Salary Cap: 2016-17 Roster Building XXII | Only 75 shopping days left till the deadline

[The Old Master]

What does Guentzel need to do to earn his way onto the roster? He's done more than any of Sheary, Rust, Wilson, or Kuhn did to prove they were ready before they got up. And he did more in 5 games than any of them did in a month or two even after they got here.

those guy's earned their spot in wbs. when the coach was down there. guentzel didn't get that break.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The whole Kunitz situation just doesn't make any sense to me. None at all.

those guy's earned their spot in wbs. when the coach was down there. guentzel didn't get that break.

That's it right there.

 

[KIRK]

The whole Kunitz situation just doesn't make any sense to me. None at all.



That's it right there.

Yep. Guentzel wasn't one of Sully's guys.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

And how much of that weaker goaltending is from blown/missed assignments? That goes both ways. Kunitz has played 31 games while averaging over 15 minutes a night. If he's that ****** of a player, it should be reflected somewhere other than his poor/disappointing production - which is still on pace for 40+ points.

I can show you where Guentzel's skill and hustle directly led to his points.

Can you show me where his missed assignments led to goals-against? Or are you extrapolating a small sample size of GA/60 to poor defensive play?

WC keeps spouting 1a on an EN goal in 7 games (while playing away from Malkin and just coming back from an injury, as if that's apples to apples with Guentzel's production), but ignores the 1g/4pts in 5 games after that stretch or the 2g/9pts in 11 games proceeding that injury.

Terrible production away from Geno is THE POINT. But you wanna blame a mystery health issue. Let's play spin the periodic table to see what mineral he was low on this time.

Racking up "being there" assists with Geno is THE POINT.

Kunitz on the other hand from our regular forwards is 3rd in GA60/GA with 11 scored against him 5v5. The only two that have less? Fehr and Kuhnhackl. Again, if he's such a bad player like almost every single person on this board claims... why isn't it getting reflected here? People talk about his ****** production stats (which I get). Yet his linemates are still scoring at a rate of 2.99 GF60 when he's on the ice (5th among-st our regular forwards). So despite his lack of production, clearly he's doing enough right that the team is out scoring the other team when he's on the ice.

I don't think we should have Fehr or Kuhnhackl playing with Sid or Geno right now either.

This doesn't change the fact that Kunitz needs to go, as we can almost certainly find someone better - if not someone who can produce more, at least someone who fits this teams style better. But for all the *****ing and moaning about why he's still here and not a HS... that's why.

Rip, we do have someone better. It was clear when he was up here, it's clear when he's tearing up the AHL, and it'll be clear when he's called up again.

But you won't own your position and admit as much when it inevitably happens by pre-emptively chalking it up to the benefits of added development time, which seems very convenient.

Because a team that is in their Cup window shouldn't be handing spots in the Top 6 to people with zero NHL experience. You do that, you end up with Janne Pesonen in the Top 6.

You have to make guys earn their way onto their roster and into their roles. That makes the whole team better. Of course, most would agree that Kunitz has earned his way out of his role, but it's a much easier argument that this is one specific problem with player evaluation rather than a bad overall philosophy. The overall philosophy just won the Stanley Cup; it's probably pretty good.

You think that a player tearing up the minors and scoring 3 goals in 5 games is being handed a spot? It takes some Olympic level mental gymnastics not to call that earning a spot when his competition took 30 games to score as many.

I'm not being glib. The goal is to win the Stanley Cup, which means that the goal in the area of roster construction is to build the roster most likely to win the Stanley Cup. There's at least some merit to the idea that the NHL roster most likely to win the Stanley Cup is the one roster currently existing in the NHL that we know for sure is capable of winning the Stanley Cup, because we just saw it win the Stanley Cup last year.

You don't keep a team wholesale. You identify problems, and address them.

Now, I actually disagree with that reasoning, because I can't recall any teams that won the Cup, stood pat in the offseason, and then repeated. In my opinion, if you're not getting better you're getting worse. However, I understand that there's a perfectly reasonable and non-idiotic rationale behind doing what I disagree with.

We disagree. I think it's perfectly idiotic to recognize a problem but avoid fixing it because the team largely won the Cup in spite of said problem the year before.

Unless you think the whole team feels it has to work harder to make up for Kunitz's ****tiness, which is a more valid argument than most I've heard for him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

They are certainly stupid with a small sample size. They also assume every player would maintain the same effectiveness if given more minutes. That's not always the case.

And what's worse is that I've seen some people here argue that Guentzel would maintain his GA/60 (meaning that he's awful defensively) while his goals/60 and points/60 would all drop.

I'm quite confident Guentzel will end up on the Penguins in time for the playoffs this year, whether it be by a trade (I have a hunch that one of the Penguins depth forwards gets moved for a depth D) or by injury. Him being in the AHL doesn't hurt him right now, and as long as he's here for the playoffs, it won't hurt the Penguins in games that actually matter.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

And how much of that weaker goaltending is from blown/missed assignments? That goes both ways. Kunitz has played 31 games while averaging over 15 minutes a night. If he's that ****** of a player, it should be reflected somewhere other than his poor/disappointing production - which is still on pace for 40+ points.

WC keeps spouting 1a on an EN goal in 7 games (while playing away from Malkin and just coming back from an injury, as if that's apples to apples with Guentzel's production), but ignores the 1g/4pts in 5 games after that stretch or the 2g/9pts in 11 games proceeding that injury.

Meanwhile it still doesn't change the fact that Guentzel's GA is the worst of our forwards by a large margin (1.5 GA60 over the team average). Nor does it change the fact that if he hadn't been shooting 37.5%, he would have been a net negative in his time here. Kunitz on the other hand from our regular forwards is 3rd in GA60/GA with 11 scored against him 5v5. The only two that have less? Fehr and Kuhnhackl. Again, if he's such a bad player like almost every single person on this board claims... why isn't it getting reflected here? People talk about his ****** production stats (which I get). Yet his linemates are still scoring at a rate of 2.99 GF60 when he's on the ice (5th among-st our regular forwards). So despite his lack of production, clearly he's doing enough right that the team is out scoring the other team when he's on the ice.

This doesn't change the fact that Kunitz needs to go, as we can almost certainly find someone better - if not someone who can produce more, at least someone who fits this teams style better. But for all the *****ing and moaning about why he's still here and not a HS... that's why.

Did you read the part of your post that I bolded? Because I'm not sure what a lot of the above has to do with the main part of your post I had an issue with (ie. Kunitz not being sheltered like Guentzel was).

As far as the rest of the discussion, GA/60 is dubious at the best of times. Using it when you're comparing a player whose played so little is even worse.

Plus, Kunitz plays on a scoring line. The word "scoring" is kind of key. If he's so good defensively, then he should be on the third or fourth line, preventing goals, instead of dragging down a scoring line and playing ahead of a guy (Guentzel) who is actually productive in that role.

 

[ruunto71*]

 

[ColePens]

Shocker. Letang kills the powerplay. Schultz kills it in the right way.

 

[Fordy]

i'll never advocate this?????

the pens pp is practically 2x better without letang, statistically

but i'll never advocate it!

 

[Corvidae]

Shocker. Letang kills the powerplay. Schultz kills it in the right way.

It's almost like he's horrendous at times on the powerplay and it's 100% obvious and he stays on the ice for almost the entire 2 minutes.

 

[ColePens]

i'll never advocate this?????

the pens pp is practically 2x better without letang, statistically

but i'll never advocate it!

And I know we all know this, but our team is about 1000x better with Letang in the line up 5 on 5. I just think he should not be handed the powerplay duties because he's not a natural powerplay player.

It's not going to hurt 58 that he's not the best powerplay QB. It will fuel him to be even better. Schultz should be #1. Period. Letang should play 30 minutes anyway.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

And I know we all know this, but our team is about 1000x better with Letang in the line up 5 on 5. I just think he should not be handed the powerplay duties because he's not a natural powerplay player.

It's not going to hurt 58 that he's not the best powerplay QB. It will fuel him to be even better. Schultz should be #1. Period. Letang should play 30 minutes anyway.

Whaddya think the odds are that Letang goes right back to PP1 when he returns?

The most the Pens will compromise is having both Schultz and Letang out there.

i'll never advocate this?????

the pens pp is practically 2x better without letang, statistically

but i'll never advocate it!

Don't want to ruffle any feathers now.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I'd never advocate getting things by merit. Letang has to realize that the PP is better without him, his ego might demand still being on PP1 but there's no way he thinks he's a stud out there. Everyone can see the numbers.

 

[ColePens]

Whaddya think the odds are that Letang goes right back to PP1 when he returns?

The most the Pens will compromise is having both Schultz and Letang out there.

I think the #1 issue with the organization right now is killer instinct. The three biggest issues under DB/Shero were team culture, accountability, and identity. JR/Sully fixed all three of those. Now they have their biggest flaw to fix and that is simply having a killer instinct.

They have to stop babying vets, picking favorites, afraid to move on from key players from 5 years ago, and trust their youth. We see that with how many chances MAF had before it was handed rightfully over to Murray. But let's not act like that little battle is over just quite yet. Guentzel's treatment was pretty crap, IMO. Kuhn was sat once for Fehr for no reason. Kunitz... it's been discussed to insane lengths. They need a killer instinct right now and simply go with the best possible player, no matter what. That includes Letang being off #1 powerplay.

To be fair, we thought it would be a 2-3 year plan to fix the three issues they fixed in 6 months. And no team is perfect. Let's remember that. But to move forward, a killer instinct is what they need. They talked to Bowman about the mistakes a coach can make when trying to repeat. Bowman discussed being complacent and moving forward. So far - no dice.

 

[Corvidae]

Whaddya think the odds are that Letang goes right back to PP1 when he returns?

The most the Pens will compromise is having both Schultz and Letang out there.



Don't want to ruffle any feathers now.

100%. I like Sully but they're just not there yet. Letang goes off the #1 PP the same day Kunutiz is scratched for a better player.

 

[KIRK]

I can show you where Guentzel's skill and hustle directly led to his points.

Can you show me where his missed assignments led to goals-against? Or are you extrapolating a small sample size of GA/60 to poor defensive play?



Terrible production away from Geno is THE POINT. But you wanna blame a mystery health issue. Let's play spin the periodic table to see what mineral he was low on this time.

Racking up "being there" assists with Geno is THE POINT.



I don't think we should have Fehr or Kuhnhackl playing with Sid or Geno right now either.



Rip, we do have someone better. It was clear when he was up here, it's clear when he's tearing up the AHL, and it'll be clear when he's called up again.

But you won't own your position and admit as much when it inevitably happens by pre-emptively chalking it up to the benefits of added development time, which seems very convenient.



You think that a player tearing up the minors and scoring 3 goals in 5 games is being handed a spot? It takes some Olympic level mental gymnastics not to call that earning a spot when his competition took 30 games to score as many.



You don't keep a team wholesale. You identify problems, and address them.



We disagree. I think it's perfectly idiotic to recognize a problem but avoid fixing it because the team largely won the Cup in spite of said problem the year before.

Unless you think the whole team feels it has to work harder to make up for Kunitz's ****tiness, which is a more valid argument than most I've heard for him.

There's also an eye test element with Malkin and Kunitz. With Kunitz, people legitimately were asking to start the year if Geno was done. As soon as he was without Kunitz, all of a sudden, you got old school Geno. Kunitz went back with him, and it's been eroding again. It's the same **** that happened last year with Sid. You saw the tole it took, and it really took Sully until the start of the playoffs to accept it. You can see what Kunitz does to compromise Geno's game, and I think it's at a point where Sully knows it but doesn't want to act on it unless he absolutely has to do it.

I think the #1 issue with the organization right now is killer instinct. The three biggest issues under DB/Shero were team culture, accountability, and identity. JR/Sully fixed all three of those. Now they have their biggest flaw to fix and that is simply having a killer instinct.

They have to stop babying vets, picking favorites, afraid to move on from key players from 5 years ago, and trust their youth. We see that with how many chances MAF had before it was handed rightfully over to Murray. But let's not act like that little battle is over just quite yet. Guentzel's treatment was pretty crap, IMO. Kuhn was sat once for Fehr for no reason. Kunitz... it's been discussed to insane lengths. They need a killer instinct right now and simply go with the best possible player, no matter what. That includes Letang being off #1 powerplay.

To be fair, we thought it would be a 2-3 year plan to fix the three issues they fixed in 6 months. And no team is perfect. Let's remember that. But to move forward, a killer instinct is what they need. They talked to Bowman about the mistakes a coach can make when trying to repeat. Bowman discussed being complacent and moving forward. So far - no dice.

It's there for the taking. JR and Sully just have to be willing to do it. What I hope they do is add an impact winger to the top nine, jettison Kunitz to space (or at least the fourth line if we have to be stuck with him), and find a solid vet #7 who is good enough to step up if you need him.

Thing is, that doesn't assure anything. Beyond health and how the other teams come together, you really have to hope things crystallize up front like they did last year. Making that move for an impact winger makes it more likely than if you stand pat. IMO, it makes it a lot more likely . . .

100%. I like Sully but they're just not their yet. Letang goes off the #1 PP the same day Kunutiz is scratched for a better player.

Fact Check: True

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I think the #1 issue with the organization right now is killer instinct. The three biggest issues under DB/Shero were team culture, accountability, and identity. JR/Sully fixed all three of those. Now they have their biggest flaw to fix and that is simply having a killer instinct.

They have to stop babying vets, picking favorites, afraid to move on from key players from 5 years ago, and trust their youth. We see that with how many chances MAF had before it was handed rightfully over to Murray. But let's not act like that little battle is over just quite yet. Guentzel's treatment was pretty crap, IMO. Kuhn was sat once for Fehr for no reason. Kunitz... it's been discussed to insane lengths. They need a killer instinct right now and simply go with the best possible player, no matter what. That includes Letang being off #1 powerplay.

To be fair, we thought it would be a 2-3 year plan to fix the three issues they fixed in 6 months. And no team is perfect. Let's remember that. But to move forward, a killer instinct is what they need. They talked to Bowman about the mistakes a coach can make when trying to repeat. Bowman discussed being complacent and moving forward. So far - no dice.

Nailed it.

100%. I like Sully but they're just not their yet. Letang goes off the #1 PP the same day Kunutiz is scratched for a better player.

Yuuup.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

There's also an eye test element with Malkin and Kunitz. With Kunitz, people legitimately were asking to start the year if Geno was done. As soon as he was without Kunitz, all of a sudden, you got old school Geno. Kunitz went back with him, and it's been eroding again. It's the same **** that happened last year with Sid.

That should be huge. But eye tests vary, even with something as apparently obvious as this.

You saw the tole it took, and it really took Sully until the start of the playoffs to accept it. You can see what Kunitz does to compromise Geno's game, and I think it's at a point where Sully knows it but doesn't want to act on it unless he absolutely has to do it.

I'm not sure whether I want that to be true or not.

 

[Pancakes]

Sample size. I'm not entirely convinced our PP is better off without Letang. Yeah he makes a ton of dumb reads, but he has his stretches too where he just kills it.

 

[Fordy]

Sample size. I'm not entirely convinced our PP is better off without Letang.

what? a few less goals in a third of the opportunities dude

Yeah he makes a ton of dumb reads, but he has his stretches too where he just kills it.

not really. he has stretches where he doesn't **** the play up, but he's almost never out there "killing it" on the powerplay

 

[Ogrezilla]

what? a few less goals in a third of the opportunities dude



not really. he has stretches where he doesn't **** the play up, but he's almost never out there "killing it" on the powerplay

I still say he wouldn't have nearly as many PP points as he does if his best days were simply not ****ing the play up. Though I have come around to Schultz being the better option overall.

 

[KIRK]

That should be huge. But eye tests vary, even with something as apparently obvious as this.



I'm not sure whether I want that to be true or not.

Agree that eye tests can vary, but in Kunitz's case vis-a-vis his impact on Malkin, it should range from bad to really ******* bad. Seeing his impact outside of this range is indicative only of willful blindness.

Shocker. Letang kills the powerplay. Schultz kills it in the right way.

It's still not the largest sample set. That said, I think it may be in good measure three things:

1. Less of the play-- from the breakout to offensive zone possession-- flows through Schultz. Yeah, he usually starts the breakout and plays the point, but I think in some measure you see Sid and Geno more involved, especially on the breakout.

2. Schultz doesn't telegraph things as badly as Letang does.

3. Schultz is a threat to shoot from the point. It opens things up.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I still think Letang could be solid in more of the old Whitney role on the PP. But he shouldn't be the guy it all runs through. Schultz definitely seems to be better at that. Letang shouldn't be in a position where he's mostly standing still with the puck. Even put him in Kessel's spot (on the 2nd unit) where when he takes a pass he skates in towards the net if the shot isn't there.

 

[Pancakes]

what? a few less goals in a third of the opportunities dude



not really. he has stretches where he doesn't **** the play up, but he's almost never out there "killing it" on the powerplay

From 2014 to now he's been #4 in the league for dmen in powerplay points and this despite playing significantly less games than Karlsson and some of the other names ahead of him. I'll agree that he massively massively frustrates me as much as anybody sometimes but for the type of talk people have about him you'd think he'd be a complete travesty in terms of PP production and that just has not been the case.

Having said that given what Schultz is doing right now and how the PP has performed with him on it I'm not opposed to him continuing to get time there as long as it keeps trucking along like it has.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Sample size. I'm not entirely convinced our PP is better off without Letang. Yeah he makes a ton of dumb reads, but he has his stretches too where he just kills it.

I don't think Letang ever makes great reads on the PP. But he has periods where his speed, strength, and natural talent overwhelm.