2015-16 Tampa Bay Lightning Training Camp

[Werewolf]

Damn all of you for making such compelling arguments. That's why I love it here!

I'm a stubborn one though. I really don't want to see Carle lost with no compensation. I'd rather just keep him until cap space becomes "that much" of a bigger deal.

Half the problem with Carle is the fact that he's got to babysit Sustr every time he is on the ice. People forget how bad things were on the back end that Carle was welcomed back like a conquering hero. He didn't help much but he made things better.

Carle's biggest problem is exactly what Meszaro's deal was. He is a "Robin" defenseman who needs a Batman to be the anchor of the defensive pairing. Back when he was in Philly he had guys like Pronger and Timmonen to watch his hide and Carle was able to jump in offensively more often than he does here. He had someone to mop up his mistakes. And truth be told, Coburn, Garrison and even Hedman at times all struggle to be a defensive anchor. But the offense we have was/is so good at puck retreival and possession that it limited the amount of work these guys had to do and they functioned excellently as top 4 guys. Carle is seldom put into those positions to succeed. Usually it was the Toews line and Sustr as his buddy on defense and we all cringed in fear.

If we utilize Carle to his strengths and don't ask so much of him I guarantee he would not only play better but at least one team might actually consider wanting him. He was awesome on the powerplay in Philly but then again Coop's gonna Coop when it comes to the powerplay. I'm no expert but I can promise you if Carle wasn't Sustr's babysitter he would be able to do better.

This is true.

So with today being the day we have to know who stays with the team I’m really curies about what we’ll do.

On forward I’d say we have 2 spots open on the 4th line with Boyle + possible healthy scratch and we have five forwards: Brown, Paquette, Vladdy, JAM and Angelidis, now Angelidis will be going down to the Crunch, though I don’t know if he has to clear waivers, but the rest are interesting, one will probably have to go of those four and what do you do with the three that is left, do you give one of them a full time job and split the other spot between the other two or do you split time with all three, big question.


On defense of course it’s what to do with Nesterov, Koekkoek and Witkowski, now I don’t know how has to clear waivers of them or how that looks but it’s also a big question on how it goes, though I’m guessing Koekoek will go down to gain some more experience.

Our top 9 looks to be set:

TKO
DSC
KFC

Our fourth line has Paquette and Boyle and I'm leaning towards Vladdy. That means Brown and Marchessault make the squad and there is some kind of rotation setup. Angelidis most certainly goes back down to Syracuse. He is not waivers exempt...but I doubt anyone claims him off the waiver wire. He'll report to Syracuse and resume his captain duties.

On defense its a very muddy situation. Looks like our top 6 defensive pairs are set with Heddy/Stral, Garri/Coburn, and Carle/Sustr. If it was me I'd keep Witko up here serving popcorn and both Koekkoek and Nestea are sent down to Syracuse. If Nestea makes the team - that means one of the forwards...probably Marchessault is sent through waivers. He is a PPG player in the AHL...he could get claimed by a team. He has nothing left to prove and his development time is over in the AHL. But then you create a situation where Nestea's development time is spent serving popcorn instead of playing significant minutes down in the AHL. The other possibility is that Witko is sent through waivers - doubt he gets claimed and Nestea is the 7th forward. But again...why would we want Nestea watching games instead of playing significant time down in the AHL? I bet the people down in Syracuse would be extremely happy to see Koekkoek/DeAngelo and Nesterov/Blujus playing top four down in Syracuse...that would be an excellent top four for the AHL. Some good players down in the AHL this year...Connor Brown/Kapanen/Mantha/Nurse/Fiala/Larkin/Morin/Vrana/Nylander, etc. I think this season there are more big name prospects down in the AHL than I can remember.

I think Nestea and Koekkoek get sent down and we keep everyone we currently have in the organization instead of exposing players to waivers and/or stunting their development time. Sending Nestea and Koekkoek down also pushes their due raises and CAP hits one year further into the future. We have to get rid of Carle first in order for Nestea and Koekkoek to get their shot on the big boy club.

 

[These Are The Days]

I know I'm dumping hard on Andrej Sustr but the young man is 24 years old ready to turn 25 at the end of November. He has a full season and a half of NHL playing time, a Stanley Cup Finals playoff run, a Calder Cup Finals playoff run to go with over a dozen AHL games AND he was able to play 3 years of college hockey against 24 year old competition when he was 19.

He has 248 regular season games of development since he was 19 years old to go with 47 playoff games (that we know of) between the NHL, college and AHL.

Exactly when is the lightbulb going to go off with this kid? And exactly how is Carle supposed to succeed when he is paired with a player who has THAT MUCH playing time to his name since he was 19 and is seldom competent as a #6 defensemen.

Meanwhile it's likely Koekkoek is going to Syracuse and we have to wait yet ANOTHER YEAR for the guy we passed on Filip Forsberg for while the other defensemen drafted that year are entering their SECOND AND THIRD full NHL seasons.

If Sustr keeps his job over a player who has already proven himself a superior skater and demonstrated more willingness to take the body than his 6'8 counterpart who will be 4 years older than him than I don't know what to say.

I can say with almost absolute certainty that if we played Koekkoek with Carle that you'd instantly see Carle play better.

 

[These Are The Days]

This is true.



Our top 9 looks to be set:

TKO
DSC
KFC

Our fourth line has Paquette and Boyle and I'm leaning towards Vladdy. That means Brown and Marchessault make the squad and there is some kind of rotation setup. Angelidis most certainly goes back down to Syracuse. He is not waivers exempt...but I doubt anyone claims him off the waiver wire. He'll report to Syracuse and resume his captain duties.

On defense its a very muddy situation. Looks like our top 6 defensive pairs are set with Heddy/Stral, Garri/Coburn, and Carle/Sustr. If it was me I'd keep Witko up here serving popcorn and both Koekkoek and Nestea are sent down to Syracuse. If Nestea makes the team - that means one of the forwards...probably Marchessault is sent through waivers. He is a PPG player in the AHL...he could get claimed by a team. He has nothing left to prove and his development time is over in the AHL. But then you create a situation where Nestea's development time is spent serving popcorn instead of playing significant minutes down in the AHL. The other possibility is that Witko is sent through waivers - doubt he gets claimed and Nestea is the 7th forward. But again...why would we want Nestea watching games instead of playing significant time down in the AHL?

I think Nestea and Koekkoek get sent down and we keep everyone we currently have in the organization instead of exposing players to waivers and/or stunting their development time. Sending Nestea and Koekkoek down also pushes their due raises and CAP hits one year further into the future. We have to get rid of Carle first in order for Nestea and Koekkoek to get their shot on the big boy club.

I think you're right on regarding the forwards. But Carle could end up sticking around longer than we think. With Coburn's contract expiring our back end stands to look like.

Hedman-Stralman
Garrison-???
Carle-Sustr

Nesterov, Witko DeAngelo and Koekkoek are the pet projects and none of them have been given ANY significant NHL playing time.

A good year by Coburn and he stands to make more than the $4.5 million AAV than he is now on the open market. Unless we find some extra cash laying around we're gonna have to have another top 4 defenseman.

 

[Werewolf]

I know I'm dumping hard on Andrej Sustr but the young man is 24 years old ready to turn 25 at the end of November. He has a full season and a half of NHL playing time, a Stanley Cup Finals playoff run, a Calder Cup Finals playoff run to go with over a dozen AHL games AND he was able to play 3 years of college hockey against 24 year old competition when he was 19.

He has 248 regular season games of development since he was 19 years old to go with 47 playoff games (that we know of) between the NHL, college and AHL.

Exactly when is the lightbulb going to go off with this kid? And exactly how is Carle supposed to succeed when he is paired with a player who has THAT MUCH playing time to his name since he was 19 and is seldom competent as a #6 defensemen.

Meanwhile it's likely Koekkoek is going to Syracuse and we have to wait yet ANOTHER YEAR for the guy we passed on Filip Forsberg for while the other defensemen drafted that year are entering their SECOND AND THIRD full NHL seasons.

If Sustr keeps his job over a player who has already proven himself a superior skater and demonstrated more willingness to take the body than his 6'8 counterpart who will be 4 years older than him than I don't know what to say.

I can say with almost absolute certainty that if we played Koekkoek with Carle that you'd instantly see Carle play better.

You can't plug and play like that man. RHD play on the right side and LHD play on the left side. You can't just switch them and expect it to be a good result...I've seen Stralman getting crossed up and falling down this preseason back pedaling on the left side instead on his usual right. They are just not used to it...doesn't work that way. You can't play Carle and Koekkoek together...that won't be pretty at all and I bet it'd be worse than a Carle/Sustr pairing.

 

[These Are The Days]

You can't plug and play like that man. RHD play on the right side and LHD play on the left side. You can't just switch them and expect it to be a good result...I've seen Stralman getting crossed up and falling down this preseason back pedaling on the left side instead on his usual right. They are just not used to it...doesn't work that way. You can't play Carle and Koekkoek together...that won't be pretty at all and I bet it'd be worse than a Carle/Sustr pairing.

Yeah I know. I don't think I was thinking too clearly when I was typing. I actually sat through the entire Bucs game and had dinner with my father in law and the rest of the family and was up til almost midnight so I had a few drinks. I don't know whether or not I'm a touch hung over but I'm cloudy with a very slight headache.

I'm beyond frustrated with how long we've held onto Koekkoek in the minors and Sustr as the #6 that I'm losing my reason here. The Lightning are ready to make the next step and win a Cup. You don't shutout Henrik and the Rangers in Game 5 and 7 at MSG and call it a fluke. I just want to see us win with the best team possible

 

[bov]

I feel worse for Sustr having to play with Carle...

 

[Hoek]

Oh this would be perfect!

 

[chasespace]

Oh this would be perfect!

Serious question, would he be an upgrade over Poulion?

 

[Brie]

Looks like Johnsons injury might have been the worst one of the once we had Saturday (other than Paquette’s that is)



Looks like JAM could be heading to waivers:



Then here are the lines and players that are at practice today:




All od the 'd' seem to have been at pratice though, at least no one have said anything else.

 

[Hoek]

Serious question, would he be an upgrade over Poulion?

I think so considering Tick has a sv% above .900 in his career while Poulin is below. I'm not expecting miracles but he should be slightly better. Habs fans seem to be down on Tick as he had a bad second half last season, but they also kind of have unrealistic expectations next to Price.

On JAM:

 

[dechire]

Congrats to JAM

 

[More 2004]

Tokarski would be the ideal fill in until Vasi gets back IMO. I hope we snag him.

 

[AlphaCatalyst]

I would like to see Tic back but once Vasi is healthy it would cause quite the log jam for the Crunch.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

How much longer is Vas expected to be out? Wasn't he at practice awhile ago?

 

[Hoek]

Just had a tweet about it.



He's been expected to miss the first 6-8 weeks of the season for a while now.

 

[Hoek]

I would like to see Tic back but once Vasi is healthy it would cause quite the log jam for the Crunch.

Not necessarily since Montreal or someone else can just grab him back when we waive him.

 

[dechire]

How much longer is Vas expected to be out? Wasn't he at practice awhile ago?

Still about a month or possibly longer. He's on blood thinners so he can skate and work on positioning but he can't face any shots. When the blood thinners are out of his system he can start practicing for real and likely come back soon after that. Good news is that this was a physical abnormality instead of a regular clot and it's been corrected so it shouldn't happen again with him.

edit:


Yay a convenient update

 

[DFC]

Damn all of you for making such compelling arguments. That's why I love it here!

I'm a stubborn one though. I really don't want to see Carle lost with no compensation. I'd rather just keep him until cap space becomes "that much" of a bigger deal.

Half the problem with Carle is the fact that he's got to babysit Sustr every time he is on the ice. People forget how bad things were on the back end that Carle was welcomed back like a conquering hero. He didn't help much but he made things better.

Carle's biggest problem is exactly what Meszaro's deal was. He is a "Robin" defenseman who needs a Batman to be the anchor of the defensive pairing. Back when he was in Philly he had guys like Pronger and Timmonen to watch his hide and Carle was able to jump in offensively more often than he does here. He had someone to mop up his mistakes. And truth be told, Coburn, Garrison and even Hedman at times all struggle to be a defensive anchor. But the offense we have was/is so good at puck retreival and possession that it limited the amount of work these guys had to do and they functioned excellently as top 4 guys. Carle is seldom put into those positions to succeed. Usually it was the Toews line and Sustr as his buddy on defense and we all cringed in fear.

If we utilize Carle to his strengths and don't ask so much of him I guarantee he would not only play better but at least one team might actually consider wanting him. He was awesome on the powerplay in Philly but then again Coop's gonna Coop when it comes to the powerplay. I'm no expert but I can promise you if Carle wasn't Sustr's babysitter he would be able to do better.

Then the playoffs happened.

That's where we saw just how dire the Carle situation was/is. Because you're right, it was a little easier to excuse Carle's play when it looked like he was Sustr's babysitter. But then as the playoffs wore on, it began to look like it was Sustr babysitting Carle. Horrifying.

Right now it doesn't matter who's the babysitter and who's the baby. It's the blind leading the blind. He could be out there with Nick Lidstrom every night. You can't just calmly pass the puck to an opponent in your own zone twice per game. That what it's come to.

 

[DFC]

Yeah I know. I don't think I was thinking too clearly when I was typing. I actually sat through the entire Bucs game and had dinner with my father in law and the rest of the family and was up til almost midnight so I had a few drinks. I don't know whether or not I'm a touch hung over but I'm cloudy with a very slight headache.

I'm beyond frustrated with how long we've held onto Koekkoek in the minors and Sustr as the #6 that I'm losing my reason here. The Lightning are ready to make the next step and win a Cup. You don't shutout Henrik and the Rangers in Game 5 and 7 at MSG and call it a fluke. I just want to see us win with the best team possible

Sustr's competition is DeAngelo and Witkowski. As of now, I think Witko is probably a slightly better option. He's missing some of the physical tools, but his "play it safe" game is better for our bottom pairing, I think.

It's going to be hard to keep Koekkoek in the NHL with Nesterov and Carle around. You don't want Koekkoek in the pressbox every night. Let him be a #1 D in the A for a full year (I believe he only became the #1 last year when Nes was promoted).

I think Slater will get his share of NHL time this year, regardless. Injuries will happen. Either way, it's promising that he's pushing so hard for an NHL job right now when it seems pretty clear that the plan was to hold him down for at least one more year.

As for the other stuff, we're now an organization that overcooks its prospects. It'll happen to a lot of them. There are some big time benefits to it though.

 

[These Are The Days]

Then the playoffs happened.

That's where we saw just how dire the Carle situation was/is. Because you're right, it was a little easier to excuse Carle's play when it looked like he was Sustr's babysitter. But then as the playoffs wore on, it began to look like it was Sustr babysitting Carle. Horrifying.

Right now it doesn't matter who's the babysitter and who's the baby. It's the blind leading the blind. He could be out there with Nik Lidstrom every night. You can't just calmly pass the puck to an opponent in your own zone twice per game. That what it's come to.

They're both boneheads as far as I'm concerned. I just don't want either of them costing us games. We'll deal with Carle as necessary as the time comes. I'm more worried about other things than Carle/Sustr right now. Much bigger fish to fry.

The Lightning are in a very fragile balance. A few inconsistencies by key players and the whole thing can fall apart. A 7 game losing streak is going to be very easy to pull off given the rigorous nature of this year's schedule. Bishop gets hurt and will be out a 2 weeks and we are left at the mercy of whatever backup is in net. Or the TKO line goes cold and Stamkos is too busy in la la land to make any sort of impact. We could very easily go into long funks that could cost us valuable position in the standings or even a playoff spot.

Last year I KNEW full and well that the Lightning were a force to be reckoned with. That the pieces for a perfect storm were in place. I never said it out loud but I figured the Lightning would at least make the ECF.

Maybe I'm just anxious because we got so close and lost but we have to be careful. Every little thing counts now.

 

[MrClutch86]

Hoping the Lightning can claim one of Tokarski, Berube, or Peters..who are at least better than Poulin.

 

[Werewolf]

They're both boneheads as far as I'm concerned. I just don't want either of them costing us games. We'll deal with Carle as necessary as the time comes. I'm more worried about other things than Carle/Sustr right now. Much bigger fish to fry.

The Lightning are in a very fragile balance. A few inconsistencies by key players and the whole thing can fall apart. A 7 game losing streak is going to be very easy to pull off given the rigorous nature of this year's schedule. Bishop gets hurt and will be out a 2 weeks and we are left at the mercy of whatever backup is in net. Or the TKO line goes cold and Stamkos is too busy in la la land to make any sort of impact. We could very easily go into long funks that could cost us valuable position in the standings or even a playoff spot.

Last year I KNEW full and well that the Lightning were a force to be reckoned with. That the pieces for a perfect storm were in place. I never said it out loud but I figured the Lightning would at least make the ECF.

Maybe I'm just anxious because we got so close and lost but we have to be careful. Every little thing counts now.

That literally makes no sense. Last year you knew that we were a force to be reckoned with...fast forward to this year and we have a better roster and better depth, however, this year we are in a "very fragile" state?

 

[DFC]

They're both boneheads as far as I'm concerned. I just don't want either of them costing us games. We'll deal with Carle as necessary as the time comes. I'm more worried about other things than Carle/Sustr right now. Much bigger fish to fry.

The Lightning are in a very fragile balance. A few inconsistencies by key players and the whole thing can fall apart. A 7 game losing streak is going to be very easy to pull off given the rigorous nature of this year's schedule. Bishop gets hurt and will be out a 2 weeks and we are left at the mercy of whatever backup is in net. Or the TKO line goes cold and Stamkos is too busy in la la land to make any sort of impact. We could very easily go into long funks that could cost us valuable position in the standings or even a playoff spot.

Last year I KNEW full and well that the Lightning were a force to be reckoned with. That the pieces for a perfect storm were in place. I never said it out loud but I figured the Lightning would at least make the ECF.

Maybe I'm just anxious because we got so close and lost but we have to be careful. Every little thing counts now.

We should be better this year than last year. It sounds like what you're worried about is the change in attitude, or, the change from underdog to favorite and the effect that'll have on the roster.

But the roster is better. Everyone's a year older, which, in our case, is a good thing. In Drouin alone, it looks like we've added a 50 point (at least) player to the roster. Yeah, nothing's a given and all that jazz, but at worst we have the same roster as last year, minus Morrow, plus Condra, with our only player in major decline being Matt Carle.

The one really frightening thing is, like you said, what happens if Bishop sustains a real injury? He hasn't been the most durable guy since coming here, and, in all honesty, I wouldn't be comfortable even if Vasy was healthy. He's just barely NHL ready, IMO, and looked shakier and shakier last year as he rode the bench more and more.

But what team couldn't say that? What it comes down to is, I'd rather be facing those issues with our roster rather than just about anyone else's. Our main pieces are all 25 and under.

And think about this: What if the Victor Hedman that showed up in the playoffs shows up all year long? That's a Norris winner.

 

[These Are The Days]

That literally makes no sense. Last year you knew that we were a force to be reckoned with...fast forward to this year and we have a better roster and better depth, however, this year we are in a "very fragile" state?

It's delusional I know.

But the Lightning have always been only as strong as their goaltending. And last year we stumbled on the best line in hockey literally by accident and it provided half of our offense in the playoffs. What's the offense going to look like if they struggle. If Bishop goes down for 2 or 3 weeks and we suddenly give up 4 goals a game how many are we going to win? What if Bishop even struggles?

I just want to believe that what I saw last year was real. 2005 and 2006 broke my heart, 2011 broke my heart. Last year we were fresh off Montreal sweeping us and we had nothing to lose.

I don't know if I'm on to something or if I'm just conditioned to failure

 

[TheDaysOf 04]

I'd welcome Tokarski back, although for me that's based more on Tic being an ex-prospect than stats. I could see Coop being a voice of support for him if he wants one of his AHL guys back. Like Barbs and Angelidis, Tic is one of Coops original guys from 2010-2011.