2017-18 Roster Talk: Part Ten

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Captain Dave Poulin

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Apr 30, 2015
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I'm just going to keep banging the table for Vorobyev to get the 3C job.

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deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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And what was the total cost of that list, other than Mrazek? They actually garnered some draft picks.
And what contracts extend into 2019-20 other than Weise (one season).

You get what you pay for, Ron paid nothing, and got, well, close to nothing.
 

Ruck Over

When the revolution comes, pants will do you no gd
Apr 19, 2016
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Philadelphia, Pa
Every offseason I hear about the process, hopefully it starts paying dividends soon.
The Process shouldn't be used with the Flyers, that's a Sixers thing. The Sixers (Hinkie) was very upfront about the expectations and planned actions to take when it came to how he was rebuilding the roster. As close as he was to the vest about the actual moves to be made (similar to Hextall), he was forthright in what those actions would look like. To say Hextall has said what he was going to do, and then perform in such a manner (not trade youth for immediate help, keep his draft picks, not deviate), he's essentially said things they won't do, and then did not do those things, which amounts to, he sat on his hands essentially (the Schenn trade being the real only needle-mover).

Saying I'm not going to do anything, and this is what I'm going to do, are literally night and day. If doing nothing is a process, then I stand corrected and the Flyers are doing their process admirably.

The Flyers process has already paid dividends, Provy, TK, Patrick. Unfortunately, three players, with varying usage comparable to their talents, aren't enough to drastically improve a team's fortunes.

I really just need the Flyers to show that they care about me, specifically me, I don't care about any of you because I am a jerk, and the smartest guy in the room (maybe). As was lamented on a BSH podcast, just show that you love me Flyers". Something that I can point to and say, "Look, the Flyers made a move that makes the team better today." I'm not forgetting about the lottery ping-pong gods. They have blessed us with 13 -> 2, a true miracle or statistical improbability. But that blessing is to the lottery ping-pong gods, I want something that I can point at Hextall and say, "Thank you GMRH, you have truly made the world a better place through your sheer cunning and tenacity."

If we're going to be punting seasons, there's better ways to do it.

The Flyers have put a bad product on the ice, and bad because expectations are high here. If they don't improve the team, they should improve some other facet of the in-game, on-TV experience. Give me some of that Vegas glitz, something that's fun. Philly =/= Vegas sure. I'm not sure what the character of Philly is that would translate well (respect the no Flyers mascot), but give me something, even if more kiss-cam, or organic fat-guy dancing in the nose bleeds.

What's the point of this rambling? No, seriously, what was the point, I forgot. The malaise, the blahs, le sigh.
 
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Ruck Over

When the revolution comes, pants will do you no gd
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Ill just leave this here.



Yeah, I remember alluding to a list like this recently while ranting. Give props where due concerning Gudas and Bellemare, marginal as they may be, still positive. Everyone else is/was a zero for on-ice performance. I'll give Elliott an incomplete, so that's 2/16 = 12.5% (range of (3/17-17.6%) or (2/17-11.7%)).
 
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deadhead

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First, it's not a bad product, ask Carolina fans about a bad product! Flyers fans have unrealistic expectations, because they've had exactly one stretch in 30+ years where they missed the playoffs for an extended period (1989-90 to 1993-94) - how many fans here even remember those years?

Second, Hextall has done a lot, he's garnered numerous extra draft picks, especially high draft picks, trading up for TK and Ratcliffe, trading Schenn to get Frost and now #14, picking up numerous middle round draft picks - but these moves take time to bear fruit. A team that was cap constrained and unable to resign its own players now has plenty of cap room and assets to make any move that will improve the team in the long-run.

The process has already produced Provorov, TK, Patrick, Lindblom, Sanhiem, with Myers, Frost, Ratcliffe, Allison, Hart et al on the way.

If you're holding out for the "big trade" or signing that will fire up the national media, well, that probably depends on what is offered, Hextall doesn't seem the type to make a deal just to make a deal.
 
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Ruck Over

When the revolution comes, pants will do you no gd
Apr 19, 2016
4,197
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Philadelphia, Pa
First, it's not a bad product, ask Carolina fans about a bad product! Flyers fans have unrealistic expectations, because they've had exactly one stretch in 30+ years where they missed the playoffs for an extended period (1989-90 to 1993-94) - how many fans here even remember those years?

Second, Hextall has done a lot, he's garnered numerous extra draft picks, especially high draft picks, trading up for TK and Ratcliffe, trading Schenn to get Frost and now #14, picking up numerous middle round draft picks - but these moves take time to bear fruit. A team that was cap constrained and unable to resign its own player now has plenty of cap room and assets to make any more that will improve the team in the long-run.

The process has already produced Provorov, TK, Patrick, Lindblom, Sanhiem, with Myers, Frost, Ratcliffe, Allison, Hart et al on the way.

If you're holding out for the "big trade" or signing that will fire up the national media, well, that probably depends on what is offered, Hextall doesn't seem the type to make a deal just to make a deal.
We disagree, me stating it is a bad product is an opinion, clearly stated as such now, if not inferred originally. One stating they are not a bad product, and proffering another team for comparison does nothing to assuage the original feeling of badness of the Flyers, as one could say, look at team X whom are better.
It was stated expectations are high here, higher than in most other NHL cities (one of the highest when compared strictly to US markets). Those high expectations, as previously stated, clearly color the good-bad descriptor of the team. The Flyers have not made a move similar to the Rangers or Canucks (or Sixers locally) to change/lower those expectations.

Already mentioned Provy, Patrick, and TK. While I personally have high hopes for many of the picks Hextall has made (and Morin), none of those other players have made any sort of tangible addition to the on-ice product. Projecting those future additions to the team now is presumptuous, a bridge to far personally. If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a merry Christmas.

Saying the team was limited in bringing in players, while there have been 17 players added to the Flyers from outside the organization in the span of GMRH is just down right silly. No matter how you slice it, the Flyers were able to bring in these 17 guys over the course of 4 years, and they have not been slam-dunks. Whether by trade or by FA, with the exception of Gudas and Bellemare, whom among those players can the Flyers point to as a win? And to iterate, Gudas and Bellemare being the two most likely winning additions to a team over the previous 4 seasons is a low-water mark for a competing team.

Making a deal just to make a deal, that kinda seems like the Blues/Schenn trade last year. The Flyers weren't seeking to make a trade, but were approached and decided, yeah sure, let's do this. That screams deal to make a deal. If not approached, they would've kept Schenn and ho-hum is ho-hum. Also, it's disingenuous to present the Flyers as trading for Frost & #14. I doubt the Blues make that trade knowing the pick will be #14. The trade is more accurately described as (Lehtera), Frost, & a future 1st rd pick. I will make a post on the St. Louis boards to ask their opinion of the trade.

But back to the bad product, the Flyers are not entertaining to a growing number of unrest fans. Far too often that arena is way too quiet. A good team generates buzz, audible noise, sometimes actually felt vibrations, that place is silent. If not for players performance, there should be some type of performance to make people entertained. Philadelphia is home to the Wanamaker Organ, largest functioning pipe organ in the world. I'm sure there are some talented folks associated with that could come down to the arena and play some interesting tunes instead of some lame rock-jock cd mix. Or the Flyers can take a page out of some other pro-sports teams and get a better Twitter game, make some better packages to show in the arena (the Sharks Christmas ones always get me, so good). Something to make the product, better.

(Side bar: I now want Joe Thorton as the prize FA/acquisition this year. Moar than JT (Islanders one). Jumob Joe has that ventriloquist dummy Slappy, f***ing GOLD!)


EDIT: Missed this previously- which player is referenced in this statement?
A team that was cap constrained and unable to resign its own player now has plenty of cap room and assets to make any more that will improve the team in the long-run.
I was unaware of any player leaving the Flyers due to cap crunch situations.
 
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Curufinwe

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Feb 28, 2013
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Yeah, I remember alluding to a list like this recently while ranting. Give props where due concerning Gudas and Bellemare, marginal as they may be, still positive. Everyone else is/was a zero for on-ice performance. I'll give Elliott an incomplete, so that's 2/16 = 12.5% (range of (3/17-17.6%) or (2/17-11.7%)).

MDZ and Neuvirth were more useful to the team than Bellemare, and I'm a Bellemare fan. Knocking Hextall for taking chances on low cost forwards like Gagner and Weal who didn't score as much as we would have liked is silly. Especially when he acquired those guys by dumping Pronger, Grossmann, Vinny and LSchenn as he was cleaning up the terrible cap situation he inherited.

Almost every guy on that list came with picks attached or was on a cheap/short term deal. Weise is the only real bad signing.

Umberger + 2015 4th for Hartnell
Medvedev - 1 year at $4m
Gagner + 2016 4th for Grossmann + Pronger
Lehtera + 2017 1st and 2018 1st for BSchenn
Filppula + 2017 4th + 2017 7th for Streit
Gordon - 1 year at $950K
Lyubimov - 1 year at $925K
Bellemare - 1 year at $600K, 2 years at $712,500, 2 years at $1.45m
Weal + 2016 3rd for Vinny + LSchenn - 1 year at $650K, 2 years at $1.75m
Weise - 4 years at $2.35m
MDZ - 1 year at $1.3m, 2 years at $3.875m
Neuvirth - 2 years at $1.625m, 2 years at $2.5m
Elliott - 2 years at $2.75m
Mrazek for 2018 3rd
White 1 year at $575K, 1 year at $800K
Gudas +2015 1st + 2015 3rd for Coburn - 4 years at $3.35m
Oduya was on waivers
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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Frost making the team pretty much depends on how he looks in September, TK made the team after 1 PD junior season.
Given his slight frame, if he struggles to put on muscle they may wait a year, the way the Islanders did with Barzal.

The myth that Hextall somehow marinates his prospects more than most teams has been disproven ad nasuem.
Like all NHL teams, it depends on the player, top ten picks make the NHL faster than picks past the top 20 for the most part.
Most prospects spend at least one season in the AHL, how many depends on the player.

It's frustrating for fans, but players develop at their own rate.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,438
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Pennsylvania
Let’s add some context, which is extremely important and being intentionally ignored by some people.

Green - worth it
Red - not worth it

Cap dumps to facilitate trade
Umberger
Lehtera

Added FOR FREE
Medvedev
Lyubimov
Gordon
Bellemare
Del Zotto
Neuvirth

Weise
Elliott
White
Oduya


Came back as positive value when dumping a trash player
Gagner
Filipula
Weal


Received in trade where we gave up something of value
Mrazek
Gudas


...really shows how weak these complaints are. The two cap dumps came back in trades that were definitely smart. Then the rest are mostly players we got for free to take a chance on or players who we got in great trades, where we indisputably got back more than we gave up.

Only exceptions are Weise (who turned out worse than anyone could have predicted) and Mrazek (who was awful but was the best option available at a time when we had to make a trade).

This list doesn’t fit this boards outrage and impatience.
 

The Madrigal

Registered User
Apr 26, 2016
9,172
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In a simulation
If Hextall killed somebody on live TV some of you would defend him. Great, a bunch of those moves didn't hurt the team that much. How about the GM actually sign some players who help the team and make it better. I guess that's too much to ask.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
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If Hextall killed somebody on live TV some of you would defend him. Great, a bunch of those moves didn't hurt the team that much. How about the GM actually sign some players who help the team and make it better. I guess that's too much to ask.
Like deals like this?

Bennett for #19
ROR for Konecny+Frost+#19
Hartman for Sanheim
Rubstov or Morin for Grabner
Sanheim +1st in 2018 for Domi
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,438
155,155
Pennsylvania
If Hextall killed somebody on live TV some of you would defend him. Great, a bunch of those moves didn't hurt the team that much. How about the GM actually sign some players who help the team and make it better. I guess that's too much to ask.

Philadelphia Flyers Draft History at hockeydb.com

Go ahead and look from 2017 down to 2014. You’ll see quite a few players added that have already significantly helped the team and many poor who likely will in the future. More than any realtistic signing.
 
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