Salary Cap: 2014-2015 Roster Building Thread - Part V for Vendetta | Don't Hate on Greasy Neal!

[Shrimper]

Which of our prospects from the 2012 Draft need signing?

 

[wej20]

With the injuries Bolland has had whoever gives him 6 or 7 years will regret it.

 

[JVS]

How about trying to sign Swedish forward Joakim Lindström who has been the best player in the swedish elite league the last few years? Kind of like how Boston picked up Carl Soderberg.

 

[BobCole]

As a fanbase, I think we're so used to superlatives being thrown around about some of our players that we go goofy when it comes to recognizing players that are *between* all-star-calibre and mediocre/bad on the spectrum. In virtually every category, the stats bear out that Fleury is a *good* (not mediocre, not elite) goaltender and he is paid as such.

I don't get the argument that you can't get better goalies then MAF,

OK, then please provide a list of FA goalies demonstrably better than MAF available at a price tag we can afford. Not trying to be snarky.

hes a very mediocre goalie who is payed like one of the better goalies in the league,

He's actually the 14th highest paid, which is right about where he should be.

Look at this Tokarski guy, i never even heard of him before,

He backstopped Canada to its fifth consecutive gold medal at the World Jr.'s, he didn't come out of nowhere for anybody who even half-heartedly follows NHL prospects.

granted hes only played a couple games, but hes played better in these couple games then i'v seen MAF play in the playoffs in the last 5 years.

He played one great game and one mediocre one. All NHL goalies can play good games, it's simply a matter of how frequently they play them. The best guys are a threat to steal games on a nightly basis (MAF is not in this category). Good goalies give their teams a chance to win on most nights (Fleury is definitely in this category). Mediocre to bad ones play inconsistently; they are good on some nights and lose games on other nights.

If you don't have an elite goalie, which the pens obviously don't have, then go out and get a goalie for 1-2 million that will put up mediocre numbers just like MAF will and save the extra 3-4 million in cap space.

Like I said earlier in my post, there is a middle ground between "elite" and "mediocre," and that's where Fleury resides. As for your idea of snagging up any $1-2M goalie, this would be fine if there were FA goalies available with good NHL resumes at a price of $1-2M/yr., but there aren't.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I am going to make one last request for every one on this board. When structuring a team for next year, don't include Scuds. Mario wants a Fast team with GRIT. Here are the great stats for Scuds this year. 53 regular season games with no goals 4 assists and a minus 8.
13 playoff games , 0 goals and 0 assists and a minus 4. And you are paying him 3.4MM for the next 3 years. Wow what a return on your investment. He simply must go. Scuds has absolutely no speed, grit and offensive capability and there is no way he is going to get better next year. HE MUST GO.

It's a question of timing, really. With both Maatta and Pouliot out until December/January, we may have to keep Scuderi.


Re: Niskanen, so we're going to re-sign a defenseman...who is considered the No. 1 UFA D-man on the market? This doesn't make any sense. He's going to get 6-8 years and $5-6 million/year. Somebody will give him crazy money. A good comparable for Niskanen is James Wisniewski, who signed a six-year deal at $5.5 million in 2011.

Would you give Niskanen six years, $5.5 million per? I know I wouldn't. And he'll likely get even more because Wisniewski's deal was three years ago.

There's no way it makes any sense to go after the No. 1 defenseman on the UFA market. None whatsoever.

 

[BobCole]

It's a question of timing, really. With both Maatta and Pouliot out until December/January, we may have to keep Scuderi.


Re: Niskanen, so we're going to re-sign a defenseman...who is considered the No. 1 UFA D-man on the market? This doesn't make any sense. He's going to get 6-8 years and $5-6 million/year. Somebody will give him crazy money. A good comparable for Niskanen is James Wisniewski, who signed a six-year deal at $5.5 million in 2011.

Would you give Niskanen six years, $5.5 million per? I know I wouldn't. And he'll likely get even more because Wisniewski's deal was three years ago.

There's no way it makes any sense to go after the No. 1 defenseman on the UFA market. None whatsoever.

If Nisky wants to truly test free agency and go to the highest bidder, then I completely agree with the sentiment that we should let him go. The only caveat I'd add to your comment is that if Nisky is willing to give a discount to the Pens (effectively allowing us to avoid paying him as though we were trying to poach him from the FA market), then I think they should consider it.

 

[strandvag]

It's a question of timing, really. With both Maatta and Pouliot out until December/January, we may have to keep Scuderi.



Would you give Niskanen six years, $5.5 million per? I know I wouldn't. And he'll likely get even more because Wisniewski's deal was three years ago.

There's no way it makes any sense to go after the No. 1 defenseman on the UFA market. None whatsoever.

Yeah, I love Niskanen but I'm not too fond to have Letang and Niskanen tied up into 12-13 mil on longterm contracts

 

[cheesedanish87]

Bob Cole,

MAF had a 915 save %, that was tied for 23rd in the league, his career save % is 910, that isn't between all star and mediocre, that is just mediocre, no other way to put it.

As far as other UFA goalies, there are lots of mediocre goalies that don't cost as much as MAF, there are goalies available in trade that can put up similar stats, they are out there and they aren't hard to get.

As far as Tokarski goes i only pay attention to pens prospects, i don't pay attention to other teams prospects.

 

[BobCole]

Bob Cole,

MAF had a 915 save %, that was tied for 23rd in the league, his career save % is 910, that isn't between all star and mediocre, that is just mediocre, no other way to put it.

As far as other UFA goalies, there are lots of mediocre goalies that don't cost as much as MAF, there are goalies available in trade that can put up similar stats, they are out there and they aren't hard to get.

As far as Tokarski goes i only pay attention to pens prospects, i don't pay attention to other teams prospects.

MAF has been a better than mediocre NHL goalie, particularly in the regular season. If I'm reading you right, it sounds like you don't follow other teams too closely. There is plenty of mediocre goaltending around the NHL; Fleury is better than that crop.

That aside, you've twice stated that MAF replacements can easily be had at the $1-2M price point or via trade. Who are these goalies? I'm by no means a MAF apologist, I'm just a realist and I don't see too many viable alternatives. Halak was one but he just went (and at a price comparable to MAF's to boot).

 

[drpepper]

Bob Cole,

MAF had a 915 save %, that was tied for 23rd in the league, his career save % is 910, that isn't between all star and mediocre, that is just mediocre, no other way to put it.

As far as other UFA goalies, there are lots of mediocre goalies that don't cost as much as MAF, there are goalies available in trade that can put up similar stats, they are out there and they aren't hard to get.

As far as Tokarski goes i only pay attention to pens prospects, i don't pay attention to other teams prospects.

If there are so many goalies available that are better than MAF, it should be easy to name a few. A couple UFAs with price tags and a couple possible trades with trade pieces, please.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Some ufa guys,

Stalock

Peters

Miller

Some goalies who might be available by trade

Reimer

Jones

Anderson

If this Tokarski keeps up his play i'd go after him.


There are so many mediocre goalies available, like i said they aren't hard to get, last year at the deadline another mediocre goalie Ben Scrivens got traded for a 3rd round pick, you don't even have to give up much to get one of these guys.

 

[Til the End of Time]

fleury is a mediocre regular season goalie and a bad postseason goalie.

overall that results in him being a bad goalie, and the sooner he's out of this organization the better.

 

[Coach Travis]

Seems like there's always goalies who turn into good NHL goalies in the $1M-$2M range. I'd almost like to see us sign 3 of those and go with the hot hand.

 

[drpepper]

Some ufa guys,

Stalock

Peters

Miller

Some goalies who might be available by trade

Reimer

Jones

Anderson

If this Tokarski keeps up his play i'd go after him.


There are so many mediocre goalies available, like i said they aren't hard to get, last year at the deadline another mediocre goalie Ben Scrivens got traded for a 3rd round pick, you don't even have to give up much to get one of these guys.

Peters, Stalock, & Jones are the guys of the future for their respective teams; Pens are only getting them with a huge overpayment.

Miller wants a big contract $6 million per with term (6-7 years).

Anderson is not good, and I think the Pens trade pieces especially picks would be better spent on forwards not Reimer.

The goalie market is not good so far this offseason.

 

[BobCole]

Some ufa guys,

Stalock - he of 20 NHL games.

Peters - he of 60 NHL games.

Miller - he who will command WAY more than $5M.

None of these guys fit this conversation. You said that there were plenty of guys who could equal or better Fleury's stats at better prices. Well, your first two guys have a combined 80 games of NHL experience. I hope you would agree that a team with Cup aspirations shouldn't just hand its starting goaltending position to a guy with half a season worth of experience to show for himself.

As for Miller, he's going to command a LOT more than $5M, and if our fans think Fleury's a headcase...

Some goalies who might be available by trade

Reimer

Jones

Anderson

If this Tokarski keeps up his play i'd go after him.


There are so many mediocre goalies available, like i said they aren't hard to get, last year at the deadline another mediocre goalie Ben Scrivens got traded for a 3rd round pick, you don't even have to give up much to get one of these guys.

Reimer lost a starting job playing for the Leafs.

Jones has 19 games of NHL experience.

The Senators are doubtless not trading their starting goaltender with no contingency plan.

The idea of trading assets in order to give Dustin Tokarski the job as our starting goalie is hilarious.

Of this smorgasbord of names you've put together (which is ironically quite mediocre), the only one I would bet on having a better season than MAF is Miller, and we can't afford him.

 

[Pharrell Williams]

I'm absolutely terrified of trading away Pouliot because I'm scared he will be really good. Luckily, I think the organization feels the same way. Unluckily, the organization is changing so the new GM might feel differently about Pouliot, ohno.

Also, good job Bob Cole.

 

[Til the End of Time]

None of these guys fit this conversation. You said that there were plenty of guys who could equal or better Fleury's stats at better prices. Well, your first two guys have a combined 80 games of NHL experience. I hope you would agree that a team with Cup aspirations shouldn't just hand its starting goaltending position to a guy with half a season worth of experience to show for himself.

As for Miller, he's going to command a LOT more than $5M, and if our fans think Fleury's a headcase...



Reimer lost a starting job playing for the Leafs.

Jones has 19 games of NHL experience.

The Senators are doubtless not trading their starting goaltender with no contingency plan.

The idea of trading assets in order to give Dustin Tokarski the job as our starting goalie is hilarious.

Of this scarp heap of names you've put together, the only one I would bet on having a better season than MAF is Miller, and we can't afford him.

it makes more sense than a team with cup aspirations relying on one of the worst playoff goalies of all-time.

 

[BobCole]

it makes more sense than a team with cup aspirations relying on one of the worst playoff goalies of all-time.

Our fanbase loves superlatives. MAF had a few very bad playoff series. He's also had several good ones. This most recent post season, he had one miserable game against the Jackets and that aside he was very good.

To be clear, I'm not an ardent Fleury fan. If there were better options available on the market I'd be happy to kick tires on them. But look at the list this guy dredged up. A bunch of guys who have literally no experience and a UFA Ryan Miller set to go for more than we can afford. The way I see it, MAF is our best option for the coming season.

FWIW, I proposed a lineup the other day that had Halak in that job @ $4M/yr., so again, it's not as though I'm some sort of MAF apologist.

 

[BHD]

Some ufa guys,

Stalock

Peters

Miller

Some goalies who might be available by trade

Reimer

Jones

Anderson

If this Tokarski keeps up his play i'd go after him.


There are so many mediocre goalies available, like i said they aren't hard to get, last year at the deadline another mediocre goalie Ben Scrivens got traded for a 3rd round pick, you don't even have to give up much to get one of these guys.

Jonas Hiller is another possibility.

 

[Jacob]

I'd be comfortable with (but not ecstatic about) Hiller if it's a reasonable cap hit (possibly even less than Fleury's current hit) and not too long, which I think is reasonable to expect based on the season he's coming off and what Halak just signed for.

For example, sign Hiller at 1 year, $4 million and you not only upgrade your playoff goaltending but you save a million bucks that can go towards a top-6 winger.

 

[drpepper]

Jonas Hiller is another possibility.

Hiller is a downgrade and is just as bad or worse in the playoffs so far.

 

[Til the End of Time]

Our fanbase loves superlatives. MAF had a few very bad playoff series. He's also had several good ones. This most recent post season, he had one miserable game against the Jackets and that aside he was very good.

To be clear, I'm not an ardent Fleury fan. If there were better options available on the market I'd be happy to kick tires on them. But look at the list you dredged up. A bunch of guys who have literally no experience and a UFA Ryan Miller set to go for more than we can afford. The way I see it, MAF is our best option for the coming season.

FWIW, I proposed a lineup the other day that had Halak in that job @ $4M/yr., so again, it's not as though I'm some sort of MAF apologist.

he had some of the worst postseasons of all-time, for several years in a row. he has some of the worst postseason stats of all-time, thats not an exaggeration.

he "rebounded" this year by having a mediocre postseason-- i certainly dont think he was "very good." he allowed one bad goal per game quite frequently.

he was very good in '08 and good in '09.

he has been awful throughout his career in pressure situations outside of the nhl.

his overall body of work does not suggest he is an average goalie. maybe average in the regular season, but certainly worse than that in the postseason.

fleury has a proven track record of sucking the playoffs. at least those other guys have a chance of not sucking.

the goaltending market is even worse next off-season. there always seem to be some sort of excuse for keeping fleury around. the guy just flat out sucks.

i refuse to believe he is the best the penguins can do. other teams always seem to be able to find adequate or even good goalies out of nowhere. people keep saying they dont want dump fleury and end up like the flyers, but the flyers goaltending situation is better than the penguins. at least they are proactive and continually trying to find the answer, unlike the penguins that just stick with the known quantity that sucks.

 

[drpepper]

I'd be comfortable with (but not ecstatic about) Hiller if it's a reasonable cap hit (possibly even less than Fleury's current hit) and not too long, which I think is reasonable to expect based on the season he's coming off and what Halak just signed for.

For example, sign Hiller at 1 year, $4 million and you not only upgrade your playoff goaltending but you save a million bucks that can go towards a top-6 winger.

What happens with Fleury? The market is not that great to dump him.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Peters, Stalock, & Jones are the guys of the future for their respective teams; Pens are only getting them with a huge overpayment.

Miller wants a big contract $6 million per with term (6-7 years).

Anderson is not good, and I think the Pens trade pieces especially picks would be better spent on forwards not Reimer.

The goalie market is not good so far this offseason.

Stalock is a UFA, so you don't have to give up any assets to get him.

Look at the trades involving goalies(besides Miller) in the last year, they don't go for that much, because there are many goalies available and there aren't many teams that need goalies.

None of these guys fit this conversation. You said that there were plenty of guys who could equal or better Fleury's stats at better prices. Well, your first two guys have a combined 80 games of NHL experience. I hope you would agree that a team with Cup aspirations shouldn't just hand its starting goaltending position to a guy with half a season worth of experience to show for himself.

As for Miller, he's going to command a LOT more than $5M, and if our fans think Fleury's a headcase...



Reimer lost a starting job playing for the Leafs.

Jones has 19 games of NHL experience.

The Senators are doubtless not trading their starting goaltender with no contingency plan.

The idea of trading assets in order to give Dustin Tokarski the job as our starting goalie is hilarious.

Of this smorgasbord of names you've put together (which is ironically quite mediocre), the only one I would bet on having a better season than MAF is Miller, and we can't afford him.

I never said these goalies are elite goalies, i said they are mediocre, just like MAF, and they would put up similar stats to MAF for a much better salary.

These goalies are backup goalies who haven't got a chance to be the starter, when they did get a chance they put up solid numbers, every goalie i listed put up better numbers then MAF this year except for Reimer who played behind one of the worst def in the league.


Two years ago Khudobin was solid for Boston, he signed with the Canes got a chance to be a starter and put up a 926 save percentage, if those backup goalies i listed got a chance to be the starter i bet they would at least put up similar numbers to MAF if not better.

BTW i was talking about Frederik Anderson.

 

[drpepper]

Stalock is a UFA, so you don't have to give up any assets to get him.

Look at the trades involving goalies(besides Miller) in the last year, they don't go for that much, because there are many goalies available and there aren't many teams that need goalies.





I never said these goalies are elite goalies, i said they are mediocre, just like MAF, and they would put up similar stats to MAF for a much better salary.

These goalies are backup goalies who haven't got a chance to be the starter, when they did get a chance they put up solid numbers, every goalie i listed put up better numbers then MAF this year except for Reimer who played behind one of the worst def in the league.


Two years ago Khudobin was solid for Boston, he signed with the Canes got a chance to be a starter and put up a 926 save percentage, if those backup goalies i listed got a chance to be the starter i bet they would at least put up similar numbers to MAF if not better.

BTW i was talking about Frederik Anderson.

SJS has said that Stalock is their guy. Pens will have to offer a much better contract than SJS.

Not all of these goalies are coming out of a good goalie program like Boston who has regularly produced good goalies. Some back ups stay back ups for a reason.

People are betting these back ups can put up as numbers as good as Fleury playing 60+ games plus play better in the playoffs. I think that is a poor bet.