OT: 2014 FIFA World Cup Champions: Germany

[oconnor9sean]

Not sure what's crazier, your statement or that you made it in a thread about the World Cup.

I thought this was the General Hockey thread lol.

As for my statement, I stand by it.

 

[Mr Misty]

I'm also not sure about the necessity of our top players playing in Europe. The success of the MLS as a league has been one of the most positive developments imaginable for American soccer. From what I can tell there's near universal agreement that the league's quality continues to improve. The player base and depth of viable NT options has grown impressively. If we take that KHL comparison a step further, has the fact that Russia has several of the top players in the world who play in the best league in the world helped them in recent international competition?

There are about 20 Russian NHLers IIRC. As a result, the national team doesn't have enough "middle class" players who can match up with Canada. Obviously some KHL stars couldn't make the cut in the NHL, but the ones who do will be stronger from the competition.

Going back to what you said about expectations, do we want our best players to return to the MLS or push as hard as they can in Europe? MLS is doing fine because there is money to attract faded stars but if you want to produce a top footballer the European method has been infinitely more successful than our domestic model.

 

[Stars99Lobo37]

I thought this was the General Hockey thread lol.

As for my statement, I stand by it.

You drunk.

 

[piqued]

Going back to what you said about expectations, do we want our best players to return to the MLS or push as hard as they can in Europe? MLS is doing fine because there is money to attract faded stars but if you want to produce a top footballer the European method has been infinitely more successful than our domestic model.

I would argue that our domestic model is undergoing a state of flux. It can't be judged as unsuccessful yet. It's only this generation that a reasonably competitive domestic top league has existed. MLS has always had faded stars since its inception. They're not what made the league what it is today. The way forward isn't going to be to send our best talents overseas, it's going to be to develop them farther at a younger age. I agree with what you said about a focus on technical aspects and the limiting component of the NCAA setup. The idea should be emulate European development locally. Sending players abroad after they're already a certain age may make them better but it's not as appealing of a long-term strategy when the country is capable of building its own system.

 

[ginblossoms]

Thank you guys.
I have been in Dallas once,a long time ago during the soccer world cup back in 1994.Hope it will not be another 20 years till I get there for the second time.And this time I would like to be able to watch a Stars game at AAC.

whoa. i was at that game too. germany vs south korea. i'm korean. i took german in high school. germany won but south korea scored a goal (or two?). at that time, that goal was as tremendous accomplishment for south korean soccer. i still remember klinsmann's goal. i recall it hitting a water bottle.

 

[PetePeeters]

whoa. i was at that game too. germany vs south korea. i'm korean. i took german in high school. germany won but south korea scored a goal (or two?). at that time, that goal was as tremendous accomplishment for south korean soccer. i still remember klinsmann's goal. i recall it hitting a water bottle.

Germany won 3-2.They were up 3-0 by halftime,but had nothing left for the second half,not being
used to the high temperatures.I think it was 100 degrees that day and the game was a matinee.
Would the game have lasted 100 instead of 90 minutes the south koreans would have scored the
equalizer.And you are right,Klinsmann scored two goals in that game.

 

[glovesave_35]

I don't follow soccer that closely anymore but always tune in for the World Cup. I guess I assumed that Donovan at his age would have one more go around, so yeah, that does seem strange that he got left out, although I have no basis on whether to say he'd be a better option than those included.

I do disagree with that bleacher report article and in fact that entire attitude is partly what holds USA soccer back. The team should go in with high expectations, no matter what. Making it out of the group stage should be expected regardless of what other teams are in the group. Germany, Portugal, and Ghana are all strong sides. The USA is capable of beating each and every one of them.

I'm also not sure about the necessity of our top players playing in Europe. The success of the MLS as a league has been one of the most positive developments imaginable for American soccer. From what I can tell there's near universal agreement that the league's quality continues to improve. The player base and depth of viable NT options has grown impressively. If we take that KHL comparison a step further, has the fact that Russia has several of the top players in the world who play in the best league in the world helped them in recent international competition?

I don't even know if MLS = KHL is the best comparison. Like you, I don't follow soccer religiously but always get into it around World Cup time, but I think the general consensus is that MLS is a step below all of the best leagues in Europe. Maybe the more hardcore soccer fans here can correct me but I'd be hard pressed to say that the MLS is better than the Dutch league. Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A...aren't those all a major step above MLS? Not to mention all of the crossover play between leagues that allows guys to become more familiar with specific players.

Seems like MLS might be more like the Swiss hockey league of note, or at best SM-Liiga.

 

[glovesave_35]

I would argue that our domestic model is undergoing a state of flux. It can't be judged as unsuccessful yet. It's only this generation that a reasonably competitive domestic top league has existed. MLS has always had faded stars since its inception. They're not what made the league what it is today. The way forward isn't going to be to send our best talents overseas, it's going to be to develop them farther at a younger age. I agree with what you said about a focus on technical aspects and the limiting component of the NCAA setup. The idea should be emulate European development locally. Sending players abroad after they're already a certain age may make them better but it's not as appealing of a long-term strategy when the country is capable of building its own system.

Is your main focus developing the best possible crop of American players or developing the biggest domestic league?

In hockey we have seen a major influx of more and more talented Swedish players over the last 10 or so years. From what I understand, the Swedish hockey federation (whatever it's called) changed the way they developed and groomed their young players. Those changes have helped produce more better players, but the best still go to the best league in the world. And almost every player on the Swedish Olympic team the last few times around has been an NHL'er. That is also largely an economically driven result; the best players get paid more to play in the top leagues. If American soccer players are good enough to play with and star in the best leagues in the world they will make way more money in Europe than they would here.

 

[PetePeeters]

I don't even know if MLS = KHL is the best comparison. Like you, I don't follow soccer religiously but always get into it around World Cup time, but I think the general consensus is that MLS is a step below all of the best leagues in Europe. Maybe the more hardcore soccer fans here can correct me but I'd be hard pressed to say that the MLS is better than the Dutch league. Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A...aren't those all a major step above MLS? Not to mention all of the crossover play between leagues that allows guys to become more familiar with specific players.

Seems like MLS might be more like the Swiss hockey league of note, or at best SM-Liiga.

I think the Swiss league is a good comparison.The big difference is that players in Premier league,Bundesliga,Premiera Division and so on are playing against other world class players on a regular basis not only in their national leagues,but especially in the Champions League as well.There the standard and the speed of the games are extremely high.And don`t forget.There is a lot of money involved in top european soccer.So it is clear that a lot of world class players are engaged in europe.
They are used to high pressure,tight schedules and that is helping in tournaments like the world cup.

 

[Mr Misty]

I don't even know if MLS = KHL is the best comparison. Like you, I don't follow soccer religiously but always get into it around World Cup time, but I think the general consensus is that MLS is a step below all of the best leagues in Europe. Maybe the more hardcore soccer fans here can correct me but I'd be hard pressed to say that the MLS is better than the Dutch league. Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A...aren't those all a major step above MLS? Not to mention all of the crossover play between leagues that allows guys to become more familiar with specific players.

Seems like MLS might be more like the Swiss hockey league of note, or at best SM-Liiga.

The comparison isn't about relative quality of play, its about always having a lifeboat in case things get tough. Players can go back to the US where they will play more and make more money; if they had nowhere to retreat to some would persevere and become better players.

Is your main focus developing the best possible crop of American players or developing the biggest domestic league?

In hockey we have seen a major influx of more and more talented Swedish players over the last 10 or so years. From what I understand, the Swedish hockey federation (whatever it's called) changed the way they developed and groomed their young players. Those changes have helped produce more better players, but the best still go to the best league in the world. And almost every player on the Swedish Olympic team the last few times around has been an NHL'er. That is also largely an economically driven result; the best players get paid more to play in the top leagues. If American soccer players are good enough to play with and star in the best leagues in the world they will make way more money in Europe than they would here.

Except in soccer it isn't a smooth curve, there are multiple inflection points. Bradley, Donovan, and Dempsey make more here than they did in Europe because here they sell tickets. There is every economic incentive for top American players to play here instead of abroad.

 

[glovesave_35]

Except in soccer it isn't a smooth curve, there are multiple inflection points. Bradley, Donovan, and Dempsey make more here than they did in Europe because here they sell tickets. There is every economic incentive for top American players to play here instead of abroad.

Except that only works for a few players because the league can't support paying that kind of cash to many players.

MLS is good and getting better but the level of competition is nowhere near what you see in Europe. That is obvious even to the casual observer. In order to have the most competitive national team the more players we have in Europe the better.

 

[ginblossoms]

unless/until american culture puts a focus on soccer, the u.s. soccer team will always toil in that 2nd/3rd tier of international soccer imo (like france/austria/england/germany in iihf). over the years, it has happened organically with "american" football and basketball.

i agree that the euro experience would better serve the quality of american soccer. mls growth is nice and all, but playing that herky jerky vertical style doesn't work well against the world's best players.

to truly set the path for improvement, though, i think you have to start young (someone mentioned this earlier). this does not mean sending kids to the community soccer leagues. more along the lines of that fc barcelona soccer youth academy where messi (and others) came from. heck, even try what us hockey does and organize some super youth travel team that plays against older players.

 

[Starsfan24]

USA beats Turkey 2-1.

 

[Stars99Lobo37]

US watch parties: http://www.fcdallas.com/worldcup/parties
6/16 - vs Ghana - Alamo Drafthouse
6/22 - vs Portugal - Klyde Warren Park (this one will be really cool IMO)
6/26 - vs Germany - AT&T Plaza at American Airlines Center

 

[DaStars99]

For those that are into the local craft scene, Peticolas is launching his new beer called Thrilla in Brazilla. It's an American IPA that will be available during the World Cup and is only available first at select bars that will be showing the opening matches next Thursday with volume.

Yet another reason to get excited for the World Cup. Wish the watching party at the Alamo drafthouse was for either of the other games though. Love that theater but Paul McCartney is in town that night.

 

[Klockis]

I'm looking forward to see England lose in penalties.

 

[KiedisA]

If you are near Toyota Stadium, go watch Ivory Coast - El Salvador tonight.. You got Drogba, Yaya Toure, Bony, Tiote, Kalou etc. gearing up for Brazil..

 

[glovesave_35]

El Salvador is going to wipe the floor with them.

 

[piqued]

This is an excellent long NY Times article covering many of the issues we've talked about. Klinsmann takes most of you guys' side and I seem to be saying more of what Bruce Arena believes.

 

[glovesave_35]

I definitely agree with Klinsmann's philosophy.

If Klinsmann had his way, the United States roster would be made up of Americans playing their club soccer in Europe, facing the best competition in the world on a daily basis instead of only a few games every few years.

“The more players we can get playing at the top levels over there, the better it will be,” he told me. “That is one sign of progress.”

Rather than Arenas' (who btw comes across more than a tad bitter).

“I believe an American should be coaching the national team,” says Arena, who led the national team for eight years. “I think the majority of the national team should come out of Major League Soccer. The people that run our governing body think we need to copy what everyone else does, when in reality, our solutions will ultimately come from our culture.

He doesn't even hint at what it is about "our culture" that is part of the solution.

I want the best soccer players on our national team no matter where they play. The fact is that the best ones are usually the guys who play against top European players the most often. I think there's just a big part of me that will never really take MLS seriously, so that obviously is factored into my opinion. I would rather have national team players who play in the Mexican league rather than in MLS. Simply put, we do not have a top level league so why would we want to populate our national team from a lower level league if given the choice?

 

[piqued]

It's chicken and the egg. There won't ever be a domestic top level league if people keep looking for reasons to avoid it. What is the common denominator with other traditional powers? They have a top level domestic league.

 

[Satan]

How is it domestic if you've got teams in Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto?

Honestly, I think the MLS will be a terrific way to develop talented players for both countries. It's growing well from what I've noticed.

 

[glovesave_35]

It's chicken and the egg. There won't ever be a domestic top level league if people keep looking for reasons to avoid it. What is the common denominator with other traditional powers? They have a top level domestic league.

I think it has to do with knowing your place for now and growing everything for the future, or possibly just realizing that in America we do a lot of things great but accepting that it's ok to not have the best soccer league in the world.

This sport has a massive cult following in all of those countries in Europe where they have top level leagues. The fans there crave soccer, Americans don't crave soccer. Our children play it, up to a certain age, but competing with the other top American sports I really doubt whether it will be among them. If that were to ever happen it would likely be as a result of watching American national teams compete for the championship at every major tournament. For now I think the best course of action is to send our best players to the best leagues playing the most games against the best competition. MLS isn't even close to that now.

 

[Stars99Lobo37]

@BBCWorld 21m

Airport workers in Rio de Janeiro calling for pay rise and World Cup bonus declare 24-hour strike

Talk about embarrassing.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Ugh. Damn unions.