Salary Cap: 2015 Off-season Roster Building IV

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

And hey... having at least one massive hole in Malkin's line year in and year out has sort of become tradition, at this point, too. And we wouldn't want to mess with tradition.

 

[realityis]

That would be awesome. Is there actually reason to think Boedker is an option? I keep seeing his name come up.

I was golfing with a guy from Arizona that follows the Cyotes, who seemed to think that Boedker would be a guy moved. They have big holes down the middle. Looking at there prospects coming into the system Boedker could be moved. would say Sutter plus would get them thinking.

 

[Shady Machine]

Ideally, it would be a deal like Perron, where we did it around midseason. We don't need to have the roster completely finalized by the start of the season, we just can't have a ton of holes like we have had. If we go into the season next year only missing a 2nd line RW for Malkin, I'd be happy with that.

I wouldn't. Malkin has had way too many seasons with question marks at his wing. The management team owes Malkin a winger. I really believe they need to find one this summer. I'm not saying that winger has to be a bonafide proven top 6er, but they need to have the talent to become one.

One top 6 wing trade (Boedker, Yak, etc) and one free agent signing (Europe, KHL, Frolik). That would make me happy. Anything short of that and the management team has failed.

Actually, I'd even be okay with Bennett there if they were committed to live through the growing pains. I'm just convinced he is going to be moved so I rarely mention it anymore.

 

[BHD]

Boedker is overvalued. The asking price seems to be Sutter, Bennett, and then some. He isn't worth that much IMO.

In reality, though, JR should definitely try to acquire him.

 

[Shady Machine]

Boedker is overvalued. The asking price seems to be Sutter, Bennett, and then some. He isn't worth that much IMO.

Maybe not but we are desperate

I'd definitely trade Sutter, Bennett, tiny plus for him. He's the right age and proven enough for this team to keep him in the top 6. Moving Sutter opens up cap space and you can overpay for a 3C if you want (Soderberg for example).

 

[penguins2946*]

I wouldn't. Malkin has had way too many seasons with question marks at his wing. The management team owes Malkin a winger. I really believe they need to find one this summer. I'm not saying that winger has to be a bonafide proven top 6er, but they need to have the talent to become one.

One top 6 wing trade (Boedker, Yak, etc) and one free agent signing (Europe, KHL, Frolik). That would make me happy. Anything short of that and the management team has failed.

Actually, I'd even be okay with Bennett there if they were committed to live through the growing pains. I'm just convinced he is going to be moved so I rarely mention it anymore.

I mean, he had Neal for 3 seasons, and also had some pretty solid wingers over the years like Sykora, Malone, Kunitz (when Sid was out), Perron, Jokinen and Sullivan. It's not like he's been playing with scrubs his entire career. I don't think Malkin ever played for an extended period of time with subpar linemates outside of the 09-10 season. Crosby's list of wingers is a less impressive than Malkin's IMO, not including Hossa since it was like 20 games. We need to bring in another winger so that line is at its best, not because we owe Malkin to bring him in one.

 

[NjPensfan]

Agreed.
Boedker-Crosby-Hornqvist, would be awesome to watch.

Then I would Sign Plotnikov. And role a second line of
Perron-Malkin-Plotnikov.

That's a major upgrade over what's been iced here.

I still think that there is a possibility that Yakupov gets added in the off season. Especially if the Pens were kicking the tires on him this season.

Looks good to me! So, what would you anticipate the bottom six looking like? Something like...

Kunitz-Sunqvist-Bennett
Comeau-Lap-Downie

Do we resign the fourth liners? Does KK get a chance in the top 6?

 

[Ugene Magic]

No, you don't trade away Simon Despres for Ben Lovejoy if you're committed to rebuilding. You don't trade two picks for Daniel Winnik if you're rebuilding. We made moves with the intention of winning the Cup this year with the knowledge that both of them would be setting us back going forward. That's a team trying to win now. And we have made similar moves every year since 2008.

Do we have to list the names that went out, did not re-sign. It's pretty large you know. They certainly went through a mini rebuild this past season. And that is a constant. Why? Because they even admitted to not being able to address all needs in "one" season.

Winning now has no bearing on the fact they had a "huge" roster turnover. It goes beyond what you are listing, a single trade everyone hates, and some draft picks.

Try starting at the 2014 TDL and work forward.

Screams mini rebuild, right?

This is all that's left from 2013-14.

Forwards: Crosby, Malkin, Sutter, Kunits, Dupuis, Sutter, Adams and Bennett.

Out: Neal, Jokinen, Gibbons, Vitale, Stempniak, Glass, Pyatt, Connor, Kobasew, Sill, Jeffrey,

What came in: Hornqvist, Comeau, Downie, Spaling, Klinkhammer(and out), Perron, Arcobello(and out, Winnik, Lappierre, Goc(and out).

Defence: Letang, Maatta, Martin and Scuderi.

Out: Orpik, Niskanen, Engelland, Samuelsson, Despres and Bortuzzo

What came in: Ehrhoff, Lovejoy, Cole

Goalies:Fleury, Zatkoff

In:Greiss

Out: Vokoun

Maybe we have different meanings what mini rebuild means. They are already in one for me. That's a major roster turnover. Plus GM/Coaches.

 

[penguins2946*]

Boedker is overvalued. The asking price seems to be Sutter, Bennett, and then some. He isn't worth that much IMO.

In reality, though, JR should definitely try to acquire him.

He's definitely overvalued on HF, without a doubt. His production over the last 3 years really hasn't been that impressive (pace of 19 goals and 49 points), and those are by far his 3 best seasons. He has never hit 20 goals and has only hit 50 points once. He's an average 2nd line forward, he just fits exactly what we need for Sid's LW (I also said that about Perron, but that ended up being wrong so far). I don't see what makes him more valuable than Perron. Sutter and a small plus should be enough to bring in Boedker. I don't view Bennett as having much value, so that's why I include him there.

Do we have to list the names that went out, did not re-sign. It's pretty large you know. They certainly went through a mini rebuild this past season. And that is a constant. Why? Because they even admitted to not being able to address all needs in "one" season.

Rebuilding and retooling aren't the same thing. Rebuilding is trading older players for younger players and building through youth and draft picks. Retooling is what the Pens did. If they were trying to rebuild, they did a really crappy job at that.

 

[Shady Machine]

I mean, he had Neal for 3 seasons, and also had some pretty solid wingers over the years like Sykora, Malone, Kunitz (when Sid was out), Perron, Jokinen and Sullivan. It's not like he's been playing with scrubs his entire career. I don't think Malkin ever played for an extended period of time with subpar linemates outside of the 09-10 season. Crosby's list of wingers is a less impressive than Malkin's IMO, not including Hossa since it was like 20 games. We need to bring in another winger so that line is at its best, not because we owe Malkin to bring him in one.

Okay we aren't going to agree here. Malkin has played with a TON of scrubs. Both Crosby and Malkin have played with subpar linemates and I don't want to get into a pissing match on who has had worse wingers over the years. My point is IF they go and get Boedker for Sid, they still need another winger and I'd much prefer it to be this summer. This team needs continuity and they need to stop trying to plug key holes going into the playoffs.

Also, if you want a Perron like deal, you are going to have to trade a 1st plus to get it. I'm tired of this team moving so many picks.

 

[Shady Machine]

Do we have to list the names that went out, did not re-sign. It's pretty large you know. They certainly went through a mini rebuild this past season. And that is a constant. Why? Because they even admitted to not being able to address all needs in "one" season.

Winning now has no bearing on the fact they had a "huge" roster turnover. It goes beyond what you are listing, a single trade everyone hates, and some draft picks.

Try starting at the 2014 TDL and work forward.

Screams mini rebuild, right?

This is all that's left from 2013-14.

Forwards: Crosby, Malkin, Sutter, Kunits, Dupuis, Sutter, Adams and Bennett.

Out: Neal, Jokinen, Gibbons, Vitale, Stempniak, Glass, Pyatt, Connor, Kobasew, Sill, Jeffrey,

What came in: Hornqvist, Comeau, Downie, Spaling, Klinkhammer(and out), Perron, Arcobello(and out, Winnik, Lappierre, Goc(and out).

Defence: Letang, Maatta, Martin and Scuderi.

Out: Orpik, Niskanen, Engelland, Samuelsson, Despres and Bortuzzo

What came in: Ehrhoff, Lovejoy, Cole

Goalies:Fleury, Zatkoff

In:Greiss

Out: Vokoun

Maybe we have different meanings what mini rebuild means. They are already in one for me. That's a major roster turnover. Plus GM/Coaches.

Signing UFA's to one year deals is not a mini rebuild. A mini rebuild is a change for the future. They got older and traded more futures to try and win this past season. That's not a mini rebuild.

Neal for Hornqvist and Spaling and a 1st for Perron are the only rebuild moves. The rest was all trying to win now at the expense of the future.

 

[penguins2946*]

Okay we aren't going to agree here. Malkin has played with a TON of scrubs. Both Crosby and Malkin have played with subpar linemates and I don't want to get into a pissing match on who has had worse wingers over the years. My point is IF they go and get Boedker for Sid, they still need another winger and I'd much prefer it to be this summer. This team needs continuity and they need to stop trying to plug key holes going into the playoffs.

I know Malkin has played with a ton of scrubs, I remember Boychuk, Tangradi, Iginla on his offwing (who was a scrub in that position), Ponikarovsky and Fedetenko (not really a scrub, but not good enough to play in that spot) playing regularly with Malkin. While he has had some bad wingers, he has also had some good wingers and had our best winger for a stretch of 3 years. He's one of the highest paid players in the league, we don't owe him good wingers. We need good wingers so that line can produce, not so we can make Malkin happy.

Also, if you want a Perron like deal, you are going to have to trade a 1st plus to get it. I'm tired of this team moving so many picks.

I have no problem with trading 1st round picks as long as it isn't for a rental. If we could get Boedker for a 2016 1st, I'd do it without hesitation.

 

[Shady Machine]

Looks good to me! So, what would you anticipate the bottom six looking like? Something like...

Kunitz-Sunqvist-Bennett
Comeau-Lap-Downie

Do we resign the fourth liners? Does KK get a chance in the top 6?

Bennett is traded in Boedker deal. Kunitz is hopefully traded for a 2nd. Spaling could also be moved for a pick if you want more youth in the bottom 6. Downie walks. In my scenario, if you do that, you go hard after Soderberg:

Boedker-Crosby-Hornqvist
Perron-Malkin-Plotnikov
Sundqvist-Soderberg-Dupuis
Spaling/Wilson-Lapierre-Rust/Megna
Farnham

 

[Shady Machine]

I know Malkin has played with a ton of scrubs, I remember Boychuk, Tangradi, Iginla on his offwing (who was a scrub in that position), Ponikarovsky and Fedetenko (not really a scrub, but not good enough to play in that spot) playing regularly with Malkin. While he has had some bad wingers, he has also had some good wingers and had our best winger for a stretch of 3 years. He's one of the highest paid players in the league, we don't owe him good wingers. We need good wingers so that line can produce, not so we can make Malkin happy.

I'm not sure why you keep saying "not so we can make Malkin happy". Don't you think it's in this team's best interest to maximize their investment? How do you do that? You give them the players so they can succeed, which in turn makes your team better, and therefore, your star is happier. I never said get players for the sake of making them happy.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Don't fall into the same trap this team has for too many years.

I don't care how much they are paid or how high profile they are -- these guys aren't new-jack Lemieux/Jagr. Especially in today's league. If that was their mindset this whole time... well... that was really, really stupid of them. If the team wants to win anything they either need to give these guys help (REAL help) in order to get the most out of them or pursue a completely different angle by blowing it up. This has been their biggest failing (out of many) the last half decade or longer.

 

[realityis]

Boedker is overvalued. The asking price seems to be Sutter, Bennett, and then some. He isn't worth that much IMO.

In reality, though, JR should definitely try to acquire him.

Overvalued, possibly. He's never had elite line mates. He's crazy fast and IMO next to Sid he's a potential 65 point player. Maybe more.

In all seriousness.
A top 6 of:
BOEDKER-CROSBY-HORNQVIST
PERRON-MALKIN-PLOTNIKOV

Could be real awesome.

 

[penguins2946*]

I'm not sure why you keep saying "not so we can make Malkin happy". Don't you think it's in this team's best interest to maximize their investment? How do you do that? You give them the players so they can succeed, which in turn makes your team better, and therefore, your star is happier. I never said get players for the sake of making them happy.

Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't bring in a winger. I just don't think owing Malkin a winger is a reason we need to bring in a winger. No one is arguing we need another guy for Malkin, I just don't agree that we owe him one for making him play with crap over the years. I really don't think we owe players anything when we're paying them as much as we are. That's not saying they should be playing with Tangradi and Boychuk and they should like it because of how much money they're making.

 

[Shady Machine]

Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't bring in a winger. I just don't think owing Malkin a winger is a reason we need to bring in a winger. No one is arguing we need another guy for Malkin, I just don't agree that we owe him one for making him play with crap over the years. I really don't think we owe players anything when we're paying them as much as we are. That's not saying they should be playing with Tangradi and Boychuk and they should like it because of how much money they're making.

Alright whatever. You seem to be clinging to the word 'owe' for some reason. I won't repeat it in this conversation again because it's detracting from the value of this conversation.

Anyway, I think it's in the team's best interest to make their moves this summer. Part of the problem last year (and the last few for that matter), other than not having good enough players and injuries, was leaving too many question marks and changing parts down the stretch. Successful teams don't consistently fill major holes at the deadline like the Pens try to.

Go trade for a top 6 winger and sign another one out of Europe. Give these guys a full training camp and season to get ready for the playoffs. Leave a few bottom 6 spots for youth to fight for.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Rebuilding and retooling aren't the same thing. Rebuilding is trading older players for younger players and building through youth and draft picks. Retooling is what the Pens did. If they were trying to rebuild, they did a really crappy job at that.

They let the young guys play, save from injury and trades, they were playing.

Maatta, Bennett, Bortuzzo and Despres, and after injuries even more.

Rebuild and mini rebuild are not the same, but mini rebuild and retooling could be seen as the same.

It's still letting the old walk and infuse young.

You guys are too focused on rebuild and just skipping over the mini part.

They let the older guys walk, especially on D.

The Pens are not in a full blown out rebuild which is what the bold pertains to. And really, letting the young guys play is building through youth and draft picks.

Even more this off-season will be gone. Like I said, they are already in one, and going into season two of that mini rebuild over to youth and change.

Other than two spots the entire defense is changed more towards youth.
This season could see three youthful forwards and maybe a fourth?

Anyone of Sundqvist, Kapanen, and Rust/Wilson could see extended periods on the big squad to go with Bennett if he isn't traded.

Mini means mini, and youth is being infused.

 

[realityis]

Forward lines. Say if the Pens got Boedker and signed Plotnikov, them that's a capable and improved top 6.
The focus on secondary offence. Soderberg good for 40pts. Play Kapanen on the right side.
This team needs a Downie type player then.

If the cap is at the 71 million. And if Dupuis is back I would be happy with something like this.

Another player I'd like here is Marcus Foligno.

BOEDKER-CROSBY-HORNQVIST
PERRON-MALKIN-PLOTNIKOV
DUPUIS/FOLIGNO-SODERBERG-KAPANEN
DOWNIE-SUDQVIST-COMEAU

isolates both Kapanen and Sudvist and gives them the opportunity to succeed at the NHL level.

 

[Shady Machine]

They let the young guys play, save from injury and trades, they were playing.

Maatta, Bennett, Bortuzzo and Despres, and after injuries even more.

Rebuild and mini rebuild are not the same, but mini rebuild and retooling could be seen as the same.

It's still letting the old walk and infuse young.

You guys are too focused on rebuild and just skipping over the mini part.

They let the older guys walk, especially on D.

The Pens are not in a full blown out rebuild which is what the bold pertains to. And really, letting the young guys play is building through youth and draft picks.

Even more this off-season will be gone. Like I said, they are already in one, and going into season two of that mini rebuild over to youth and change.

Other than two spots the entire defense is changed more towards youth.
This season could see three youthful forwards and maybe a fourth?

Anyone of Sundqvist, Kapanen, and Rust/Wilson could see extended periods on the big squad to go with Bennett if he isn't traded.

Mini means mini, and youth is being infused.

Despres (23) for Lovejoy (31). Adams played 70 games. 2nd and 4th traded for Winnik. Those 3 things don't scream mini rebuild. I think we just need to agree to disagree on definition of mini rebuild and move on.

 

[sovietsanta87]

Kunitz and Dupuis for Hossa. Lets get crazy

*puts pants back on

 

[penguins2946*]

As I said in the other thread, we can't play Kapanen on the 3rd line unless we have a playmaking 3C and Kapanen wouldn't be the primary offensive player on that line. We ruined Bennett by putting him with offensively challenged players and expecting him to carry it. Do Sutter and Bennett for Boedker, Kunitz for anything and then sign Plotnikov or Tikhonov or some other FA to play with Malkin and Perron. Re-sign Comeau and Lapierre, and fill out the bottom-6 with young players (Wilson, Sundqvist and Rust) to complement Comeau, Lapierre, Dupuis and Spaling. End up with something like:

Boedker-Crosby-Hornqvist
Perron-Malkin-Plotnikov/Tikhonov/other FA
Comeau-Spaling-Dupuis
Wilson-Lapierre-Sundqvist

The glaring hole in that lineup is the 3C spot, I don't think Spaling is good enough for that spot. I don't see a point handing out anything other than a 1 year deal to a FA because of Sundqvist.

 

[realityis]

As I said in the other thread, we can't play Kapanen on the 3rd line unless we have a playmaking 3C and Kapanen wouldn't be the primary offensive player on that line. We ruined Bennett by putting him with offensively challenged players and expecting him to carry it. Do Sutter and Bennett for Boedker, Kunitz for anything and then sign Plotnikov or Tikhonov or some other FA to play with Malkin and Perron. Re-sign Comeau and Lapierre, and fill out the bottom-6 with young players (Wilson, Sundqvist and Rust) to complement Comeau, Lapierre, Dupuis and Spaling. End up with something like:

Boedker-Crosby-Hornqvist
Perron-Malkin-Plotnikov/Tikhonov/other FA
Comeau-Spaling-Dupuis
Wilson-Lapierre-Sundqvist

The glaring hole in that lineup is the 3C spot, I don't think Spaling is good enough for that spot. I don't see a point handing out anything other than a 1 year deal to a FA because of Sundqvist.

Soderberg is 6'3 and listed at 216lbs. Put up 44 points in Boston. Playing Kapanen on his right side isn't going to "ruin" his development. Soderberg himself is a good player.

 

[billybudd]

BOEDKER-CROSBY-HORNQVIST
PERRON-MALKIN-PLOTNIKOV

There's a real deficiency in speed on that second line, but, short of moving Perron back out in favor of "Mr X who skates faster" (seems like it would be very difficult), I'm not real sure I have any answer for what to do about it.

I'd also very much like to leave Kapanen in the AHL for another year, no matter what he looks like. Easier to get one's fundamentals right in the AHL, than rush a guy into the NHL and hope he sorts out critical flaws on the fly there. The latter rarely works out.