2014-2015 General Wild Discussion Thread III

[AKL]

And Yeo complains that the #2 unit doesn't produce.

They have no chance to produce. The only thing he uses them for is to get the #1 unit on the bench for 15 seconds before sending them back out.

I don't think Yeo knows he doesn't give them a fair shot.

“If we could get a little more production from that second group, I always like the competition,” Yeo said. “If you have a minute, make sure you get the most of it. With that said, if you’ve got 30 seconds, that’s 30 seconds that somebody else on the team would like to have, so make sure you take advantage of it."

Like what does he want from them? 30 seconds is not enough to produce, especially when, as Russo said:

I’ve got to think it’s tough for the second unit to get into rhythms when they’re only getting 35-45 seconds a shift it seems, and that always starts with a regroup obviously.

 

[Spurgeon]

The #2PP didn't have a play-making center for 13 games. Their usage will jump up.

And why is the PP even a complaint at this point, they're at like 20-21% in the past 20 games or so.

 

[rynryn]

The #2PP didn't have a play-making center for 13 games. Their usage will jump up.

And why is the PP even a complaint at this point, they're at like 20-21% in the past 20 games or so.

it's very perplexing. essentially complaining about a top 10 PP performance.

 

[Wild11MN]

The #2PP didn't have a play-making center for 13 games. Their usage will jump up.

And why is the PP even a complaint at this point, they're at like 20-21% in the past 20 games or so.

This is what I've been asking. Our PP doesn't always look good, but it's connecting at a solid rate right now. I don't get the complaining either.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

To me, it just seems that when we really need one, either to break a tie or put a team away (i.e. the 2nd period against Nashville), it's just a given that they're not going to score. So the overall % is good, but the "clutchness" continues to be lacking. And I don't mean lacking in just goals, I mean lacking in overall competency, zone time, and at least a prime scoring opportunity.

 

[AKL]

This is what I've been asking. Our PP doesn't always look good, but it's connecting at a solid rate right now. I don't get the complaining either.

The complaining, at least for me these days, is the double standard. That PP1 has never felt any pressure, because it's going to stay the same no matter what they do. Yes they've been better overall lately, but even in games when they look awful, it's still the same 5 guys marched onto the ice every time.

On top of that, they get 1:30 to ever :30 the PP2 gets.

Fine, PP1 is producing lately, so I'll let the fact that they're the only ones who get chances slide.

But then Yeo comes out and says he needs to see more production from PP2? I'm sorry, but often times, PP1 looks just as bad as PP2, and they still get 2-3x as much time as them. That's not even looking at when they're deployed. PP1 is always on at the initial faceoff, they'll get a minute or a minute and a half of playing time, dump the puck into the D zone, and PP2 has to come in and immediately try to get the puck back before they can even do anything. All of a sudden they only have 20 seconds once they have it, and so when they get in the O-zone and can't set up, of course it looks a lot worse because they failed 1/1 opportunities, whereas the PP1 only failed 2/4.

If you're only going to use one PP unit, fine, they're finally producing so I guess you get a pass. But don't complain about the other one not producing.

 

[nickschultzfan]

To me, it just seems that when we really need one, either to break a tie or put a team away (i.e. the 2nd period against Nashville), it's just a given that they're not going to score. So the overall % is good, but the "clutchness" continues to be lacking. And I don't mean lacking in just goals, I mean lacking in overall competency, zone time, and at least a prime scoring opportunity.

I've never seen a forward group that took so many "risks" on the break-out, neutral zone, and on the perimeter of the Ozone, but absolutely refused to take a more justified risk of making a move to get the puck to the center of the ice and putting the puck on net.

Vanek thinks its fine to pass to nobody in the Dzone, or Pominville just lets pucks go right by him, or Koivu drops his shoulder and drives away from the goal, and nobody just steps in and tries to get the puck on net.

 

[57special]

I've never seen a forward group that took so many "risks" on the break-out, neutral zone, and on the perimeter of the Ozone, but absolutely refused to take a more justified risk of making a move to get the puck to the center of the ice and putting the puck on net.

Vanek thinks its fine to pass to nobody in the Dzone, or Pominville just lets pucks go right by him, or Koivu drops his shoulder and drives away from the goal, and nobody just steps in and tries to get the puck on net.

We all know why, though, right? Going to the net hurts. Some guys, like Parise, will do it all night long, others will watch Parise do it all night long.

 

[DrPP]

So against Edmonton, after Yeo has admitted Suter's minutes need to be reduced, Suter plays close to 30 minutes again.

Chicago fired the GM that put together a Stanley Cup team due to a mistake he made (and went on to win another one). Minnesota won't even fire a coach who can't handle the minutes of defensemen. Chicago held people responsible; Minnesota does not.

The reality I struggle with is that the Wild will remain mediocre for the foreseeable future. That's the reality. My hopes that they'd become an elite organization are no more. Mediocrity is acceptable for the organization. Last year is as good as it is ever going to get.

 

[Wild11MN]

Did I correctly see the stat last night that we're like 19-3-1 when we get league-average goaltending? (Save pct wise)

This could be a little misleading, but suggests this team isn't as bad as we declare sometimes.

 

[Spurgeon]

So against Edmonton, after Yeo has admitted Suter's minutes need to be reduced, Suter plays close to 30 minutes again.

Chicago fired the GM that put together a Stanley Cup team due to a mistake he made (and went on to win another one). Minnesota won't even fire a coach who can't handle the minutes of defensemen. Chicago held people responsible; Minnesota does not.

The reality I struggle with is that the Wild will remain mediocre for the foreseeable future. That's the reality. My hopes that they'd become an elite organization are no more. Mediocrity is acceptable for the organization. Last year is as good as it is ever going to get.

Lol. Such embarrassing pessimism. Yeo doesn't control defensive pairs, Rick Wilson does. As the guy above me said, we're 19-3-1 with average goaltending. Our organization isn't mediocre because of Suter's TOI.

 

[tomgilbertfan]

Lol. Such embarrassing pessimism. Yeo doesn't control defensive pairs, Rick Wilson does. As the guy above me said, we're 19-3-1 with average goaltending. Our organization isn't mediocre because of Suter's TOI.

So you're saying the head coach says that we need to reduce Suter's minutes, and he's completely powerless to over-rule his assistants?

"Hey Rick, we should really get Suter's minutes down"
"I don't think so, Mike."
"...alrght"

 

[Spurgeon]

So you're saying the head coach says that we need to reduce Suter's minutes, and he's completely powerless to over-rule his assistants?

"Hey Rick, we should really get Suter's minutes down"
"I don't think so, Mike."
"...alrght"

Putting the blame solely on Yeo is ridiculous. The assertion we should fire him because we play the league's defensive workhorse 30 minutes a game and Fletchers inability to fire him because of this is the reason we're mediocre, is just flat out dumb.

I don't think Yeo is on the bench looking over TOI stats and then telling Rick he needs to stop playing Surer because he's over his threshold. Yeo has said Suter needs to cut back on ice time, there's plenty of things happening in a game where he can't have all the responsibility for Wilson playing Suter 30 mins a game.

Yeo can tell Wilson he needs to cut back on Suters time, but Wilson needs to take that advice and lower his TOI.

 

[AKL]

Lol. Such embarrassing pessimism. Yeo doesn't control defensive pairs, Rick Wilson does. As the guy above me said, we're 19-3-1 with average goaltending. Our organization isn't mediocre because of Suter's TOI.

Embarrassing pessimism? The teams been the same way for 15 years. Mediocrity is the norm, and has been for 15 years. The only ones that should be embarrassed are the guys operating the organization. We're supposed to have the best roster we've ever had, and we're still 20th in the league. The best we can hope for this season, realistically, is sneaking in to 8th place, maybe 7th again. Plenty of coaching changes, plenty of management changes, plenty of player changes. Still mediocre. If not everyone is as optimistic as you that things are going to somehow get better, it's not without reason.

Putting the blame solely on Yeo is ridiculous. The assertion we should fire him because we play the league's defensive workhorse 30 minutes a game and Fletchers inability to fire him because of this is the reason we're mediocre, is just flat out dumb.

I don't think Yeo is on the bench looking over TOI stats and then telling Rick he needs to stop playing Surer because he's over his threshold. Yeo has said Suter needs to cut back on ice time, there's plenty of things happening in a game where he can't have all the responsibility for Wilson playing Suter 30 mins a game.

Yeo can tell Wilson he needs to cut back on Suters time, but Wilson needs to take that advice and lower his TOI.

All matters of coaching still go through Yeo's desk. He's still the end-all-be-all. If Yeo tells Wilson that Suter needs to play less, you can bet Wilson is going to play him less, because Wilson doesn't want to lose his job either.

If Suter's still playing half an hour a game, it's because Yeo is ok with it.

 

[nickschultzfan]

The Wild have been stuck mediocrity for 15 years because they wasted the first decade. The modern NHL, being a new franchise should be viewed as an advantage. You can tank for 5 years, grabbing a ton of elite talent, and nobody really will give the team or GM grief.

But the Wild have to pick an initial GM who is complete garbage at drafting and developing talent. So
the only assets on the team were the few no brainer picks and nothing else. And then get a coach who played boring hockey to get the team to overperform so our draft pick falls.

2003 was awesome, but I would trade that for a do over of the entire DR era.

 

[AKL]

I'm just wondering when this organization is going to stop using cheap cop-outs and actually put up these results we're supposed to have. Sometimes it's a new one, sometimes it's one from the past, but it's always an excuse.

Regardless of goaltending this year, we should be higher than where we are. Mumps, norovirus, injuries, they're not excuses. St. Louis and Anaheim started the mumps, and they're both at the top of the West. Every single team has injuries and illnesses. This team has been on the free fall since before Bob and JP died too, and I'm not trying to downplay both of those, but they aren't the reasons we're not doing well this season.

Despite what many people here think, I actually want this team to succeed. I'd just like to actually see it happen once instead of the team under-performing and finding some excuse to blame it on.

How much longer are we going to hold on to the "well, DR screwed this organization up" excuse too? It's been 6 years. At some point, current management and ownership has to start taking on some responsibility.

 

[Spurgeon]

Embarrassing pessimism? The teams been the same way for 15 years. Mediocrity is the norm, and has been for 15 years. The only ones that should be embarrassed are the guys operating the organization. We're supposed to have the best roster we've ever had, and we're still 20th in the league. The best we can hope for this season, realistically, is sneaking in to 8th place, maybe 7th again. Plenty of coaching changes, plenty of management changes, plenty of player changes. Still mediocre. If not everyone is as optimistic as you that things are going to somehow get better, it's not without reason.



All matters of coaching still go through Yeo's desk. He's still the end-all-be-all. If Yeo tells Wilson that Suter needs to play less, you can bet Wilson is going to play him less, because Wilson doesn't want to lose his job either.

If Suter's still playing half an hour a game, it's because Yeo is ok with it.

Expansion teams normally don't come out of the gate hot, so the mediocrity should have been expected. The Wild really haven't been a mediocre team during Yeo's tenure, they're absolutely underperforming this year and the goaltending is definitely the major culprit.

Yeo has publicly stated he wants Suter to have less ice time, he would definitely not do that if he was okay with Suter logging half an hour of ice time a night. Especially considering he's still getting 30 minutes, Yeo wouldn't have made the initial comment if he didn't even make an attempt to reduce Suter's minutes because then it results in a conversation like this.

Yeo does have control of Assistant coaches, but Fletcher is the supreme leader in that regard. Rick Wilson doesn't deserve a pass for playing Suter for 30 minutes and Yeo doesn't deserve all of the blame for him playing 30 minutes a game.

And the fact that Fletcher won't fire Yeo over this, is most definitely not the reason we're a "mediocre" organization.

 

[AKL]

Expansion teams normally don't come out of the gate hot, so the mediocrity should have been expected. The Wild really haven't been a mediocre team during Yeo's tenure, they're absolutely underperforming this year and the goaltending is definitely the major culprit.

We've been around for 15 years, let's stop using the "expansion team" excuse.

So are you saying you're ok with this team under-performing, because we're supposed to be better on paper? Like once we get an average goaltender, we're going to be one of the best teams in the West? Our goaltending carried us last year and we finished 7th in the West. Yes, it's a playoff spot, but it's not the playoff spot you strive for.

Goaltending is a major culprit this year, but it's definitely not the only culprit (and again, injuries and illnesses aren't an excuse either).

Oh, and the Wild have absolutely been a mediocre team throughout Yeo's tenure. One season of missed playoffs, one 8th seed where we got embarrassed in the first round, and one 7th seed where we barely got out of the first round. This year looks to be closer to a lost year than anything, again. Both playoffs years we barely snuck in. That's pretty average, nothing spectacular about those finishes.

Oh, and his jobs been questioned all four years.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

The Wild have been stuck mediocrity for 15 years because they wasted the first decade. The modern NHL, being a new franchise should be viewed as an advantage. You can tank for 5 years, grabbing a ton of elite talent, and nobody really will give the team or GM grief.

But the Wild have to pick an initial GM who is complete garbage at drafting and developing talent. So
the only assets on the team were the few no brainer picks and nothing else. And then get a coach who played boring hockey to get the team to overperform so our draft pick falls.

2003 was awesome, but I would trade that for a do over of the entire DR era.

Even still, we were on the right track until we decided to take collossal dumps in the 2004-2008 drafts. We had a franchise winger, a borderline franchise center, and a on-the-way-to franchise defenseman, all in their primes. Even Bouchard was on his way until his head issues. Those drafts killed us, and not just the 1st rounders, but the incapability of snaring productive NHLers from even the 2nd and 3rd rounds demolished any chance of us building on what we already had.

The division title in 2008 was not a fluke, and if our 2004-06 drafts could've added to it in a competent manner, these last handful of year would've been pretty fun.

 

[tomgilbertfan]

 

[AKL]

Not a surprise.

Also won't be a surprise when he plays 30 minutes Thursday.

 

[rynryn]

The complaining, at least for me these days, is the double standard. That PP1 has never felt any pressure, because it's going to stay the same no matter what they do. Yes they've been better overall lately, but even in games when they look awful, it's still the same 5 guys marched onto the ice every time.

On top of that, they get 1:30 to ever :30 the PP2 gets.

Fine, PP1 is producing lately, so I'll let the fact that they're the only ones who get chances slide.

But then Yeo comes out and says he needs to see more production from PP2? I'm sorry, but often times, PP1 looks just as bad as PP2, and they still get 2-3x as much time as them. That's not even looking at when they're deployed. PP1 is always on at the initial faceoff, they'll get a minute or a minute and a half of playing time, dump the puck into the D zone, and PP2 has to come in and immediately try to get the puck back before they can even do anything. All of a sudden they only have 20 seconds once they have it, and so when they get in the O-zone and can't set up, of course it looks a lot worse because they failed 1/1 opportunities, whereas the PP1 only failed 2/4.

If you're only going to use one PP unit, fine, they're finally producing so I guess you get a pass. But don't complain about the other one not producing.

its simply "do something with your time" look at Zucker. worked his ass off, got results on the fourth line. you don't have a lot of time, but make an impact when you do. i'm going to point out zuckers job on the second PP unit as an example...it's awful. he can't keep the puck. everyone had a point when no one was producing, but now not so much--in fact, this seems to have born out the players' and managements opinion and canned statement of "give it time--it's not as bad as the stats say".

did yeo bring up the 2nd unit? or was it a question he was fielding? can hardly fault the guy for staying consistent--work hard, get results, and get rewarded.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Regardless of goaltending this year, we should be higher than where we are. Mumps, norovirus, injuries, they're not excuses. St. Louis and Anaheim started the mumps, and they're both at the top of the West. Every single team has injuries and illnesses. This team has been on the free fall since before Bob and JP died too, and I'm not trying to downplay both of those, but they aren't the reasons we're not doing well this season.

Unless we expected to score 4+ goals per game this year, which I don't think anybody did, this doesn't make any sense.

Call it an excuse if you want to, I call it a reason. Goaltending is a huge part of the game and the fact that ours was atrocious for much of the season is a reason for our current placement in the standings.

The only ways to combat horrendous goaltending is to allow a historically few number of shots per game or score at a rate that's not normal for the current era.

 

[tomgilbertfan]

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

its simply "do something with your time" look at Zucker. worked his ass off, got results on the fourth line. you don't have a lot of time, but make an impact when you do. i'm going to point out zuckers job on the second PP unit as an example...it's awful. he can't keep the puck. everyone had a point when no one was producing, but now not so much--in fact, this seems to have born out the players' and managements opinion and canned statement of "give it time--it's not as bad as the stats say".

did yeo bring up the 2nd unit? or was it a question he was fielding? can hardly fault the guy for staying consistent--work hard, get results, and get rewarded.

It's an unrealistic expectation though. Is there any powerplay unit in the league that could get results playing 30 seconds per, and starting from their own zone? Even the best in the league couldn't do it. Give Crosby, Malkin, and Letang those situations and they'd be batting under 5%, and probably closer to 0 than to 5.

They need to be put in a position where it is reasonably possible to succeed before saying that they can't or should be more.