Speculation: 2015 NHL Deadline Rumor Thread II

[lancer247]

imo the biggest problem the flyers have on defense is that all the defensemen seem to be really one dimensional. Some guys can move the puck and some guys can defend but most can't do both. The nhl has gotten so overcoached that one dimensional guys can be easily taken advantage of. The flyers have similar problems at forward. You can hide a couple of these guys but not the amount the flyers have. It is one of the reasons there is a big discrepancy between their home and road records. It's easier to play matchup at home.

The flyers need a strong influx of two way players at both forward and defense especially on the defense. Only the top guys excel at both ends but there doesn't need to be such a huge drop off in skills. As an example guy like morin only needs to learn to move the puck a little so as not to be taken advantage of; he doesn't need to lead the rush.

agree 100%.

 

[JustJim]

agree 100%.

I agree with these points as well. The Flyers also must find a better coaching staff. Berube & Co. are simply awful! How many times this year have the Flyers been penalised for too many men on the ice. That is not a player's mistake, it is a coaching mistake.

 

[Hiesenberg]

I'm all about keeping MDZ, but right now, you have to think somebody wants to try to steal him away. He produces and is cheap and is a RFA.

 

[Flyotes]

20 scouts/mgmt guys repping 14 teams for FLA/TOR tonight: MIN (2), LA, MTL (5), CHI (2), EDM, BOS, STL, OTT, WPG, CAR, DAL, VAN, COL, NAS

All the scouts are going to volunteer to scout the Las Vegas team, if that comes to reality.

Uh, yeah, I really need to see that kid.

 

[Rebels57]

I'm all about keeping MDZ, but right now, you have to think somebody wants to try to steal him away. He produces and is cheap and is a RFA.

I'm torn. If someone offered us a top 20 pick for him I would probably bite but MDZ is only 24 years old and we are going to need SOME experienced defensemen that are fully developed to man our blueline as we usher in the prospects. It might as well be a guy in his mid 20s. If MDZ was closer to 30 i'd be more inclined to want to move him but he has a lot of good years left at this point. I doubt someone would even offer a 1st so I think turning down a 2nd is an easy decision.

No one should be surprised by Del Zottos play. He's played far more good hockey in his career than bad. New York gave up on him too soon as he never had the trust of Vigneault and he was buried by one of the deepest defenses in the league in Nashville and never fit Trotz system.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

I'm torn. If someone offered us a top 20 pick for him I would probably bite but MDZ is only 24 years old and we are going to need SOME experienced defensemen that are fully developed to man our blueline as we usher in the prospects. It might as well be a guy in his mid 20s. If MDZ was closer to 30 i'd be more inclined to want to move him but he has a lot of good years left at this point. I doubt someone would even offer a 1st so I think turning down a 2nd is an easy decision.

No one should be surprised by Del Zottos play. He's played far more good hockey in his career than bad. New York gave up on him too soon as he never had the trust of Vigneault and he was buried by one of the deepest defenses in the league in Nashville and never fit Trotz system.

I don't really understand that logic. It is one thing if there is no intent to bring him back. Then fine, get what you can. But if the option is a top 20 pick (presumably something like 13-20) or bring back MDZ, why wouldn't you bring back the guy that you know is an NHL player? I don't understand why a chance at a guy that might maybe possible be as good as MDZ is somehow more valuable than MDZ. We aren't talking about an aging vet. We aren't talking about a huge cap hit.

We aren't talking about a guy that isn't going to be brought back. We are talking about an under 25 year old defenseman that can be had for relatively cheap and we KNOW is an NHL caliber defenseman. I'm fine trading MDZ, but I don't think it is smart to trade him for just a pick (which in all likelihood would not be top 20 but would be 20-30, if that).

 

[PALE PWNR]

I don't really understand that logic. It is one thing if there is no intent to bring him back. Then fine, get what you can. But if the option is a top 20 pick (presumably something like 13-20) or bring back MDZ, why wouldn't you bring back the guy that you know is an NHL player? I don't understand why a chance at a guy that might maybe possible be as good as MDZ is somehow more valuable than MDZ. We aren't talking about an aging vet. We aren't talking about a huge cap hit.

We aren't talking about a guy that isn't going to be brought back. We are talking about an under 25 year old defenseman that can be had for relatively cheap and we KNOW is an NHL caliber defenseman. I'm fine trading MDZ, but I don't think it is smart to trade him for just a pick (which in all likelihood would not be top 20 but would be 20-30, if that).

I don't get it either. MDZ should be priority #1 in the off-season. He's part of the solution to this teams problems.

There's so many people who have this mindset that the mystery box that is the 1st round is so much better then players currently in the NHL. Do you have a chance at getting a player better then MDZ, sure, you have a much larger chance of getting a bust as well AND you won't even know it for years and years. Don't understand the obsession with picks and prospects. The majority of whom will never pan out to be NHL caliber players.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

I don't get it either. MDZ should be priority #1 in the off-season. He's part of the solution to this teams problems.

There's so many people who have this mindset that the mystery box that is the 1st round is so much better then players currently in the NHL. Do you have a chance at getting a player better then MDZ, sure, you have a much larger chance of getting a bust as well AND you won't even know it for years and years. Don't understand the obsession with picks and prospects. The majority of whom will never pan out to be NHL caliber players.

Exactly. I mean, again, I'm not necessarily opposed to trading him, but for a late first rounder, I don't think it makes sense. Same thing with trading Coburn (really, moreso). A late first rounder, unless you get really lucky, is at best going to top out at a 2nd pair guy. Yes, it is possible that he turns out to be a #1 guy, but if you are looking at it from probabilities, your best case is 2nd pair guy. And that is if everything goes the right way. Same thing with a forward, your best case is 2nd line guy if everything goes perfect. There's always a chance he pans out to that, or better, but there is the same chance he busts.

If we are making trades it shouldn't be lateral moves with a slight chance of improvement. Younger doesn't always mean better and you don't win a Cup by having the best contracts. If someone offers you a prospect for MDZ that is close to the NHL and looks like he's going to improve...ok, that makes some sense. But if someone offers you a late first rounder, you are looking at five years down the road maybe possibly having a guy that might be able to play on the second pair. It doesn't make sense.

If we are talking about trading Streit (assuming we are out of the playoffs), then ok. He's getting old and right now his value is pretty high. Deal him for a pick or two and that's fine because he's not going to be around long enough to really help this team win anything. If we are talking about Grossmann, trade him for anything. Schultz? Same thing. CC? Same thing. Yesterday I said if we are in the hunt we should keep Coburn/Streit/Schenn off the table, which I still believe. But I'd add MDZ to that list whether we are in or out of the hunt. If someone wants him that bad and is going to overpay, ok then we can talk. But don't trade him just to hoard picks.

 

[BillDineen]

I posted this in in the Trade Board thread, but it has been a long time since the Flyers actually had a cost-controlled d man to resign (I think Coburn's two year extension in 2010). I for one and tired of all these UFA or pending UFAs on d getting paid too much for what they bring. I do not want to see MDZ traded.

 

[Tripod]

Exactly. I mean, again, I'm not necessarily opposed to trading him, but for a late first rounder, I don't think it makes sense. Same thing with trading Coburn (really, moreso). A late first rounder, unless you get really lucky, is at best going to top out at a 2nd pair guy. Yes, it is possible that he turns out to be a #1 guy, but if you are looking at it from probabilities, your best case is 2nd pair guy. And that is if everything goes the right way. Same thing with a forward, your best case is 2nd line guy if everything goes perfect. There's always a chance he pans out to that, or better, but there is the same chance he busts.

If we are making trades it shouldn't be lateral moves with a slight chance of improvement. Younger doesn't always mean better and you don't win a Cup by having the best contracts. If someone offers you a prospect for MDZ that is close to the NHL and looks like he's going to improve...ok, that makes some sense. But if someone offers you a late first rounder, you are looking at five years down the road maybe possibly having a guy that might be able to play on the second pair. It doesn't make sense.

If we are talking about trading Streit (assuming we are out of the playoffs), then ok. He's getting old and right now his value is pretty high. Deal him for a pick or two and that's fine because he's not going to be around long enough to really help this team win anything. If we are talking about Grossmann, trade him for anything. Schultz? Same thing. CC? Same thing. Yesterday I said if we are in the hunt we should keep Coburn/Streit/Schenn off the table, which I still believe. But I'd add MDZ to that list whether we are in or out of the hunt. If someone wants him that bad and is going to overpay, ok then we can talk. But don't trade him just to hoard picks.

Here is the difference though.

MDZ is cost controlled and we can negitiated a good contract with him right now...or offer him a QO and he have him for cheap next year. So worst case, we have him cheap on one year, or fair for multiple years(assuming Hextall does a fair contract with him)

For Coburn...it gets tricky. He is a UFA next summer...and we have no idea what he wants for a contract and HE controls the asking price for the most part...not us. So then the question is, what are you prepared to offer Coburn for a contract that starts when he is at the age of 31.

If he wanted the Methot deal...then for sure I would keep him. If he wants 6 years at 6 million per...not a chance.

Trading him now gets us a pick in a better draft...and a sooner draft than if we trade him next year. So that is 1 year closer to G, Jakes and Simmers prime years.

Plus, with him having an extra year on his contract, we should be able to demand a better return as he is not a rental and they acquiring team gets him for 2 playoff runs.

If I could get a really good deal for him...a 1st + a prospect we want...then I pull the trigger. If it's only a 1st, then I probably wait since we can get a 1st for him next year anyways and I see if we can sign him to a team friendly deal.

Re-signing him DOES help us. It gives us a right sided top pairing dman to play with one of the kids so they are not teamed up with one another right away.

Who knows, maybe Morin comes into camp and is a monster and we pair them up as a true, shutdown pairing. Big, strong, fast skating guys to pair against teams top lines...focus on defense 1st.

He is not good eneough as a MUST KEEP. But he is good enough to only move for a good deal.

As you can tell...I am torn. Points can be made on both sides on if he should be moved or not. But we all agree, other guys should be moved out as well.

I guess the good part is, with Kimmo coming back, we HAVE to make a move. Let's see if it is the right one.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Here is the difference though.

MDZ is cost controlled and we can negitiated a good contract with him right now...or offer him a QO and he have him for cheap next year. So worst case, we have him cheap on one year, or fair for multiple years(assuming Hextall does a fair contract with him)

For Coburn...it gets tricky. He is a UFA next summer...and we have no idea what he wants for a contract and HE controls the asking price for the most part...not us. So then the question is, what are you prepared to offer Coburn for a contract that starts when he is at the age of 31.

If he wanted the Methot deal...then for sure I would keep him. If he wants 6 years at 6 million per...not a chance.

Trading him now gets us a pick in a better draft...and a sooner draft than if we trade him next year. So that is 1 year closer to G, Jakes and Simmers prime years.

Plus, with him having an extra year on his contract, we should be able to demand a better return as he is not a rental and they acquiring team gets him for 2 playoff runs.

If I could get a really good deal for him...a 1st + a prospect we want...then I pull the trigger. If it's only a 1st, then I probably wait since we can get a 1st for him next year anyways and I see if we can sign him to a team friendly deal.

Re-signing him DOES help us. It gives us a right sided top pairing dman to play with one of the kids so they are not teamed up with one another right away.

Who knows, maybe Morin comes into camp and is a monster and we pair them up as a true, shutdown pairing. Big, strong, fast skating guys to pair against teams top lines...focus on defense 1st.

He is not good eneough as a MUST KEEP. But he is good enough to only move for a good deal.

As you can tell...I am torn. Points can be made on both sides on if he should be moved or not. But we all agree, other guys should be moved out as well.

I guess the good part is, with Kimmo coming back, we HAVE to make a move. Let's see if it is the right one.

If we are not in the playoff chase at the deadline, I'm totally in favor of dealing Coburn, but I wouldn't trade him for just a first rounder (unless for some reason it was very high first that could net us a McDavid...which obviously is not going to happen). I don't know what my "bottom dollar" deal is on Coburn in terms of a trade or a new contract, but I know there was talk at one point of Coburn for Eberle...which is something that I would do depending on what else was involved (not sure who would add to that and what would need to be added to get it done). The "off the table" remark was for if we are in the hunt for the playoffs. I'm just not a fan of trading established players with value to this team for picks or questionable prospects.

Draft picks are great but at the end of the day when trading a guy like Coburn you are pretty much hoping that the guy you draft turns out to be Coburn. It doesn't make sense to me, unless he's on his way out the door, to make a deal like that where it is at absolute best a lateral move with a teeny tiny chance of improvement, and at worst absolutely nothing and you just gave up one of your most reliable defenders.

 

[bb12]

Exactly. I mean, again, I'm not necessarily opposed to trading him, but for a late first rounder, I don't think it makes sense. Same thing with trading Coburn (really, moreso). A late first rounder, unless you get really lucky, is at best going to top out at a 2nd pair guy. Yes, it is possible that he turns out to be a #1 guy, but if you are looking at it from probabilities, your best case is 2nd pair guy. And that is if everything goes the right way. Same thing with a forward, your best case is 2nd line guy if everything goes perfect. There's always a chance he pans out to that, or better, but there is the same chance he bust

To me the biggest reason of trading Coburn is the return vs the log jam. We have 9 D on the team this year plus 3-4 waiting in the wings VERY close to ready. If we are going to trim it down to make room for the likes of Ghost, Morin, Hagg and Sanhiem we need to move bodies. Not to mention we need to trim down to give the likes of Schenn and MDZ full time. Out of our 9 4 are on 1 year deals (CC, MDZ, Shultz and Kimmo) Great.

but the problem is cap. We are stuck offensively. We cant do a thing. we have too many bad contracts. We are stuck with Vinny, Umby and AMac. Trading Coburn and replacing him with someone on a 1 year deal or a prospect saves 4 mil. That can be used to help our offensive depth seeing as we all hope that we have 4 dmen that will save our struggles back there.

Does trading fix the problem no. But a 1st rounder in a deep draft is better then having to cough up 6 mil to pay him or lose him for 0. That 1st rounder also gives us a trade chip.

Personally, I'd use that 1st to get rid of Amac, umby or Vinny. Just to help this team.

 

[Tripod]

If we are not in the playoff chase at the deadline, I'm totally in favor of dealing Coburn, but I wouldn't trade him for just a first rounder (unless for some reason it was very high first that could net us a McDavid...which obviously is not going to happen). I don't know what my "bottom dollar" deal is on Coburn in terms of a trade or a new contract, but I know there was talk at one point of Coburn for Eberle...which is something that I would do depending on what else was involved (not sure who would add to that and what would need to be added to get it done). The "off the table" remark was for if we are in the hunt for the playoffs. I'm just not a fan of trading established players with value to this team for picks or questionable prospects.

Draft picks are great but at the end of the day when trading a guy like Coburn you are pretty much hoping that the guy you draft turns out to be Coburn. It doesn't make sense to me, unless he's on his way out the door, to make a deal like that where it is at absolute best a lateral move with a teeny tiny chance of improvement, and at worst absolutely nothing and you just gave up one of your most reliable defenders.

And I think that's why you need 2 assets coming back for him if 1 is a 1st rounder.

We are going to need some experience on D, so why not a great skating, right side playing guy with size who can play on the top pairing?

But again...it depends on the offer for him...and what he wants in his next contract.

 

[Curufinwe]

To me the biggest reason of trading Coburn is the return vs the log jam. We have 9 D on the team this year plus 3-4 waiting in the wings VERY close to ready. If we are going to trim it down to make room for the likes of Ghost, Morin, Hagg and Sanhiem we need to move bodies. Not to mention we need to trim down to give the likes of Schenn and MDZ full time. Out of our 9 4 are on 1 year deals (CC, MDZ, Shultz and Kimmo) Great.

but the problem is cap. We are stuck offensively. We cant do a thing. we have too many bad contracts. We are stuck with Vinny, Umby and AMac. Trading Coburn and replacing him with someone on a 1 year deal or a prospect saves 4 mil. That can be used to help our offensive depth seeing as we all hope that we have 4 dmen that will save our struggles back there.

Does trading fix the problem no. But a 1st rounder in a deep draft is better then having to cough up 6 mil to pay him or lose him for 0. That 1st rounder also gives us a trade chip.

Personally, I'd use that 1st to get rid of Amac, umby or Vinny. Just to help this team.

Giving away a top pick this year to dump a contract would be madness.

 

[flyershockey]

It's not just about trading Coburn for a guy who hopes to be as good as him one day. It's about acquiring assets for the future when the team hopes to be competitive again. Coburn is a soon to be 30 year old defenseman, whose level of play, at best, has stagnated over the last two years. He's also looks like another defenseman that figures to get overpaid because the free agent market is so devoid of talent. Most around here think the Flyers are a good 3-4 years away from really making a serious run. If that's the case, then Coburn will already be on the downswing by the time they're ready to compete, whereas the assets acquired in a trade for him could very well be pieces to the puzzle.

On top of that, Coburn's the last type of defenseman that I want partnered with our young guys when they come up. Those guys need partners that play simple, reliable games. That doesn't exactly describe Coburn who has spent the majority of his career as a Flyer riding shotgun/getting babysat by Kimmo Timonen.

If a team comes calling with a late first and a top 100 prospect, the Flyers would be foolish not to jump all over it.

 

[PALE PWNR]

Giving away a top pick this year to dump a contract would be madness.

Depends on what we are getting back

 

[bb12]

Giving away a top pick this year to dump a contract would be madness.

If Coburn got us say the 27th pick. Would you take a 2nd for that pick plus on of Vinny/Amac/Umberger?

 

[TCTC]

And I think that's why you need 2 assets coming back for him if 1 is a 1st rounder.

We are going to need some experience on D, so why not a great skating, right side playing guy with size who can play on the top pairing?

But again...it depends on the offer for him...and what he wants in his next contract.

The MacDonald contract doesn't help in that situation. Because I can't imagine Coburn would except any less than what MacDonald gets.
So I guess 6 million is a realistic number.

 

[Curufinwe]

If Coburn got us say the 27th pick. Would you take a 2nd for that pick plus on of Vinny/Amac/Umberger?

Perhaps. Dropping from late 20s to the 40s isn't such a big deal. I actually meant to say top 10 pick.

 

[PALE PWNR]

If Coburn got us say the 27th pick. Would you take a 2nd for that pick plus on of Vinny/Amac/Umberger?

Don't think a team would do that. I think you could get a team to take one with a late 1st added but you aren't getting a 2nd back. A 4th 5th? Future Considerations? Nothing of any kind of value. Thats a huge albatross.

 

[deadhead]

Did you see any difference with Coburn in or out of the lineup. He's simply not the same player without Timonen, which tells me he's a marginal top 4 defenseman, i.e., McDonald, a guy who can play well in the right circumstances but isn't a guy who makes other players better. And we know how grossly McDonald got overpaid and how it hurts the team going forward, you want to overpay a 31 year old defensemen for his declining years?

I'll take whatever I can get for Coburn, he's not a key player, and he's not a player with upside (L Schenn), he's just another veteran defensemen, of which we have plenty. If he was 25, you could hope his game might match his skills, but at 30, he is what he's going to be.

As far as MDZ, the question is all mental, he has the skills of a solid top 4 D-man, but the brain of a labador retriever. Can he be coached up or will he be the 10 games look like Tarzan, 10 games play like Cheetah for the rest of his career.

 

[BrimFullofAsham45]

L. Schenn has upside?

L. Schenn's upside is a serviceable #5

 

[achdumeingute]

but the problem is cap.

Personally, I'd use that 1st to get rid of Amac, umby or Vinny. Just to help this team.

I really fail to see how the cap issues generated by these players is a big issue.

There is NOBODY available that we can sign that will truly fill our gaps (#1d, #1 lw) that will hit the market.

Money/cap is useless if you can't spend it. Only Ed should care, as he signs the checks.

It sucks that Lecav has been not worth 4.5, but who else could we have chased to fill that role? the year after, Stastny and BRichards (CHI is better fit though) maybe? There are no defenseman available for help.

 

[achdumeingute]

L. Schenn has upside?

L. Schenn's upside is a serviceable #5

he's younger and still cost controlled for 1 yr (I think). Schenn is ok...

if we are going to sign Coby for 3 yrs, max 5.5m per, then we don't deal him. If we are not going to do this, get something for him...as simple as that.

 

[achdumeingute]

If Coburn got us say the 27th pick. Would you take a 2nd for that pick plus on of Vinny/Amac/Umberger?

God no. Amac is not THAT bad.

This team has 7 left feet defenseman. one pretty good all around in MS, and Dr jeckyl MDZ. 2 pairs of D we roll are going to have 2 defenseman doing something they are not good at, and bad results are going to happen.