2015-2016 Statistical And Underlying Metrics Thread

Whileee

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now the second worst special teams team, not the worst:
CfiWsjIWcAAO1K7.jpg

Interesting that CHI is at the bottom of the barrel on the graph, yet CHI is near the top of the table in terms of PP%.

Any thoughts about the concept of "efficiency" in terms of converting xGF/60 into actual goals? I guess having Kane, Panarin and Keith on the PP might have something to do with it.
 

Aavco Cup

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Interesting that CHI is at the bottom of the barrel on the graph, yet CHI is near the top of the table in terms of PP%.

Any thoughts about the concept of "efficiency" in terms of converting xGF/60 into actual goals? I guess having Kane, Panarin and Keith on the PP might have something to do with it.

They get to play 5 games against us? How much better would our PP stats be if we played 5 games against ourselves? :sarcasm:
 

garret9

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Interesting that CHI is at the bottom of the barrel on the graph, yet CHI is near the top of the table in terms of PP%.

Any thoughts about the concept of "efficiency" in terms of converting xGF/60 into actual goals? I guess having Kane, Panarin and Keith on the PP might have something to do with it.

DTMAboutHeart's xG model includes shooter conversion history so I don't think it does.

Corsica's doesn't though, but this graph is DTMAH's.
 

Whileee

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DTMAboutHeart's xG model includes shooter conversion history so I don't think it does.

Corsica's doesn't though, but this graph is DTMAH's.

Interesting.

I suppose having Kane and Panarin, or Ovie, or Benn / Seguin / Klingberg on the PP improves the scoring efficiency, beyond expected goals.

Perhaps highly skilled players like Connor and Ehlers will improve the efficiency of goal-scoring.
 

garret9

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Interesting.

I suppose having Kane and Panarin, or Ovie, or Benn / Seguin / Klingberg on the PP improves the scoring efficiency, beyond expected goals.

Perhaps highly skilled players like Connor and Ehlers will improve the efficiency of goal-scoring.

No. Since the model already expects those players to convert goals like they do.
 

garret9

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So Chicago is lucky? STL too? :dunno:

Special team performance is small samples, which means large variance. It's not impossible.

Look how teams will swing year to year top to bottom of league often (ex: ANA PP this and last year). You'd be silly not to think that variance is not a huge factor.

Another factor missed is that they faced below average netminding in a larger proportion of their games, as opposition goalie talent is not included in xG models.
 

Aavco Cup

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PCS getting some 30 thoughts love. Interesting views from traditional scouts

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-panthers-chart-bold-new-direction/

In December, the Panthers hired Cam Lawrence and Josh Weissbock on a part-time basis. Lawrence, who once used the Twitter handle @MoneyPuck_, is Chief Financial Officer of a private company. Weissbock works for Canada’s Department of Defence. Smart people and hockey fans, they worked to create a drafting model called “Prospect Cohort Success†(PCS).

Basic explanation of PCS: Determine a prospect’s size, point production, age and what league he plays in. Then, cross-reference it with all available data to determine historical comparables. The idea is to say, “Okay, we’re looking at an 18-year-old, 6-foot-5 kid with 68 points in 65 games in the OHL. What can we reasonably expect him to do?†The model goes through history to find any/all similar player(s), and how they fared as a professional. It is a fascinating in-depth project, an attempt to decipher how pre-NHL production explains NHL production. I’ve read about it and am intrigued.

The Panthers plan to implement it in their drafting process.

According to some scouts on other clubs (none of Florida’s would discuss it), Lawrence recently met with the Panthers’ guys. When I heard this, I assumed this summit would be a disaster, but was pleasantly surprised to learn things were respectful and professional — from both sides.

What no one seems to be able to answer, though, is: who makes the final call? Their recent drafts were run by director of player personnel Scott Luce. Will the decision remain his? Or, do they go off the PCS list?

“The question is,†according to an executive from another club, “Is this analytics with scouting? Or, is it scouting with analytics? Big difference.â€

From what I understand, Lawrence/Weissbock do recognize the limitations with their data. Heights and weights can be unreliable, especially from overseas. (Basketball suffers the same problem.) Some leagues don’t have a ton of history. One example is Russia’s junior circuit, the MHL, in existence since 2009-10. There is a prospect from that league who might be available in the first round when Florida is picking: German Rubtsov. It’d be a mistake to make a yes/no decision on him without personal visits.

Despite that, word is Florida’s current scouts are wary of where this is going. They are skeptical and feel they will be either let go or encouraged to pursue alternate employment. There will be demand for their services.

It’s a funny time around the NHL. More and more owners use analytics in their “regular†businesses, so they are open to it in hockey. But, even those who consider themselves analytics aficionados fight a battle over whose metrics really work.
 

ps241

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interesting post @Aavoc Cup

The reality is the process of getting results out of drafted 18 year olds seems like it has room to improve so why not augment traditional scouting with analytic options. I think you would have to be an idiot to not keep an open mind to all options especially considering cost to potential benefit.
 

Grind

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Florida would be foolish to axe it's scouting g staff and go solely off PCs. The real edge will be combining the two.

That being said if a team needs to cut costs this would be an extremely effective method.

Still likely out draft many teams spending far more money.

But the real edge will be effectively combining the two.
 

raideralex99

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Special team performance is small samples, which means large variance. It's not impossible.

Look how teams will swing year to year top to bottom of league often (ex: ANA PP this and last year). You'd be silly not to think that variance is not a huge factor.

Another factor missed is that they faced below average netminding in a larger proportion of their games, as opposition goalie talent is not included in xG models.

The Ducks PP improved when Paul MacLean took over.
Coaching does matter!
Just look at the Penguins ... after firing their HC ... they have the best record and that's with Malkin missing half the games.
 

garret9

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As a bit of an insider, the answer to Friedman is PCS is likely used to give a general idea of who to look at, and scouting looks at whether or not the player is likely to over/under perform their PCS.
 

Grind

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As a bit of an insider, the answer to Friedman is PCS is likely used to give a general idea of who to look at, and scouting looks at whether or not the player is likely to over/under perform their PCS.

A world where every team is doing this and PCs/similar basic projections are standard practice and public information is the world I want to live in.
 

Whileee

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As a bit of an insider, the answer to Friedman is PCS is likely used to give a general idea of who to look at, and scouting looks at whether or not the player is likely to over/under perform their PCS.

Amazed that such an elementary approach even needs discussion. Size and scoring adjusted for league and a few other variables would seem to be the bare minimum of statistical data that NHL teams would use as part of their evaluation. I think the problem has been not taking time to put together the databases and over-reliance on scouts' subjective projections, often using the wrong criteria for evaluation. Sometime I'll share my observations of the scouting process of an NHL team, based on observing him go through rankings on his team's program ( on his laptop, next to me on a long flight). Hint: Steel seems "meh" in his assessment.
 

scelaton

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Is PCS winning the internal battle?


Fascinating.
PCS is clearly ascendant in Fla, but it sounds more like a clash of cultures (when there should have been a slow merging).
Lawrence and Weissbock are clearly smart, articulate, forceful and analytical but likely clashed with a very successful but traditional NHL scout. I doubt Luce ever had a chance. After all, all he can do is draft well.
 
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Aavco Cup

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Fascinating.
PCS is clearly ascendant in Fla, but it sounds more like a clash of cultures.
Lawrence and Weissbock are clearly smart, articulate, forceful and analytical but likely clashed with a very successful but traditional NHL scout. I doubt Luce ever had a chance. After all, all he can do is draft well.

Were the draft successful mostly because they were normally picking early? One thing that the owners would have access to is past team draft lists, not just the players they picked. They probably had PCS analyze the entire list(s)
 

scelaton

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Were the draft successful mostly because they were normally picking early? One thing that the owners would have access to is past team draft lists, not just the players they picked. They probably had PCS analyze the entire list(s)

Hard to know and I admittedly know very little about Luce. But I do know that when a disruptive technology breaks into an established business, there are always casualties.
Oftentimes, new technology relegates the old ways to the dust bins of history; but oftentimes the new technology itself is flawed and later replaced by a different technology that works.

Here are some quotes from Luce in 2014 about analytics, which he claimed to have adopted as part of his player analysis:

“Scouting's becoming more of a science, but, in its essence, it is an art.â€

"You still need to study the masters and rely on natural talent."

“Early on, everyone is strong-minded and thinks they have all the answers,†he said, “but after 15 years scouting, one of the biggest lessons I've learned is the value of experience.

http://www.lfpress.com/2014/06/23/l...uses-analytics-to-help-with-selection-process
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Were the draft successful mostly because they were normally picking early? One thing that the owners would have access to is past team draft lists, not just the players they picked. They probably had PCS analyze the entire list(s)

Just a quick scan of their recent drafts shows that they had a couple of drafts with a large number of high picks and a couple of others with very high picks. They haven't had many hits outside the first round.

2010 they got Gudbranson 3 OA, Bjugstad and Howden in the 1st, Petrovic in the 2nd, plus 2 other 2nd round picks.

2011 Huberdeau, 3 OA in the 1st and Trocheck in the 3rd.

2012 Matheson in the 1st.

2013 Barkov in the 1st, 2 OA.

2014 Ekblad in the 1st, 1 OA.

That is one 1st OA, one 2nd OA and two 3rd OA. There is one 2nd rounder and one 3rd rounder on that list. Especially in the 3 most recent drafts there are still some possible wins from rounds 2 and later but so far that is very little success outside the first round. Their results later in the first round are spotty at best.

They had accumulated 13 picks in 2010, 6 in the first two rounds and 10 picks in 2011, 3 in the first two rounds. Those 2 drafts have netted them 5 key members of their team.

I also looked at the 4 preceding drafts for 10 years total. 2009 they got Kulikov in the 1st. 2008, Bartkowski in the 7th. 2007, Keaton Ellerby 10th OA. 2006, Frolik 10 th OA. That's all they got from those 4 drafts.

That doesn't look like great drafting to me. It was a great job accumulating picks and it was decent drafting in the early first round.

Edit: In 10 years that is just 3 players outside the first round. There are quite a few 1st and 2nd round picks that look like busts although 1 or 2 of those may still pan out.
 

Aavco Cup

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Just a quick scan of their recent drafts shows that they had a couple of drafts with a large number of high picks and a couple of others with very high picks. They haven't had many hits outside the first round.

2010 they got Gudbranson 3 OA, Bjugstad and Howden in the 1st, Petrovic in the 2nd, plus 2 other 2nd round picks.

2011 Huberdeau, 3 OA in the 1st and Trocheck in the 3rd.

2012 Matheson in the 1st.

2013 Barkov in the 1st, 2 OA.

2014 Ekblad in the 1st, 1 OA.

That is one 1st OA, one 2nd OA and two 3rd OA. There is one 2nd rounder and one 3rd rounder on that list. Especially in the 3 most recent drafts there are still some possible wins from rounds 2 and later but so far that is very little success outside the first round. Their results later in the first round are spotty at best.

They had accumulated 13 picks in 2010, 6 in the first two rounds and 10 picks in 2011, 3 in the first two rounds. Those 2 drafts have netted them 5 key members of their team.

I also looked at the 4 preceding drafts for 10 years total. 2009 they got Kulikov in the 1st. 2008, Bartkowski in the 7th. 2007, Keaton Ellerby 10th OA. 2006, Frolik 10 th OA. That's all they got from those 4 drafts.

That doesn't look like great drafting to me. It was a great job accumulating picks and it was decent drafting in the early first round.

Edit: In 10 years that is just 3 players outside the first round. There are quite a few 1st and 2nd round picks that look like busts although 1 or 2 of those may still pan out.

Crouse?
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Crouse hasn't played a game in the NHL yet. I looked at the players who have made their current team look so good. When and if Crouse makes it he will be another successful 1st round pick, following the pattern. So far he looks promising but there are no guarantees. He fits the mold of most of their recent picks. All but Trochek are big, either tall or heavy or both and pretty highly skilled too.
 

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