Salary Cap: 2016-17 roster-building part XIV | Contract/FA charts in post #1 | Cap set at $73M

[hooverdam]

What do you see as Pouliot's upside? Not sure if you're a fan of comparables, but would a Brian Campbell or Alex Goligoski be the type of top end he has? Duncan Keith? Nick Leddy?

I'll admit I don't see the special quality in him that some do. Even when he's been given an opportunity, he's looked at best "solid". I can't recall a single NHL game where he put on the kind of display that made me think he'd be a future top pairing stud.

The March 9th 2015 game against the Sharks immediately comes to mind. We lost the game in a shootout and he didn't come up with a point, but most people that watched that game finally got it about Pouliot. He was fantastic in that game.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Always one for the strong opinions of players

Apologies.

Discussion on a hockey message board is weird.

 

[Shaftception]

I'll admit I don't see the special quality in him that some do. Even when he's been given an opportunity, he's looked at best "solid". I can't recall a single NHL game where he put on the kind of display that made me think he'd be a future top pairing stud.

Think I'm on the same boat. My only real issue with Pouliot is his biggest advertised strength will likely not be of much use here for the foreseeable future, that being a powerplay quarterback.

Considering this team's reluctance to shake the apple cart too much regarding their core players, Letang's current choke hold on the position specifically, is it possible to get max value out of Pouliot in such a case even if he improves as a player elsewhere? I'm not so sure he'll ever get the opportunity, at least not during the remaining prime years of the core, therefore what should the realistic expectations for him be? Will we/they have to simply accept, whether it be due to lack of growth or opportunity, that he'll never live up to his draft selection barring what would be a significant change in roster/philosophy for this specific team?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

DP's projection has always been nothing more than a PP specialist who will likely need sheltered minutes/role at ES. Even at his best at the NHL level, all I've ever seen from Pouliot was a pedestrian player. Maybe it's a confidence thing, maybe it's a coaching thing, maybe it's a conditioning thing... Whatever it is, it's not great.

Totally disagree there. Pouliot was always primarily an offensive defenseman, obviously, but by no means was he always projected to be a PP specialist who had to be protected at ES. He was a full-menu defenseman (ES, PP, PK) for all of Portland's Mem Cup runs, as well as at the WJC where he logged a ton of minutes as Canada's #1 defenseman.

He ain't some sort of glorified Marc-Andre Bergeron. Any of his issues are easily categorized under the heading "development of a young PMD".

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Think I'm on the same boat. My only real issue with Pouliot is his biggest advertised strength will likely not be of much use here for the foreseeable future, that being a powerplay quarterback.

Considering this team's reluctance to shake the apple cart too much regarding their core players, Letang's current choke hold on the position specifically, is it possible to get max value out of Pouliot in such a case even if he improves as a player elsewhere? I'm not so sure he'll ever get the opportunity, at least not during the remaining prime years of the core, therefore what should the realistic expectations for him be? Will we/they have to simply accept, whether it be due to lack of growth or opportunity, that he'll never live up to his draft selection barring what would be a significant change in roster/philosophy for this specific team?

DP's also very good in transition. He can skate the puck out of danger or make a precision pass.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

I kinda like to think that Maatta's and Pouliot's placements in the draft were switched.

 

[Shaftception]

DP's also very good in transition. He can skate the puck out of danger or make a precision pass.

I don't disagree, my question is whether or not him not having the opportunity to quarterback the powerplay as long as Letang is here will still allow the team to exploit his potential to the fullest. If not, should that refocus expectations for his future here?

Then again, for all I know they've already had such a discussion and are content with whatever role he'll fit so who knows.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

My biggest problem is that the team seems to have felt this way too. They wanted him to be a top 4 defenseman after a good half a season and when he stumbled in camp and didn't make it, it was like he personally offended all of them. It's like they were counting on him being ready last September and when he wasn't, they completely panicked and then turned on him.

This was all after they pumped up him training with Gary Roberts, put him in all the preseason promotional stuff, had a bunch of fluff pieces about what a good mentor Gonchar would be for him...that all vanished in like a week. It's really insane how fast they can turn on a player.

To be fair I thought he took his spot in the lineup for granted during pre-season and lollygagged.

He did take his demotion well and made the best of his opportunity when he got another chance. Schultz was simply given his spot and really didn't beat out DP IMHO.

They won the cup with Schultz, so I can't complain. I do think going fwd DP is going to be a much better player though.

It doesn't help that almost all of us wanted one of those guys that signed and are set to sign 5-6 million multi-year contracts.

I'm not ready to threw Pouliot away for nothing, I still think he has value. But it's painful to pick him where we did, and are still wondering whether or not he's even going to be in our lineup next year.

They did just win a cup, and I suspect if they took say, Forsberg, there would be no Kessel. I know which of the two I would prefer.

They have a cup and a very talented young blueliner. Caps traded Forsberg in a trade that will haunt them for years, and they just had their best season in franchise history and were Pens roadkill on their way to another SC.

Let's not forget that they also plucked Maatta and Murray out of that draft, and they were instrumental pieces in winning the cup. So all things considered, I can't say I am feeling too badly about that draft.

Fair point about Dumo. I was one of those people that thought Dumo wouldn't be anything more than a good bottom pairing guy. Still, it's a lot easier for a guy like Dumo--who isn't essentially a one-trick pony, PP guy--to carve out his spot in the lineup. DP's projection has always been nothing more than a PP specialist who will likely need sheltered minutes/role at ES. Even at his best at the NHL level, all I've ever seen from Pouliot was a pedestrian player. Maybe it's a confidence thing, maybe it's a coaching thing, maybe it's a conditioning thing... Whatever it is, it's not great.

I'm not even really worried about DP being the 8th overall pick anymore. It was a dumb pick at the time, and there's an abundance of evidence since then that supports the idea it was the wrong pick. I just hope we move on from it, because I personally don't see anything special in the kid. Hopefully he still has some sort of value on the trade market based on his draft pedigree and age, because we have bigger holes to worry about than a guy slotting in as our 6th/7th defenseman. Namely the scoring line LW situation. If we can package Pouliot with MAF to Dallas for something like Niemi and Janmark or Nuke, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Except for maybe about half a dozen games, he has mostly sat back when he is in the NHL. Let's see how everyone feels about him when he gets comfortable.

What do you see as Pouliot's upside? Not sure if you're a fan of comparables, but would a Brian Campbell or Alex Goligoski be the type of top end he has? Duncan Keith? Nick Leddy?

I'll admit I don't see the special quality in him that some do. Even when he's been given an opportunity, he's looked at best "solid". I can't recall a single NHL game where he put on the kind of display that made me think he'd be a future top pairing stud.

I never saw him as a top pairing guy. I've been whining on here for years that this org needs to build around speed and skill and he fits like a glove into the image I always had of a quick skating blueline that can really move the puck.

Essentially, I always saw DP as a 3 or 4 that will help make your transition game elite and be a nightmare to account for when he starts roving.

Look how effective Daley is in this kind of system, and we all know he isn't some stalwart in his own end.

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

I wouldn't lose any sleep if they decided to move Pouliot. I don't really see anything in him whatsoever, and I doubt he's ever going to dethrone Letang as the go-to PP guy. Can't imagine they're very happy with him after seeing him play like a zombie on the ice, and looking like he washes down Big Macs with chocolate shakes in those summer photos.

I just hope the organization's (alleged) disdain for Pouliot doesn't mean they simply dump him for nothing like they did with Despres.

Remember when you wanted to give away Letang earlier this year?

Maybe scouting talent on defense isn't your strong suit.

 

[SEALBound]

I kinda like to think that Maatta's and Pouliot's placements in the draft were switched.

Yes and No.

Forsberg was still available. Maatta was a gift.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I don't disagree, my question is whether or not him not having the opportunity to quarterback the powerplay as long as Letang is here will still allow the team to exploit his potential to the fullest. If not, should that refocus expectations for his future here?

Then again, for all I know they've already had such a discussion and are content with whatever role he'll fit so who knows.

I don't think it's a big concern. Everyone understands how important Daley was to our success last year in spite of not being the #1 PPQB - if DP can grow to have that sort of impact here, he'll be a huge positive regardless.

What's most important is that he does well with the opportunities he's given, IMO.

 

[SEALBound]

Pouliot is the future #4 dman partnering with Maatta or Dumo on the 2nd pairing.

Dumo/Maatta-Letang
Maatta/Dumo-Pouliot

once Daley leaves us. Cole-whoever for the bottom pairing. We need Pouliot here. If we are not going to keep him, the return better be significant in terms of filling a hole. Trading him is a "fill a hole by creating a hole"

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I kinda like to think that Maatta's and Pouliot's placements in the draft were switched.

Said it at the draft and I still say it today.

Doesn't help that we could've gotten both Määttä and Forsberg, but had the Penguins taken Olli at #8 I don't really think too many of us would have complained nearly as much. Pouliot being slightly off the board is really what angered people.

Getting both Olli and Forsberg, though...man...that would have been a dream draft right there. I still think Pouliot becomes a damn good second pairing defenseman, but that'll always hang over that pick.

 

[Zero Pucks]

They did just win a cup, and I suspect if they took say, Forsberg, there would be no Kessel. I know which of the two I would prefer.

They have a cup and a very talented young blueliner. Caps traded Forsberg in a trade that will haunt them for years, and they just had their best season in franchise history and were Pens roadkill on their way to another SC.

Let's not forget that they also plucked Maatta and Murray out of that draft, and they were instrumental pieces in winning the cup. So all things considered, I can't say I am feeling too badly about that draft.

Who's to say we wouldn't have won more cups had we drafted a little more sensibly with that pick? You're preaching that we have to be patient with Pouliot, I get that. But how much more patient do we have to be? It's been 4 years since that draft and there's been many other 'project' defensemen drafted much later than Pouliot was in the same draft making a big impact on their teams like; Severson, Parayko, Gostisbehere and a handful of other ones knocking on the door much louder than Pouliot is. I don't think it's unreasonable to start expecting some results soon.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Said it at the draft and I still say it today.

Doesn't help that we could've gotten both Määttä and Forsberg, but had the Penguins taken Olli at #8 I don't really think too many of us would have complained nearly as much. Pouliot being slightly off the board is really what angered people.

Getting both Olli and Forsberg, though...man...that would have been a dream draft right there. I still think Pouliot becomes a damn good second pairing defenseman, but that'll always hang over that pick.

Atleast we didn't trade Forsberg for Erat and Latta. There seems to be something with trading for any Forsberg that suddenly makes the trade a steal.

 

[Shady Machine]

Fair point about Dumo. I was one of those people that thought Dumo wouldn't be anything more than a good bottom pairing guy. Still, it's a lot easier for a guy like Dumo--who isn't essentially a one-trick pony, PP guy--to carve out his spot in the lineup. DP's projection has always been nothing more than a PP specialist who will likely need sheltered minutes/role at ES. Even at his best at the NHL level, all I've ever seen from Pouliot was a pedestrian player. Maybe it's a confidence thing, maybe it's a coaching thing, maybe it's a conditioning thing... Whatever it is, it's not great.

I think your projection of what DP has always been is clouded just a tad bit. His draft projection was a high end offensive dman. I have no idea how he became a guaranteed Marc Andre Bergeron from birth.

 

[Shady Machine]

Who's to say we wouldn't have won more cups had we drafted a little more sensibly with that pick? You're preaching that we have to be patient with Pouliot, I get that. But how much more patient do we have to be? It's been 4 years since that draft and there's been many other 'project' defensemen drafted much later than Pouliot was in the same draft making a big impact on their teams like; Severson, Parayko, Gostisbehere and a handful of other ones knocking on the door much louder than Pouliot is. I don't think it's unreasonable to start expecting some results soon.

No it's not unreasonable and I think this is the year we see some results. Whether those results are a bottom pairing or a top 4 guy remains to be seen. I expect him to solidify a bottom pairing / 2nd PP role by the end of the season (unless he's traded).

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I never saw him as a top pairing guy. I've been whining on here for years that this org needs to build around speed and skill and he fits like a glove into the image I always had of a quick skating blueline that can really move the puck.

Essentially, I always saw DP as a 3 or 4 that will help make your transition game elite and be a nightmare to account for when he starts roving.

Look how effective Daley is in this kind of system, and we all know he isn't some stalwart in his own end.

Maybe it's because he looks so lackadaisical out there, but he didn't look all that fast to me. Not a bad skater like Maatta, but not close to a Daley-level skater.

I guess I'm hung up on his draft position and who the Pens could have (should have) taken instead. But I'd be a bit disappointed if he ended up as a slower skating Daley.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Who's to say we wouldn't have won more cups had we drafted a little more sensibly with that pick? You're preaching that we have to be patient with Pouliot, I get that. But how much more patient do we have to be? It's been 4 years since that draft and there's been many other 'project' defensemen drafted much later than Pouliot was in the same draft making a big impact on their teams like; Severson, Parayko, Gostisbehere and a handful of other ones knocking on the door much louder than Pouliot is. I don't think it's unreasonable to start expecting some results soon.

I feel safe in assuming that drafting Forsberg (the fetish of this board) wouldn't have made them win any extra cups. I also again strongly feel his presence means no Kessel.

Dumo was a 2009 draftee and just came into his own this past season, six years after being drafted.

I preached patience for him for at least the last two years after reading all of the ridiculous proposals to "get anything for him while he still had value" posts.

Maybe it's because he looks so lackadaisical out there, but he didn't look all that fast to me. Not a bad skater like Maatta, but not close to a Daley-level skater.

I guess I'm hung up on his draft position and who the Pens could have (should have) taken instead. But I'd be a bit disappointed if he ended up as a slower skating Daley.

That's his style. He plays cool and that's what allows him to hold the puck and make the kind of plays he does. It's a double edged sword he needs to work out with the speed of the NHL, but he will. He's a smart player, I have little doubt he will figure it out.

He may not have Daley's speed, but Daley can't dish like him. He has elite vision with the puck. He just needs playing time, just as Dumo did.

I think people need to realize that that 2012 draft is already a huge reason for this latest cup and stop worrying about guys they passed up to take DP. If they make any other pick there, it would have a butterfly effect on the rest of the draft and the other moves they made to win the cup this year. Maybe they don't get Murray, almost assuredly they don't get Kessel if they take Forsberg.

It worked out perfectly IMHO.

 

[Jacob]

Pouliot doesn't have Daley or Letang's skating but he is pretty mobile and plays a very active style, always moving when the play is in the offensive zone and darting into holes and stuff.

 

[SEALBound]

Pouliot doesn't have Daley or Letang's skating but he is pretty mobile and plays a very active style, always moving when the play is in the offensive zone and darting into holes and stuff.

Pouliot is on par with Daley on pure skating ability. Perhaps not Letang but Letang is an elite skater in the league.

Not meeting up to those two's skating skill set does not mean by any stretch that Pouliot is not a good skater. That was arguably his strongest skill set.

 

[WayneSid9987]

The people saying that think so (not me) because they believe the Pens will threaten to buy out Fleury if they don't take a 2nd or whatever. I believe LV will and should call their bluff and I don't believe the Pens will buy out Fleury. I think all trade options will be exhausted before that, including taking a **** return and/or a salary dump in return.

So to me, it's going to cost a 1st or more if it every gets to that option.

It won't cost nearly that much to get LV not to touch Murray, if it came to that.
It'll be something like Bleuger-level prospects or lower + 5th to 7th rd picks(if the others of these types of deals are the precedent).

LV won't be zero'ing in on Pitt to try and stick it to them.
They'll have a good roster to start with and they'll take any free assets they can get knowing full well they won't be getting MM.

I mean LV is in a win/win situation if it comes to that... they either call the bluff and the Pens buy-out MAF and the Pens are stuck with a buy-out cap hit, or they negotiate with them for a "bribe" with 100% of the leverage and end up with a couple draft picks (I'd say a 1st and 3rd-ish, minimum) plus someone off the Pens roster.

The Pens loose in either situation.

Expansion teams aren't looking to stick it to other NHL clubs like that.
And LV will have a much better team to start out than other exp. clubs of the past.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

It won't cost nearly that much to get LV not to touch Murray, if it came to that.
It'll be something like Bleuger-level prospects or lower + 5th to 7th rd picks(if the others of these types of deals are the precedent).

LV won't be zero'ing in on Pitt to try and stick it to them.
They'll have a good roster to start with and they'll take any free assets they can get knowing full well they won't be getting MM.

Why wouldn't they pressure us? Free assets they can get at free agency.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Why wouldn't they pressure us? Free assets they can get at free agency.

Cuz they're a brand new team that has alot more things to be worried about than pressuring one team to do certain things.

FA'y isn't free. It's expensive.

Probably won't come to that anyway but if theres other deals around the league for LV to not touch a certain player, there will be no 1st's involved. Pretty sure about that.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I think your projection of what DP has always been is clouded just a tad bit. His draft projection was a high end offensive dman. I have no idea how he became a guaranteed Marc Andre Bergeron from birth.

I don't know. I've never heard anything about his all-around game, or anyone touting anything other than his offensive/PP potential as a selling point.

From what I've seen at the NHL-level, he's got a whole Hell of a lot of work to do in his own end. Doesn't help the fact that he looks like he's sleepwalking through shifts far too often.

Now again, maybe that's a coaching thing, maybe it's a development thing. I just don't see him ever becoming some kind of great offensive player. Certainly not on a team that's got Dumo-Letang and Maatta-Daley as it's top-4 next season and potentially beyond if Daley shows no signs of slowing down. Tough for a guy like Pouliot to get his feet under him, develop, and ultimately take over Daley's spot if Daley's still playing at a high level next spring.