Salary Cap: 2016-17 roster-building part XVII | Contract/FA charts, cap info in post #1 ‎

[T1K]

The "must play top PP" thing, if true, is something that I find incredibly off putting. I guess if you have teams beating down your door though, you can say things like that.

I tend to agree. However surely Vesey has considered the fact that a contending team like the Pens are way deeper than most teams. If he's good enough he'll be on a PP unit, Kunitz won't road block him if Vesey is truly the better option. I don't think he'll sign with us but I'd argue that we're the best fit for him in the short and long term.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Not only were Rust and DiPauli teammates for Notre Dame, they also play a very similar style, they're almost the same size and they had similar college progressions (exploding offensively in their junior season). From what I've read, DiPauli is basically a center version of Rust, which would be a really nice add for the Pens bottom-6 if he pans out.

Vesey's still the main target obviously, but DiPauli sure sounds tailor-made for how we play under Sullivan.

 

[Riptide]

The "must play top PP" thing, if true, is something that I find incredibly off putting. I guess if you have teams beating down your door though, you can say things like that.

That's certainly part of it. The other part is while savy people can look at the stats and go wow, he put up 37 ES points as a rookie, that's pretty amazing... most yahoo's will look at his rookie season with 40 points and be like "wtf - this guy had so much hype!". The fact that 37 ES points would have (last season) put him between players like Stamkos, Giroux, Perry and Stepan, Landeskog, Eberle, Hornqvist and Staal is meaningless.

And more importantly, when it comes to getting paid... who do you think is seeing the money? The guy who puts up 37 ES points, but only has 40 points or the guy who puts up 37 ES points, but also scores 20 pts on the PP?

Schenn scored 37 ES points and 22 PPP and was signed to a 5.125m contract this summer.
Palmieri scored 34 ES points and 23 PPP and was signed to a 5m contract this summer.
Hudler scored 36 ES points and 10 PPP and doesn't yet have a contract.
JT Miller scored 39 ES points and 4 PPP and just signed a 2.75m contract.

Basically the bottom line is point totals are one of the biggest factors when it comes to a players compensation. A player who puts up 40 points - all ES will not get paid the same as one who puts up 60 pts with 40 being ES and 20 PPP.

Do I think that it will be a huge factor in his decision? No. But he'd be really stupid not to at least ask about it right now when the teams are all coming to him begging him to sign with them. No clue how honest teams will be, but then JV and his agent can just as easily look at depth charts and rosters and do the math themselves.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

That's certainly part of it. The other part is while savy people can look at the stats and go wow, he put up 37 ES points as a rookie, that's pretty amazing... most yahoo's will look at his rookie season with 40 points and be like "wtf - this guy had so much hype!". The fact that 37 ES points would have (last season) put him between players like Stamkos, Giroux, Perry and Stepan, Landeskog, Eberle, Hornqvist and Staal is meaningless.

And more importantly, when it comes to getting paid... who do you think is seeing the money? The guy who puts up 37 ES points, but only has 40 points or the guy who puts up 37 ES points, but also scores 20 pts on the PP?

Schenn scored 37 ES points and 22 PPP and was signed to a 5.125m contract this summer.
Palmieri scored 34 ES points and 23 PPP and was signed to a 5m contract this summer.
Hudler scored 36 ES points and 10 PPP and doesn't yet have a contract.
JT Miller scored 39 ES points and 4 PPP and just signed a 2.75m contract.

Basically the bottom line is point totals are one of the biggest factors when it comes to a players compensation. A player who puts up 40 points - all ES will not get paid the same as one who puts up 60 pts with 40 being ES and 20 PPP.

Do I think that it will be a huge factor in his decision? No. But he'd be really stupid not to at least ask about it right now when the teams are all coming to him begging him to sign with them. No clue how honest teams will be, but then JV and his agent can just as easily look at depth charts and rosters and do the math themselves.

And that's one reason he's pretty sure not to sign with us.

Maybe Depauli has given the Pens basically a verbal, but wants to make sure Vesey isn't ahead of him on the depth chart. Can't see it being a make or break, but no reason not to wait and make sure you know the lay of the land.

Do we know if he prefers opportunity at C?

 

[KrisLetAngry]

And that's one reason he's pretty sure not to sign with us.

Maybe Depauli has given the Pens basically a verbal, but wants to make sure Vesey isn't ahead of him on the depth chart. Can't see it being a make or break, but no reason not to wait and make sure you know the lay of the land.

Do we know if he prefers opportunity at C?

I think he doesn't but that is me just me with no insider opinion.

If we are on his list though my speculation is that he is OK to be a winger.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

And that's one reason he's pretty sure not to sign with us.

Maybe Depauli has given the Pens basically a verbal, but wants to make sure Vesey isn't ahead of him on the depth chart. Can't see it being a make or break, but no reason not to wait and make sure you know the lay of the land.

Do we know if he prefers opportunity at C?

idk how much being behind Vesey would factor in. Realistically DiPauli won't be near the top of the LW depth chart anyway, or in the NHL this season. Unless I've gotten a really wrong perception of him. Who knows, maybe he's bonded with Vesey over free agency and now they're a package deal, or Vesey is a good way to scope out a few teams.

Or JR sent a text to the wrong number and made things uncomfortable.

 

[KarIgo87]

Cap issues regarding performance bonuses for Vesey

If Pens sign Vesey for $925'000 and send Sundquist to AHL, our cap will be around 76,5 millions. +3.5 above Upper Limit.
Then we can put Dupuis on LTIR and according to CBA (50.10(d), p.289) Pens are allowed to exceed Upper Limit by 3.5 millions. So our Averaged Club Salary will be 76,5.
Illustration:

Illustration #1: The Upper Limit in a League Year is $70.0 million. On the last day of Training Camp, a Club has an Averaged Club Salary of $71.5 million (excluding Earnable Performance Bonuses up to the full amount of the Performance Bonus Cushion). A Player who has an SPC with an Averaged Amount of $2.0 million becomes unfit to play on the last day of Training Camp, and on the same day, the Club Loans a Player who has an SPC with an Averaged Amount of $1.5 million to the minors, decreasing its Averaged Club Salary to $70.0 million. On Opening Day, the Club exercises the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception on the unfit-to-play Player. The Club may then replace the unfit-to-play Player with any Player or Players who have SPCs with an (aggregate) Averaged Amount of $2.0 million. If these replacements are made on Opening Day and are maintained through the conclusion of the season, the Club's Averaged Club Salary is $72.0 million, as the Club is permitted to exceed the Upper Limit by $2.0 million because of the Bona-Fide Long- Term Injury/Illness Exception.

Bu there is also this rule (50.5(h)(ii), p.281):

A Club shall be permitted to have an Averaged Club Salary in excess of the Upper Limit resulting from Performance Bonuses solely to the extent that such excess results from the inclusion in Averaged Club Salary of: (i) Exhibit 5 Individual "A" Performance Bonuses and "B" Performance Bonuses paid by the Club that may be earned by Players in the Entry Level System and (ii) Performance Bonuses that may be earned by Players pursuant to Section 50.2(b)(i)(C) above, provided that under no circumstances may a Club's Averaged Club Salary so exceed the Upper Limit by an amount greater than the result of seven-and-one-half (7.5) percent multiplied by the Upper Limit (the "Performance Bonus Cushion").

7,5%, so called Performance Bonus Cushion, it's 5,475 million. So Averaged Club Salary can't be higher than 78,475, right? But it's already 76,5 because of Dupuis LTIR. So that means that Pens only have about 2 (78,475 - 76,5) millions for bonuses. 940'000 for Murray, Sheary and Pouliot.
So just 1 million bonuses for Vesey? Please, someone who understands all this stuff explain me the situation. Because common sense tells me that bonuses can't exceed $5'475'000 and in this case we should be fine. But this rules are a bit hazy so I'm worried.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Performance bonuses can be pushed to next year, so there is really no issue with the Pens cap regarding Vesey's bonuses. It's also premature to be looking at that, seeing how he hasn't signed here.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Don't bonuses carry over to the next year?
Dupuis/Kunitz and Scuderi's rentention will be off the books.

 

[KarIgo87]

Don't bonuses carry over to the next year?
Dupuis/Kunitz and Scuderi's rentention will be off the books.

Performance bonuses can be pushed to next year, so there is really no issue with the Pens cap regarding Vesey's bonuses. It's also premature to be looking at that, seeing how he hasn't signed here.

It's a different situation. You're talking about Upper limit exceeding, like Chicago last year with Panarin.
I'm talking about Averaged Club Salary (which includes bonuses and salaries of Injured players). Apparently it can't exceed Upper Limit under no circumstances. And it doesn't matter if Vesey, Murray, Sheary or anyone else won't hit those bonuses, they count against Averaged Club Salary anyway.
I don't know what penalty is for exceeding this 7,5%, so I'm asking more informed people.

 

[WayneSid9987]

It's a different situation. You're talking about Upper limit exceeding, like Chicago last year with Panarin.
I'm talking about Averaged Club Salary (which includes bonuses and salaries of Injured players). Apparently it can't exceed Upper Limit under no circumstances. And it doesn't matter if Vesey, Murray, Sheary or anyone else won't hit those bonuses, they count against Averaged Club Salary anyway.
I don't know what penalty is for exceeding this 7,5%, so I'm asking more informed people.

Well hit up Mouser or UCantHanzalTheTruth.
Not really something to worry about unless Vesey signs though like Emp said.

 

[KarIgo87]

Well hit up Mouser or UCantHanzalTheTruth.
Not really something to worry about unless Vesey signs though like Emp said.

Well, if you can't give him maximum bonuses because of the rules then he won't sign, right? That's what I was trying to find out - can we give him 2,8 millions in bonuses or not.

 

[Riptide]

And that's one reason he's pretty sure not to sign with us.

Maybe Depauli has given the Pens basically a verbal, but wants to make sure Vesey isn't ahead of him on the depth chart. Can't see it being a make or break, but no reason not to wait and make sure you know the lay of the land.

Do we know if he prefers opportunity at C?

Doubt that has anything to do with it. The odds of him playing in the NHL next season likely isn't all that high, so I can't see Vesey signing or not signing being an issue. More likely his agent is just tied up with Vesey and will get a contract done with PIT over the next day or two. It's not like there's a major rush right now.

 

[Riptide]

Don't bonuses carry over to the next year?
Dupuis/Kunitz and Scuderi's rentention will be off the books.

Only if you don't have the cap space to take the hit this year. If we were millions under the cap, then we could easily apply whatever bonuses he hits to this year's cap. However as we're not, anything that any of our guys hit will have to be applied to next years cap.

Well, if you can't give him maximum bonuses because of the rules then he won't sign, right? That's what I was trying to find out - can we give him 2,8 millions in bonuses or not.

Almost certainly not. I think that would be an automatic disqualifier. Especially as only 850k of those bonuses are ones he can negotiate. The other 2m is one for major league awards, and other than either being eligible for it or not, they can't negotiate with it (2m or 0).

However I'm very confident that this isn't an issue. If it was, some of the many much smarter people then us would have mentioned it already.

 

[KarIgo87]

However I'm very confident that this isn't an issue. If it was, some of the many much smarter people then us would have mentioned it already.

Actually someone on Russian sports forums mentioned it. I argued with him but now I'm not sure. I asked one of the "much smarter people" (mouser) as OGBobbyFarnham suggested, let's see what he has to say.

 

[mouser]

If Pens sign Vesey for $925'000 and send Sundquist to AHL, our cap will be around 76,5 millions. +3.5 above Upper Limit.
Then we can put Dupuis on LTIR and according to CBA (50.10(d), p.289) Pens are allowed to exceed Upper Limit by 3.5 millions. So our Averaged Club Salary will be 76,5.
Illustration:

Illustration #1: The Upper Limit in a League Year is $70.0 million. On the last day of Training Camp, a Club has an Averaged Club Salary of $71.5 million (excluding Earnable Performance Bonuses up to the full amount of the Performance Bonus Cushion). A Player who has an SPC with an Averaged Amount of $2.0 million becomes unfit to play on the last day of Training Camp, and on the same day, the Club Loans a Player who has an SPC with an Averaged Amount of $1.5 million to the minors, decreasing its Averaged Club Salary to $70.0 million. On Opening Day, the Club exercises the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception on the unfit-to-play Player. The Club may then replace the unfit-to-play Player with any Player or Players who have SPCs with an (aggregate) Averaged Amount of $2.0 million. If these replacements are made on Opening Day and are maintained through the conclusion of the season, the Club's Averaged Club Salary is $72.0 million, as the Club is permitted to exceed the Upper Limit by $2.0 million because of the Bona-Fide Long- Term Injury/Illness Exception.

This all appears to be correct.

Bu there is also this rule (50.5(h)(ii), p.281):

A Club shall be permitted to have an Averaged Club Salary in excess of the Upper Limit resulting from Performance Bonuses solely to the extent that such excess results from the inclusion in Averaged Club Salary of: (i) Exhibit 5 Individual "A" Performance Bonuses and "B" Performance Bonuses paid by the Club that may be earned by Players in the Entry Level System and (ii) Performance Bonuses that may be earned by Players pursuant to Section 50.2(b)(i)(C) above, provided that under no circumstances may a Club's Averaged Club Salary so exceed the Upper Limit by an amount greater than the result of seven-and-one-half (7.5) percent multiplied by the Upper Limit (the "Performance Bonus Cushion").

7,5%, so called Performance Bonus Cushion, it's 5,475 million. So Averaged Club Salary can't be higher than 78,475, right? But it's already 76,5 because of Dupuis LTIR. So that means that Pens only have about 2 (78,475 - 76,5) millions for bonuses. 940'000 for Murray, Sheary and Pouliot.
So just 1 million bonuses for Vesey? Please, someone who understands all this stuff explain me the situation. Because common sense tells me that bonuses can't exceed $5'475'000 and in this case we should be fine. But this rules are a bit hazy so I'm worried.

This CBA section is restricted solely to discussing the Performance Bonus Cushion. It is not a catch-all that includes LTIR Exception. So following your example the Pens would have an Upper Limit of ~$76.5m signing Vesey and putting Dupuis on LTIR. The team would still have the ability to have up to $5.475m (7.5%) in Performance bonuses not count against that ~$76.5m cap.

One notable interaction of Performance Bonuses and LTIR: if a team finishes the season above the cap as a result of the LTIR Exception then all earned Performance Bonuses are 100% carried as an overage to the next season. LTIR Exception space cannot be used to fit in earned Performance Bonuses. This is a side effect of how the CBA language covers the LTIR Exception and Performance Bonus resolution at the end of the season.

 

[KarIgo87]

cussing the Performance Bonus Cushion. It is not a catch-all that includes LTIR Exception. So following your example the Pens would have an Upper Limit of ~$76.5m signing Vesey and putting Dupuis on LTIR. The team would still have the ability to have up to $5.475m (7.5%) in Performance bonuses not count against that ~$76.5m cap.

Thank you for a quick response and clarifying this situation. Glad to hear that common sense prevails.

One notable interaction of Performance Bonuses and LTIR: if a team finishes the season above the cap as a result of the LTIR Exception then all earned Performance Bonuses are 100% carried as an overage to the next season. LTIR Exception space cannot be used to fit in earned Performance Bonuses. This is a side effect of how the CBA language covers the LTIR Exception and Performance Bonus resolution at the end of the season.

So if by the end of the season our Payroll will be $76.5m+$2.8+$0.94m=$80.24m then overage against next year cap will be $80.24m-$73m=$7.24m? Or $80.24m-$76.5m=$3.74m?

 

[SEALBound]

I think vesey signing here would have been very likely if it werent for the pp issue. Hes looking to maximize his production and despite potentially playing with Sid/Geno no PP will be a disadvantage.

I think what they really have to sell him on is next year...and the years after. As far as I'm concerned, once Kunitz is gone, Vesey is the man on the LW. He'd be the future of the LW for the Penguins and a big part of the new "core" when Sid and Geno decline.

No reason he couldn't beat anyone sans Sid, Geno, Tang, Phil on the 1PP or especially the 2PP. Next year, it's anyone one's spot. No coach will "guarantee" it.

Not only were Rust and DiPauli teammates for Notre Dame, they also play a very similar style, they're almost the same size and they had similar college progressions (exploding offensively in their junior season). From what I've read, DiPauli is basically a center version of Rust, which would be a really nice add for the Pens bottom-6 if he pans out.

Sounds like it will be a heck of a pick up and absolutely something we need. Excited to hopefully have him aboard. Rated a 6.5D by HF. Gotta assume Cullen retires after this, and if we lose Bonino, we could be looking at Sundqvist and this kid as the bottom 6 centers. Worst case, he's a call up. Best case, you could role a line of Kuhn-DiPauli-Sunqvist in a couple years.

Even if the Pens don't sign Vesey, I'm very proud and happy about JR right now. Obviously I don't know what is going on behind the scenes, but he wants young/fast to be our identity. I obviously don't love keeping MAF as a 5m backup, but you can tell JR isn't going to sit around this year and just hope. Dude is legit about getting another championship.

Absolutely. Tell ya what, trading off Fleury and adding another legit top 6 scoring threat, like Hudler for example, would have been JR a god.

Vesey would be awesome but I'm not expecting it. As far as I'm concerned, resigning Schultz and Cullen made the off season a success. Locking up Kuhn, Wilson, and Rust early last year at those rates was awesome. Anything now is gravy. The only looming situation is MAF...and let me tell you...they best not balk on Murray.

 

[SEALBound]

Question about the bonuses, do the bonus count against the cap regardless or do they only count if he earns them?

 

[WayneSid9987]

I agree that that^ was something the Pens would have to sell to Vesey if he was to be persuaded to come here.

That there isn't an established "LW anchor" here as JR likes to call it.
Theres Hagelin who's a do everything top 9 guy, Kunitz who probably isn't a Pen in 17-18 and some decent college kids who no one knows how their NHL careers will go from here. He comes in and establishes himself, theres tons of hockey to be played on Sid or Geno's hip. And if you stick there, tons of $ to be made too.

 

[Return of the Paek]

DiPauli is a done deal. Per Bombulie.

 

[Kasperi kapanen]

Pens officially signed Di Pauli.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Nice. Love getting free prospects.

 

[mouser]

Thank you for a quick response and clarifying this situation. Glad to hear that common sense prevails.


So if by the end of the season our Payroll will be $76.5m+$2.8+$0.94m=$80.24m then overage against next year cap will be $80.24m-$73m=$7.24m? Or $80.24m-$76.5m=$3.74m?

It would be the later smaller number. Whatever the earned amount of Performance Bonuses by all players was.

Question about the bonuses, do the bonus count against the cap regardless or do they only count if he earns them?

They only count if earned. Vessey's pretty much a lock to never sniff the $2m allowed schedule B bonuses. It would only be the $850k in Schedule A bonuses that he could realistically have an opportunity to earn.

 

[SEALBound]

PittsburghTribSports ‏@TribSports 19m19 minutes ago Pittsburgh, PA
Penguins sign high-energy Notre Dame two-way center Thomas DiPauli, reports @BombulieTrib. http://*******/2bC4AQv

nice