talent, this is not a new thing with them.

Bayern hasn't really gone after and attained world talent like Real has, they pretty much just soak up the German market of most of the German stars or other international players playing in Germany, primarily coming from Dortmund.

They picked up guys like Alonso and Vidal, but those aren't really deals that match what Real does. They are not like Real in that way, but I think that's a good thing. While they can go out and get players, they also put a high value on developing talent instead of just buying star power.

 

[Evilo]

Right, but I was saying, they aren't Real level of routinely getting who they want, when they want. Man U will get those guys, but not like Real. Real gets Ronaldo, Bale, James, Kroos, Modric, etc. routinely.

Real and Barcelona are the only clubs that routinely can get who they want, when they want. Bayern and Man U are just a slight notch below.

Sure. Just wanted to point out that from time to time, United is capable (thanks to shady agents really) to sign a major target that any team in the world would like to get.
But I agree with your point.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Who cares about the time frame, that really doesn't matter, United has always been able to bring in talent, this is not a new thing with them.

Bayern hasn't really gone after and attained world talent like Real has, they pretty much just soak up the German market of most of the German stars or other international players playing in Germany, primarily coming from Dortmund.

They picked up guys like Alonso and Vidal, but those aren't really deals that match what Real does. They are not like Real in that way, but I think that's a good thing. While they can go out and get players, they also put a high value on developing talent instead of just buying star power.

The thing is, the German market is actually quite good, so that's an ok thing to do. You know United tried to acquire all those Dortmund stars as well? Start around the time when they brought in Robben and Ribery, and they have a handful of acquisitions that tower over anything United has done.

Of course they don't try to do Real's thing and go out and acquire the latest toy no matter the price, and of course United in some ways does try to do that. Doesn't make United more desirable than Bayern.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Sure. Just wanted to point out that from time to time, United is capable (thanks to shady agents really) to sign a major target that any team in the world would like to get.
But I agree with your point.

I hate United as much as anyone else, but you can't deny their prestige or money that they have. They may have had a rough transition from SAF, but they still have incredible force to get who they want. They may make some dumb decisions, but it's sooner rather than later that they become one of the top performers again.

 

[VEGASKING]

Neymar moving to United for massive 415k per week wages! Until you realize he makes 500k per week now.

 

[bleedblue1223]

The thing is, the German market is actually quite good, so that's an ok thing to do. You know United tried to acquire all those Dortmund stars as well? Start around the time when they brought in Robben and Ribery, and they have a handful of acquisitions that tower over anything United has done.

Of course they don't try to do Real's thing and go out and acquire the latest toy no matter the price, and of course United in some ways does try to do that. Doesn't make United more desirable than Bayern.

I agree, it's a very effective strategy for Bayern, but that doesn't make them on the level of Real. You could argue they could be, but I don't think that's an argument you'd win. Real is on a level of its own IMO when going after talent. They are the one club that most players dream about.

Sure United and other clubs were interested in the German based players that Bayern got, but it's inevitable that all those player end up at Bayern. It has more to do with staying in Germany and competing for everything than a knock on Man U though. If England had a golden generation, all the English clubs would have an advantage over Bayern for them, but England just kind of sucks at producing talent at the moment.

I'm not saying Man U is more attractive to targets, what I'm saying is Man U goes after targets, and they still get big targets. Edo implied that they don't get targets since SAF left, but they clearly do. They still have a little work to do to get back to that level, but they still get top targets. They are not well below Bayern in that regard. Bayern just goes after the top targets they know they'll inevitably get.

 

[cgf]

Who cares about the time frame, that really doesn't matter, United has always been able to bring in talent, this is not a new thing with them.

Bayern hasn't really gone after and attained world talent like Real has, they pretty much just soak up the German market of most of the German stars or other international players playing in Germany, primarily coming from Dortmund.

They picked up guys like Alonso and Vidal, but those aren't really deals that match what Real does. They are not like Real in that way, but I think that's a good thing. While they can go out and get players, they also put a high value on developing talent instead of just buying star power.

Thiago, Vidal, Martinez, Coman, Costa & Sanches were all big targets from outside of Germany...Costa may not have had huge hype before moving to Bayern, but the others did. And Lewandowski may have come to them from the BuLi, but they were competing with those mega giants for his services. Bayern doesn't go out buying Galactico's every summer, but I don't think we have any evidence that their pull is any less than Barca/Real.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Thiago, Vidal, Martinez, Coman, Costa & Sanches were all big gets from outside of Germany. And Lewandowski may have come to them from the BuLi, but they were competing with those mega giants for his services. Bayern doesn't go out buying Galactico's every summer, but I don't think we have any evidence that their pull is any less than Barca/Real.

And all of those are more comparable to what Man U has recently brought in than what Real brings in. Those are galactico level signings like Ronaldo, Bale, James, etc.

Bayern is very attractive, and they are very smart, but on the market, they are not Real, and they should not be put on the same level as Real in that sense. That's the whole point.

I'd rather do what Bayern does because I think it's a more sustainable and effective strategy, but that doesn't mean we should say they are equal to Real on the transfer market in the sense of getting targets.

We also don't have the evidence that their pull is as much as Barca/Real. Not competing for galactico's kind of supports them not having that pull.

 

[Deficient Mode]

I agree, it's a very effective strategy for Bayern, but that doesn't make them on the level of Real. You could argue they could be, but I don't think that's an argument you'd win. Real is on a level of its own IMO when going after talent. They are the one club that most players dream about.

Sure United and other clubs were interested in the German based players that Bayern got, but it's inevitable that all those player end up at Bayern. It has more to do with staying in Germany and competing for everything than a knock on Man U though. If England had a golden generation, all the English clubs would have an advantage over Bayern for them, but England just kind of sucks at producing talent at the moment.

I'm not saying Man U is more attractive to targets, what I'm saying is Man U goes after targets, and they still get big targets. Edo implied that they don't get targets since SAF left, but they clearly do. They still have a little work to do to get back to that level, but they still get top targets. They are not well below Bayern in that regard. Bayern just goes after the top targets they know they'll inevitably get.

Again, no one is saying Bayern are on Real's level with their signings. The thing is, United are nowhere close to that level, despite spending more money, because the true galactico players can find a club that will pay them a fortune AND offer a chance of winning the CL.

It's hard to generalize when different factors motivate different players. United undoubtedly have more money than Bayern, and spend a bigger chunk of it on transfers as well. A lot of that is spent on players whose old clubs want to dispense with them as well, like Mata and di Maria.

I also don't know why you're treating the German market as inevitably culminating in Bayern, but you celebrate United for signing players from other English clubs. What's the difference between United signing Mata and Bayern signing Lewandowski? What's the difference between Shaw signing for United and Götze signing for Bayern?

 

[bleedblue1223]

Again, no one is saying Bayern are on Real's level with their signings. The thing is, United are nowhere close to that level, despite spending more money, because the true galactico players can find a club that will pay them a fortune AND offer a chance of winning the CL.

It's hard to generalize when different factors motivate different players. United undoubtedly have more money than Bayern, and spend a bigger chunk of it on transfers as well. A lot of that is spent on players whose old clubs want to dispense with them as well, like Mata and di Maria.

I also don't know why you're treating the German market as inevitably culminating in Bayern, but you celebrate United for signing players from other English clubs. What's the difference between United signing Mata and Bayern signing Lewandowski? What's the difference between Shaw signing for United and Götze signing for Bayern?

Celebrate? Dear god, don't put words in my mouth, I'm not celebrating and showcasing anything that United does. Yes, but talent from within their league is very similar to what Bayern does. Bayern does have the advantage that they are the only premier level club in their league though. If Man U had that advantage, they would've ended up with Kante and other internal stars. I'm not celebrating Man U for what they do or bashing Bayern for that.

The thing where Man U is way behind those clubs is actually integrating the talent they bring into to form a cohesive and successful unit. We are currently talking about bring in talent, and Man U can do that, and they've been doing that, and they'll continue to do it. The problem is making them into a successful 11-man unit. That's what they suck at post-SAF. During SAF days, they were much more like the current Bayern of just being very efficient and effective on the market, and also developing talent.

On the global scale as far as pull and bringing in targets, Real and Barca are by themselves. They are really the only ones with enough pull to scare any other club. That doesn't mean they are the most efficient or effective clubs on the market though.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Celebrate? Dear god, don't put words in my mouth, I'm not celebrating and showcasing anything that United does. Yes, but talent from within their league is very similar to what Bayern does. Bayern does have the advantage that they are the only premier level club in their league though. If Man U had that advantage, they would've ended up with Kante and other internal stars. I'm not celebrating Man U for what they do or bashing Bayern for that.

The thing where Man U is way behind those clubs is actually integrating the talent they bring into to form a cohesive and successful unit. We are currently talking about bring in talent, and Man U can do that, and they've been doing that, and they'll continue to do it. The problem is making them into a successful 11-man unit. That's what they suck at post-SAF. During SAF days, they were much more like the current Bayern of just being very efficient and effective on the market, and also developing talent.

On the global scale as far as pull and bringing in targets, Real and Barca are by themselves. They are really the only ones with enough pull to scare any other club. That doesn't mean they are the most efficient or effective clubs on the market though.

You included Shaw and Mata on your original list of players that United "bring in." That's all I meant.

Bayern undoubtedly are profiting the most from the boom in German talent development, and they weren't in nearly the same position before. Unlike Barca and Madrid, "pull" and "bringing in talent" are two different poles for Bayern however. Bayern choose not to make galactico signings because their team is already very good, so they can afford to be passive and wait until players want to come to them, and the selling clubs are in a weak position (like Hummels). That's why you shouldn't treat the lack of galactico signings as a sign of insufficient "pull" in their case. I'd say the foreign transfers where they unequivocally wanted a player and were willing to dish out a ton of money to get him immediately - Sanches, Martinez, Costa - are generally far weaker than the transfers they could make due to their opportunism and pull.

 

[bleedblue1223]

You included Shaw and Mata on your original list of players that United "bring in." That's all I meant.

Bayern undoubtedly are profiting the most from the boom in German talent development, and they weren't in nearly the same position before. Unlike Barca and Madrid, "pull" and "bringing in talent" are two different poles for Bayern however. Bayern choose not to make galactico signings because their team is already very good, so they can afford to be passive and wait until players want to come to them, and the selling clubs are in a weak position (like Hummels). That's why you shouldn't treat the lack of galactico signings as a sign of insufficient "pull" in their case. I'd say the foreign transfers where they unequivocally wanted a player and were willing to dish out a ton of money to get him immediately - Sanches, Martinez, Costa - are generally far weaker than the transfers they could make due to their opportunism and pull.

You can't make that conclusion. Even when Real and Barca are at the top, they are still looking for galactico level signings. Did Barca need to go for Suarez? Did Real need to go for Bale? Does Real need to pursue Hazard? Barca and Real are always looking for galactico level stars, even if it's just for incremental gains.

You can't just put them on Real's or Barca's level. Most of their signings are German based or when they are younger and less expensive. They don't pull galacticos like Real and Barca and we have no proof that they could or couldn't. That's why they aren't on that level. That's not an insult to them, they just choose not to participate in that market, and because of that, they aren't on the level of Real or Barca.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. It's very well possible that Bayern could be on that level, but they aren't, and we can't just assume that they would be.

 

[Deficient Mode]

You can't make that conclusion. Even when Real and Barca are at the top, they are still looking for galactico level signings. Did Barca need to go for Suarez? Did Real need to go for Bale? Does Real need to pursue Hazard? Barca and Real are always looking for galactico level stars, even if it's just for incremental gains.

You can't just put them on Real's or Barca's level. Most of their signings are German based or when they are younger and less expensive. They don't pull galacticos like Real and Barca and we have no proof that they could or couldn't. That's why they aren't on that level. That's not an insult to them, they just choose not to participate in that market, and because of that, they aren't on the level of Real or Barca.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. It's very well possible that Bayern could be on that level, but they aren't, and we can't just assume that they would be.

Once again: no one is saying they are on Real or Barca's level. Nowhere did I claim that. I merely said they have a more passive approach to buying established stars than Real. It so happens that incremental gains can also be made by buying young cheap German talent. Who knew.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Well I mean United is a good destination as any other. Just under Munich/Madrid.

How many targets have United landed since SAF left?

United is well below Munich-Madrid.

Once again: no one is saying they are on Real or Barca's level. Nowhere did I claim that. I merely said they have a more passive approach to buying established stars than Real. It so happens that incremental gains can also be made by buying young cheap German talent. Who knew.

2 people equating Bayern with Real. I don't even know what you are arguing at this point. I've already made the argument that Bayern is more effective in the market than Real.

 

[cgf]

And all of those are more comparable to what Man U has recently brought in than what Real brings in. Those are galactico level signings like Ronaldo, Bale, James, etc.

Bayern is very attractive, and they are very smart, but on the market, they are not Real, and they should not be put on the same level as Real in that sense. That's the whole point.

I'd rather do what Bayern does because I think it's a more sustainable and effective strategy, but that doesn't mean we should say they are equal to Real on the transfer market in the sense of getting targets.

We also don't have the evidence that their pull is as much as Barca/Real. Not competing for galactico's kind of supports them not having that pull.

Real goes for Galactico's all of the time, and Bayern doesn't. When Bayern have gone after Lewandowski, Vidal, Hummels; they've gotten them. Neymar is the guy you can say that they lost out on to Barca/Real, but the board was pushing for Gotze instead & they took Thiago from Barca in that very same summer. That is an entirely different level than what United have been able to do. Pogba is the one transfer of a similar stature and that took an idiotic amount of money to make happen.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Real goes for Galactico's all of the time, and Bayern doesn't. When Bayern have gone after Lewandowski, Vidal, Hummels; they've gotten them. Neymar is the guy you can say that they lost out on to Barca/Real, but the board was pushing for Gotze instead & they took Thiago from Barca in that very same summer. That is an entirely different level than what United have been able to do. Pogba is the one transfer of a similar stature and that took an idiotic amount of money to make happen.

It was going to take idiotic money for any team to get Pogba. It's not like United payed 90mil Naingolan or something. The biggest issue they had was when Moyes was targeting players like Fabregas and Ronaldo, instead of doing what LVG did and get rid of all the deadweight.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Real goes for Galactico's all of the time, and Bayern doesn't. When Bayern have gone after Lewandowski, Vidal, Hummels; they've gotten them. Neymar is the guy you can say that they lost out on to Barca/Real, but the board was pushing for Gotze instead & they took Thiago from Barca in that very same summer. That is an entirely different level than what United have been able to do. Pogba is the one transfer of a similar stature and that took an idiotic amount of money to make happen.

So, no evidence that Bayern is close to Real despite multiple people trying to make that equivalency.

Man U has been able to bring in multiple top talents, they just suck at incorporating them into the team, and Moyes also didn't know how to manage a top club. They have still been able to bring in Pogba, Ibra, Di Maria, Mata, Mkhitaryan, etc. Bringing in talent is not the issue for Man U. They have the money and prestige.

 

[cgf]

2 people equating Bayern with Real. I don't even know what you are arguing at this point. I've already made the argument that Bayern is more effective in the market than Real.

1 of those is Edo, who doesn't count.

Pogba is the one huge signing United have pulled off to compare to Bayern. Getting the unwanted Mata & di Maria puts them closer to Arsenal than to Bayern, signing old man Ibra before he hits the MLS puts them more on par with China than Bayern, and Miki is closer to the Bayern range of pull, so 1 & a half.