2017-18 Roster Talk: Part Ten

[Striiker]

Thank you @Striiker for saving me time.

I’m all for criticizing people when criticism is deserved, like for keeping Hakstol or Lappy. But trying to twist neutral or positive things into negatives for the sake of complaints? Nah.

 

[Striiker]

How in the eff are some of those additions positive ?

Oduya?
Medvedev?
Lyubimov?
Gordon?

At best they are lateral no harm signings but I don't consider any of those to be positive.

Worth a try, not necessarily a great positive result. Just not a negative.

Signing FAs from another league is definitely something worth taking a chance on and doing again in the future.

Oduya was just an extra body we got for free. No big deal. What did he play, like 1 game?

Gordon never got to play here, but the mentality in signing him was good, find a vet who can PK and take defensive face offs so Giroux didn’t have to. Never got to play here, so can’t call that a negative either. Another neutral result.

 

[Prongo]

Like deals like this?

Bennett for #19
ROR for Konecny+Frost+#19
Hartman for Sanheim
Rubstov or Morin for Grabner
Sanheim +1st in 2018 for Domi

Let’s be honest though. These are what fans proposed. Not what the actual trade value of those players were. I think we all know what fans want and what players get is completely different.

 

[Tripod]

@Ruck Over, you seemed to have understood what Hextall was doing when you posted this last summer:


(On Schenn trade)
"late to the party, stopped watching the draft at pick 24 cause I thought the action was over.

This trade is like the Hartnell - Umberger trade, with slightly better talent. Use some cap space and get the marginally worse player now, and have the flexibility to do what you envision wanting to do later on.

Long view in the room, playing chess instead of checkers (what some other folks have said).

 

[JojoTheWhale]

First, it's not a bad product, ask Carolina fans about a bad product! Flyers fans have unrealistic expectations, because they've had exactly one stretch in 30+ years where they missed the playoffs for an extended period (1989-90 to 1993-94) - how many fans here even remember those years?

The quality of the product isn’t defined by just Wins and Losses for everyone. As a night out or even a night in, I get precious little entertainment from them anymore. They largely favor an overly conservative style on the ice I find mind-numbing. There are huge swaths of time in games where they default to passivity by design. The commentary is the worst it’s been in my lifetime. The decisions the coaching staff makes actively mutes the excitement you naturally build for the potential stars coming up through the ranks. I’ll defend the recent drafting to the ends of the earth because it’s been phenomenal, but the handling of those kids once they turn pro has largely been abominable. It’s tough for me to get beyond that.

I started going to games in 85-86 as a small kid, so yes, I do remember those lean years. I would cut them off a year earlier, as Lindros’ rookie season was enough for that team to be fun, but that doesn’t change your point. Until recently, the only time I went a full season without getting to a game was the year I spent overseas. Other than attending the Lindros ceremony on a free ticket (and leaving before the game started), I attended zero this year. I stopped watching the Pittsburgh series after Game 4. I don’t even plan to watch on tv next year without changes. I can’t believe I’m saying it, but it’s true. I had tons of fun watching good, aggressive hockey from other teams, so it’s not anything against hockey as a sport. It’s this team putting out a subpar product.

 

[Tripod]

Let’s be honest though. These are what fans proposed. Not what the actual trade value of those players were. I think we all know what fans want and what players get is completely different.

It depends how you look at it. You could be on the other side of the trade wanting that too, and that is the proposed price.

Example: JVR for Schenn. When proposed, Flyers fans said no way, JVR is worth more. Leafs fans said it was fair.

Then the deal happens, Leafs fans say "see we were right". Flyers fans say "nope, bad deal Philly"

But in the end, who was right? Leaf fans for calling the trad right or Flyers fans for saying it wasn't fair. Both are right, depending on how you look at it. And both are also wrong when looking at it a different way.

 

[Tripod]

For me, it just comes down to Hextalls plan. He HAS ONE. It just does not suit the timeline of what lots on here want, and certainly are not used to.

Almost every deal Hextall has made was with the future as the goal. Not now. And yes, it sucks for Giroux and Jake. But reality is Hextall is building the Flyers to be a contender on the backs of the future core, not those 2. And the Schenn deal was the BIGGEST sign of this....apologies to those who voted saying Schenn was a core player....lol.

He has tried lots of little moves that have failed, but also did little damage...Gordon, Medvedev, etc... His CLEAR vision was to try and add free pieces for the now, while moving other pieces around to clear cap space while adding future assets.

Personally, I WANT him to be more aggressive this summer and alter the strategy from only future, to future AND now. But in saying thT, Simmonds should be moved as the last move for the future. We have the pipeline full. And with 2 1sts, it should be set nicely. Hopefully he adds real NHL talent instead of just filler. I am willing to wait and see what he actually does this summer before freaking out.

Side note, Lappy should have been fired by now. No excuse at all to still have him employed.

 

[Prongo]

It depends how you look at it. You could be on the other side of the trade wanting that too, and that is the proposed price.

Example: JVR for Schenn. When proposed, Flyers fans said no way, JVR is worth more. Leafs fans said it was fair.

Then the deal happens, Leafs fans say "see we were right". Flyers fans say "nope, bad deal Philly"

But in the end, who was right? Leaf fans for calling the trad right or Flyers fans for saying it wasn't fair. Both are right, depending on how you look at it. And both are also wrong when looking at it a different way.

Well that trade was rumored about being discussed. The ones you listed are actually fans just making proposals. I take what fans want with a grain of salt especially when they aren’t comparing deals with former/similar situations.

And no matter how you look at JVR or Schenn, it was a terrible deal. For us. There’s no question there

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Bad deals still happen every year. GM’s still overvalue/undervalue players based on things that don’t align with reality all the time.

 

[Tripod]

Different topic:

Would you trade #14 for JT Miller? #19?

RFA. Just turned 25 in March. 58 and 56 points the last 2 years. And to save Deadhead some time, 40 ES points this year, 49 the year before.

Would slot in nicely to our LW while Ratcliffe can spend his few years developing.

Also, good on FO so like G, could take FO on his strong side then slide to wing. Also gives us another C option when an injury occurs. Hell, he could play C for us next year then slide to C assuming Frost is ready the following year. He gives us option.

 

[Ruck Over]

MDZ and Neuvirth were more useful to the team than Bellemare, and I'm a Bellemare fan. Knocking Hextall for taking chances on low cost forwards like Gagner and Weal who didn't score as much as we would have liked is silly. Especially when he acquired those guys by dumping Pronger, Grossmann, Vinny and LSchenn as he was cleaning up the terrible cap situation he inherited.

Almost every guy on that list came with picks attached or was on a cheap/short term deal. Weise is the only real bad signing.

Umberger + 2015 4th for Hartnell
Medvedev - 1 year at $4m
Gagner + 2016 4th for Grossmann + Pronger
Lehtera + 2017 1st and 2018 1st for BSchenn
Filppula + 2017 4th + 2017 7th for Streit
Gordon - 1 year at $950K
Lyubimov - 1 year at $925K
Bellemare - 1 year at $600K, 2 years at $712,500, 2 years at $1.45m
Weal + 2016 3rd for Vinny + LSchenn - 1 year at $650K, 2 years at $1.75m
Weise - 4 years at $2.35m
MDZ - 1 year at $1.3m, 2 years at $3.875m
Neuvirth - 2 years at $1.625m, 2 years at $2.5m
Elliott - 2 years at $2.75m
Mrazek for 2018 3rd
White 1 year at $575K, 1 year at $800K
Gudas +2015 1st + 2015 3rd for Coburn - 4 years at $3.35m
Oduya was on waivers

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I'm not interested in arguing the value of MDZ or Neuvirth, although there is a caveat that Neuvy could still be a more impactful player than I've given him credit to date, which is close to nil. But you're really talking past me instead of to the point being made. I'm not knocking any of the extra things that came along with some of the player acquisitions, nor am I knocking any individual players for things they haven't done (Gagner/Weal). I've identified 2 players (Gudas & PEB) that have been positive, and abstained on another (Elliott). You mentioned two others (MDZ & Neuvy), which would bring the number to 4(5). These are players Hextall brought to the team, and it's amounted to not much. Because the majority of these players either have, or will not likely have, a future with this team beyond Gudas or Elliott into the 2019-20 season, I've said these additions have been nothing impactful to the on-ice product. Nothing in your post contradicts that assertion (players typically/majorly brought in by Hextall have not been impactful). Hextall also had not utilized the found cap space by riding the roster of undesirable players/contracts in a meaningful way. He replaced bad contracts and/or under performing players with other bad contracts and/or under performing players.

I get the desire to rally to Hextall, but the points you've argued have already been made and generally agreed to in some form or another.

 

[Lindberg]

Worth a try, not necessarily a great positive result. Just not a negative.

Signing FAs from another league is definitely something worth taking a chance on and doing again in the future.

Oduya was just an extra body we got for free. No big deal. What did he play, like 1 game?

Gordon never got to play here, but the mentality in signing him was good, find a vet who can PK and take defensive face offs so Giroux didn’t have to. Never got to play here, so can’t call that a negative either. Another neutral result.

I'd call all of them that I listed as neutral but you listed them as a positive. If you want to give others grief for being too negative on Hextall the least you can do is be fair and impartial about it. While the four I listed ended up being a neutral result it does show a bit of err in talent judging.

Edit : I like to think I've been fair to Hextall. I like his desire to build for future success, cap management, amateur scouting but he also deserves negative marks (loyalty, coaching staff, and pro scouting).

 

[Ruck Over]

@Ruck Over, you seemed to have understood what Hextall was doing when you posted this last summer:


(On Schenn trade)
"late to the party, stopped watching the draft at pick 24 cause I thought the action was over.

This trade is like the Hartnell - Umberger trade, with slightly better talent. Use some cap space and get the marginally worse player now, and have the flexibility to do what you envision wanting to do later on.

Long view in the room, playing chess instead of checkers (what some other folks have said).

And my opinion changed as the season unfolded and the Flyers showed a lot more promise with the players already on the team. That's also discounting the continued bad coaching that most fans (such as yourself?) have acknowledged. At that point in time, still stoked about landing Patrick and expecting Lindbolm to maybe make the roster, TK to advance, Morin definitely and Sanheim maybe being on the roster. I did not expect Filp to just go to pot, nor did I expect Lehtera to play 62 games, Manning to play 65.

So, things change, and people change their opinions. There's more information to asses at the end of this season than there was when the season began.

But by all means, search through some more of my old posts, I'm confidant about having a reasoned response to share about past musings.

 

[Rebels57]

The quality of the product isn’t defined by just Wins and Losses for everyone. As a night out or even a night in, I get precious little entertainment from them anymore. They largely favor an overly conservative style on the ice I find mind-numbing. There are huge swaths of time in games where they default to passivity by design. The commentary is the worst it’s been in my lifetime. The decisions the coaching staff makes actively mutes the excitement you naturally build for the potential stars coming up through the ranks. I’ll defend the recent drafting to the ends of the earth because it’s been phenomenal, but the handling of those kids once they turn pro has largely been abominable. It’s tough for me to get beyond that.

I started going to games in 85-86 as a small kid, so yes, I do remember those lean years. I would cut them off a year earlier, as Lindros’ rookie season was enough for that team to be fun, but that doesn’t change your point. Until recently, the only time I went a full season without getting to a game was the year I spent overseas. Other than attending the Lindros ceremony on a free ticket (and leaving before the game started), I attended zero this year. I stopped watching the Pittsburgh series after Game 4. I don’t even plan to watch on tv next year without changes. I can’t believe I’m saying it, but it’s true. I had tons of fun watching good, aggressive hockey from other teams, so it’s not anything against hockey as a sport. It’s this team putting out a subpar product.

This should be stickied. Well said. This is how I feel. Really not an enjoyable franchise to follow right now.

 

[Ruck Over]

It depends how you look at it. You could be on the other side of the trade wanting that too, and that is the proposed price.

Example: JVR for Schenn. When proposed, Flyers fans said no way, JVR is worth more. Leafs fans said it was fair.

Then the deal happens, Leafs fans say "see we were right". Flyers fans say "nope, bad deal Philly"

But in the end, who was right? Leaf fans for calling the trad right or Flyers fans for saying it wasn't fair. Both are right, depending on how you look at it. And both are also wrong when looking at it a different way.

How were the Leafs fan correct in that the trade was fair? Your post I generally find confusing because it's a lot of words for not much. Is it correctly distilled to, "Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion man."

 

[Rebels57]

That tweet I shared sparked even more debate than I expected. Good stuff.

 

[The Madrigal]

Philadelphia Flyers Draft History at hockeydb.com

Go ahead and look from 2017 down to 2014. You’ll see quite a few players added that have already significantly helped the team and many poor who likely will in the future. More than any realtistic signing.

Nobody is or has been disputing that Hextall and the scouts have done a really good of drafting players. The problem is with free agency moves and to a lesser degree trades, where he has been below average AT BEST. A more accurate description would probably be bad. This ties back into the point that so many fail or refuse to grasp, you can't build a cup contender on the draft alone. You need to be able to sign the right free agents and make good trades here and there. In the cap era, it is extremely helpful to hit on some of those cheaper FA options whether they be veterans who end up carving out a role on the team or hit it big on a young guy who flew under the radar. Hextall has done the opposite of that with people like Medvedev, Lyubimov, Gordon, Weise, Gagner, Neuvirth, Elliott, etc etc.

 

[The Madrigal]

That tweet I shared sparked even more debate than I expected. Good stuff.

It's a big fat dose of reality that some people really need to pay attention to.

 

[Lindberg]

How were the Leafs fan correct in that the trade was fair? Your post I generally find confusing because it's a lot of words for not much. Is it correctly distilled to, "Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion man."

I think Tripod is implying that posters sometimes have a better gauge of what a player is really worth vice a GM and how sometimes posters don't on what GMs think are fair value. I do think it demonstrates that GMs shouldn't be held in such high regard "they know what they're doing and you don't".

 

[Ruck Over]

For me, it just comes down to Hextalls plan. He HAS ONE. It just does not suit the timeline of what lots on here want, and certainly are not used to.

Almost every deal Hextall has made was with the future as the goal. Not now. And yes, it sucks for Giroux and Jake. But reality is Hextall is building the Flyers to be a contender on the backs of the future core, not those 2. And the Schenn deal was the BIGGEST sign of this....apologies to those who voted saying Schenn was a core player....lol.

He has tried lots of little moves that have failed, but also did little damage...Gordon, Medvedev, etc... His CLEAR vision was to try and add free pieces for the now, while moving other pieces around to clear cap space while adding future assets.

Personally, I WANT him to be more aggressive this summer and alter the strategy from only future, to future AND now. But in saying thT, Simmonds should be moved as the last move for the future. We have the pipeline full. And with 2 1sts, it should be set nicely. Hopefully he adds real NHL talent instead of just filler. I am willing to wait and see what he actually does this summer before freaking out.

Side note, Lappy should have been fired by now. No excuse at all to still have him employed.

I'm sure you, or anyone who cares to, can find another post(s) of mine where I state that's fine Hextall has a plan. And what he says has largely followed what he's done. And in addition to that, Hextall has said this wasn't a rebuild, the Flyers would remain competitive, this wouldn't take 5 years, and other etc. along similar lines. That's where all my ciriticism stems from. The proof is not in the pudding, and if Hextall were to be more open with his plan (like the Rags, the Canucks, Hinkie/Brett Brown Sixers) the expectations would change, and the criticism would change(disappear) as well.

If you note he had little failures (Gordon, Medvedev, etc), and there's a failure with the coaching staff (Lappy), I'd say Hextall is not infallible. If we both agree he isn't perfect, we're just arguing semantics about how imperfect he may or may not be.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Different topic:

Would you trade #14 for JT Miller? #19?

RFA. Just turned 25 in March. 58 and 56 points the last 2 years. And to save Deadhead some time, 40 ES points this year, 49 the year before.

Would slot in nicely to our LW while Ratcliffe can spend his few years developing.

Also, good on FO so like G, could take FO on his strong side then slide to wing. Also gives us another C option when an injury occurs. Hell, he could play C for us next year then slide to C assuming Frost is ready the following year. He gives us option.

I wouldn't, personally, but I would give him Nickelback tickets for free if someone had the bad taste to hand me some.

 

[Rebels57]

Different topic:

Would you trade #14 for JT Miller? #19?

RFA. Just turned 25 in March. 58 and 56 points the last 2 years. And to save Deadhead some time, 40 ES points this year, 49 the year before.

Would slot in nicely to our LW while Ratcliffe can spend his few years developing.

Also, good on FO so like G, could take FO on his strong side then slide to wing. Also gives us another C option when an injury occurs. Hell, he could play C for us next year then slide to C assuming Frost is ready the following year. He gives us option.

Miller wouldnt be my first choice. His production is good but hes also braindead, terrible defensively, and has vanished in the Playoffs multiple times. Would rather target a Hoffman or Skinner. If we did move on Miller id go with a 2nd + decent forward prospect (Laczsynski?) but wouldnt move a 1st for him.

 

[KrazyKat]

This should be stickied. Well said. This is how I feel. Really not an enjoyable franchise to follow right now.

Hell even Rinaldo, Bryzgalov, made the team interesting to watch. I deffinately agree the team had lost that entertainmenting feel!

But I feel when the prospects start to step in... things will shape up.


On the same note Giroux/Voracek/Couturier proved they are still upper echelon players. And now that our pipeline is full. I wouldn't be against moving a peice or two for some impact players to try and make a run.

First would be a decent Goalie.

Look at Vegas. They are strong and fast. But have solid Goaltending. If we got a guy for a year or two before Hart steps in I'd love it.

I'd also consider moving Sanheim. He is a high end prospect who most likely will pan out to be a great D man. But trading him for someone more proven right now. Wouldn't be a problem.

Lastly, I still think we are lacking a bottom 6 players that can make an impact. A guy like Reaves.


I think we can find some deals like that , we will be in good shape, not only next season. But down the road as well.

 

[Tripod]

And my opinion changed as the season unfolded and the Flyers showed a lot more promise with the players already on the team. That's also discounting the continued bad coaching that most fans (such as yourself?) have acknowledged. At that point in time, still stoked about landing Patrick and expecting Lindbolm to maybe make the roster, TK to advance, Morin definitely and Sanheim maybe being on the roster. I did not expect Filp to just go to pot, nor did I expect Lehtera to play 62 games, Manning to play 65.

So, things change, and people change their opinions. There's more information to asses at the end of this season than there was when the season began.

But by all means, search through some more of my old posts, I'm confidant about having a reasoned response to share about past musings.

The whole point was that you understood what Hextall is doing last summer....and nothing has changed. He stayed with that same vision all year. It's why he didn't waste a bunch of assets on rentals like Grabner, Kane, etc... He did on Mrazek only because we were on our 4th best goalie entering the season and everyone was out long term.

I have no issue if you say you want us now to add for TODAY. As do I. But supporting Hextall for the Schenn trade, then 1 year later criticize it because you think it was just a trade to do a trade, is a contradiction. You know WHY he did the trade. Nothing has changed.

 

[The Madrigal]

This should be stickied. Well said. This is how I feel. Really not an enjoyable franchise to follow right now.

The problem with this franchise right now is that there is nothing entertaining or exciting about the team nor is there anything to be overly optimistic about for the future. Even in the end of Holmgren's tenure he was still trying to make moves and improve the team so there was always a buzz about the team. I would trade winning for all of the buzz and splash moves in the world, but at least if you aren't going to win give me something on the ice or during the off season to get excited about. I have finally started to get apathetic as a Flyers fan which is the worst thing that can happen.