Salary Cap: 2014-15 Roster-building Thread XIX : 2015 - We WANT MOAR WINGERZZ!!!

[Winger for Hire]

Phil Bourque just joined the ranks of the mostly clueless Pittsburgh Media. In 10 minutes with Savran:

"Paul Martin should be on the PP"
"Pens don't need another winger"
"Pens need another veteran defenseman!"

This is a guy who played in the League. I honestly don't know what to think anymore.

Madden has been on him for saying they need another defender.

I just don't see why people think any team with that kind of blueline depth would need more.

 

[joeyjake5]

Wasn't one of these players JUST traded this summer!? But yeah, they're untradeable.

Umberger for Hartnell was a wash. If Hartnell wasn't any good, Flys would have never traded him.

 

[Riptide]

I'm not so sure. Those trades me we don't have a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in a deep draft. That 2nd should be conditional on him resigning. If not, we overpaid a lot.

I'm not saying I'd do them, just that cap wise (at least on our end) they will fit under the cap.

Realistically, when healthy, we're going to have something like this.

Perron - Crosby - Hornqvist
XXXXX - Malkin - Comeau
Kunitz - Sutter - Bennett

With Downie still able to be tossed into the mix. I'm not sure I want to spend assets on 2 more wingers. I'm not really sure I want to spend assets on 1 more winger without moving someone out. I like how Comeau's fit with Malkin. I think we need BB or at the very least Downie and someone better than the current version of Kunitz on the 3rd line for it to be effective. I don't want to acquire someone like Tlusty for a 2nd+/Dumoulin, etc if all it's going to do is bump Comeau or Downie to the 4th line. While Comeau and Downie are very much tweeners, they've been very effective for us, and unless we're getting someone who's significantly better then them, I'm leery of spending any real assets to get someone who'll bump them down the lineup (specifically with 1 of them on the 4th line). I'm also hesitant to not have a pick in the first 3 rounds of the draft. I mean if we're talking ROR/Kane/JVR/etc then sure whatever. But Tlusty, Williams, etc? I'm hesitant.

 

[Riptide]

Umberger for Hartnell was a wash. If Hartnell wasn't any good, Flys would have never traded him.

The same Hartnell who has 23 points in 33 games (57 point pace) and is Columbus's 3rd leading scorer, while playing on their top line? What a bum.

 

[SEALBound]

I'm not saying I'd do them, just that cap wise (at least on our end) they will fit under the cap.

Realistically, when healthy, we're going to have something like this.

Perron - Crosby - Hornqvist
XXXXX - Malkin - Comeau
Kunitz - Sutter - Bennett

With Downie still able to be tossed into the mix. I'm not sure I want to spend assets on 2 more wingers. I'm not really sure I want to spend assets on 1 more winger without moving someone out. I like how Comeau's fit with Malkin. I think we need BB or at the very least Downie and someone better than the current version of Kunitz on the 3rd line for it to be effective. I don't want to acquire someone like Tlusty for a 2nd+/Dumoulin, etc if all it's going to do is bump Comeau to the 4th line. While Comeau and Downie are very much tweeners, they've been very effective for us, and unless we're getting someone who's significantly better then them, I'm leery of spending any real assets to get someone who'll bump them down the lineup (specifically with 1 of them on the 4th line). I'm also hesitant to not have a pick in the first 3 rounds of the draft. I mean if we're talking ROR/Kane/JVR/etc then sure whatever. But Tlusty, Williams, etc? I'm hesitant.

Exactly. If we are letting a long term solution like ROR/EK/JVR, absolutely. The deep draft picks will have more value in trying to obtain them. I'm with you there.

I just don't think we should spend assets on rentals, unless it's 1:1 ufa for ufa.

I would love to have a Spaling-Goc-Comeau/Downie 4th line. Having that kind of 4th line means two things: 1. we can effectively run 4 lines without worry. 2. if there are injuries, we have a deep enough lineup to insert Comeau/Downie somewhere else. Not digging Rust into a playoff lineup, Adams coming back, or Spaling in the top 6.

So yes, it does depend on the target. Unconditional 2nd for Tlusty? No. Dumo for him alone should be more than enough.

 

[joeyjake5]

The same Hartnell who has 23 points in 33 games (57 point pace) and is Columbus's 3rd leading scorer, while playing on their top line? What a bum.

Who would you trade for him, besides scuds?????

 

[The Old Master]

Phil Bourque just joined the ranks of the mostly clueless Pittsburgh Media. In 10 minutes with Savran:

"Paul Martin should be on the PP"
"Pens don't need another winger"
"Pens need another veteran defenseman!"

This is a guy who played in the League. I honestly don't know what to think anymore.

easy...he took a lot of hits to the head......sometimes it has that affect.

 

[Riptide]

Exactly. If we are letting a long term solution like ROR/EK/JVR, absolutely. The deep draft picks will have more value in trying to obtain them. I'm with you there.

I just don't think we should spend assets on rentals, unless it's 1:1 ufa for ufa.

I would love to have a Spaling-Goc-Comeau/Downie 4th line. Having that kind of 4th line means two things: 1. we can effectively run 4 lines without worry. 2. if there are injuries, we have a deep enough lineup to insert Comeau/Downie somewhere else. Not digging Rust into a playoff lineup, Adams coming back, or Spaling in the top 6.

So yes, it does depend on the target. Unconditional 2nd for Tlusty? No. Dumo for him alone should be more than enough.

Is Tlusty really that much of an upgrade over Comeau/Downie/Kunitz in the top 9 though? I get that we can afford to move Dumoulin in the right deal... I'm just not really all that convinced that Tlusty or any of the other much talked about players really makes us much better.

It's one thing if we're moving Martin then flipping those assets for whomever. Because then ultimately, it's Martin for X. But to just move Dumoulin, picks, etc... I'm leery.

 

[Fordy]

Is Tlusty really that much of an upgrade over Comeau/Downie/Kunitz in the top 9 though? I get that we can afford to move Dumoulin in the right deal... I'm just not really all that convinced that Tlusty or any of the other much talked about players really makes us much better.

It's one thing if we're moving Martin then flipping those assets for whomever. Because then ultimately, it's Martin for X. But to just move Dumoulin, picks, etc... I'm leery.

he's at worst a slight upgrade over comeau (with malkin) but a major upgrade over the other two. if he mixes just as well with malkin than comeau than it's a clear bonus

 

[Riptide]

Who would you trade for him, besides scuds?????

Irreverent. You said "Umberger for Hartnell was a wash. If Hartnell wasn't any good, Flys would have never traded him." I'm just pointing out that that isn't the case. Hartnell has done well in Columbus, and him not being good had nothing to do with why Philly traded him (it was all contract related due to his term).

You keep saying players are untradeable... then use an example where someone who was playing like crap was just traded. While also ignoring the fact that Scuderi doesn't have the same term or cap hit as those others. His contract actually isn't all that bad. It sucks for us because of guys like Bortuzzo, Dumoulin, Harrington, and the fact we just moved Sammuelsson, who were all cheaper. But not every team is setup the same as us.

 

[Riptide]

he's a slight upgrade over comeau (with malkin) but a major upgrade over the other two. if he mixes just as well with malkin than comeau than it's a clear bonus

Bennett, Downie or Kunitz? What I really like about Downie and Bennett is their playmaking ability. From what I've read/gleaned about Tlusty is that isn't his game... which mean's we're paying for an upgrade on Kunitz. If that's what we're doing, we need to be shipping his ass out of town as part of the deal. I don't even care if the return is a rental player. Just moving him and his contract would be a plus.

 

[Fordy]

Bennett, Downie or Kunitz? What I really like about Downie and Bennett is their playmaking ability. From what I've read/gleaned about Tlusty is that isn't his game... which mean's we're paying for an upgrade on Kunitz. If that's what we're doing, we need to be shipping his ass out of town as part of the deal. I don't even care if the return is a rental player. Just moving him and his contract would be a plus.

you didn't ask about bennett. if the question is is he an upgrade over comeau downie and kunitz the answer is a resounding yes, he's not better than bennett, but he brings a different element.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

His contract actually isn't all that bad. It sucks for us because of guys like Bortuzzo, Dumoulin, Harrington, and the fact we just moved Sammuelsson, who were all cheaper. But not every team is setup the same as us.

This, I think, is the most important point with Scuderi.

With his current level of play, he still has value. He's been decent this season (as compared to the total trainwreck last season). His leadership, cup winning experience, and decent play relative to his salary, is not that terrible. Its not GREAT value but its not terrible. His contract can definitely be moved.

The reason why his contract is an albatross for the Pens is because of the huge logjam depth that they have. If there wasnt 5 guys knocking on the door, it wouldnt be an issue. Its the same reason why guys like DSP or Etem or Nyquist or Oshie might be available. Their respective teams have a logjam at their positions and as such, might make moves.

Before everyone goes batsht crazy .. calm down. Im not comparing Scuds to Oshie. Im comparing the situation on a baseline level. 'x' many players at 'y' position make 'z' player expendable.

Finding the right fit for Scuds may or may not present a problem. Need to find a team that is looking for a vet dman who also has a bit of cap space. Could be tough but not impossible.

 

[joeyjake5]

Irreverent. You said "Umberger for Hartnell was a wash. If Hartnell wasn't any good, Flys would have never traded him." I'm just pointing out that that isn't the case. Hartnell has done well in Columbus, and him not being good had nothing to do with why Philly traded him (it was all contract related due to his term).

You keep saying players are untradeable... then use an example where someone who was playing like crap was just traded. While also ignoring the fact that Scuderi doesn't have the same term or cap hit as those others. His contract actually isn't all that bad. It sucks for us because of guys like Bortuzzo, Dumoulin, Harrington, and the fact we just moved Sammuelsson, who were all cheaper. But not every team is setup the same as us.

HIS contract is bad, that's the reality. Plus his age and production are bad, that's reality. What contender wants him and what bottom feeder wants to build around with his contract, age and production, all bad. Just what team would want him in a pure hockey trade, just name the team. What he is doing on this team is nothing more than blocking a young D, just like #47 last year. I am sure JR has tried to move him w/o any luck. If not, then JR should be fired. Again, the big ??? . why is he dressing for all games. He must have pictures on someone.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

HIS contract is bad, that's the reality. Plus his age and production are bad, that's reality. What contender wants him and what bottom feeder wants to build around with his contract, age and production, all bad. Just what team would want him in a pure hockey trade, just name the team. What he is doing on this team is nothing more than blocking a young D, just like #47 last year. I am sure JR has tried to move him w/o any luck. If not, then JR should be fired. Again, the big ??? . why is he dressing for all games. He must have pictures on someone.

Im not gonna bother with the rest of your post because it will be pointless to try and convince you otherwise. BUT .. #47 not playing last year had more to do with Disco Dan's stupidity than Scuds.

 

[Riptide]

HIS contract is bad, that's the reality. Plus his age and production are bad, that's reality. What contender wants him and what bottom feeder wants to build around with his contract, age and production, all bad. Just what team would want him in a pure hockey trade, just name the team. What he is doing on this team is nothing more than blocking a young D, just like #47 last year. I am sure JR has tried to move him w/o any luck. If not, then JR should be fired. Again, the big ??? . why is he dressing for all games. He must have pictures on someone.

No it's not. He has a cap hit of 3.325m and makes 3m next year and 2.5m the following season. For someone who is a very good PKer, a good bottom pair D, and has 2 cups under his belt, that's not a bad price. Again if we didn't have a young D that he was blocking, we wouldn't be *****ing nearly as much as some do here. As CPF1 indicated, there are other teams in similar situations with forwards, and finding the right trade likely isn't impossible. His limited NTC will likely make it more difficult, but this isn't someone who's playing like utter **** who has a bunch of term left and has a high cap hit - regardless of how many times you claim otherwise.

 

[joeyjake5]

So you are fine with the way he, with all that cup experience, covered Lucic on the B's winning goal. So I guess there's no argument, you win and are happy with Scuds dressing for all the remaining games and the playoffs. I wonder which young D is following his leadership. Without a doubt, #47 doesn't follow his lead, thank God. .
h

 

[Winger for Hire]

So you are fine with the way he, with all that cup experience, covered Lucic on the B's winning goal. So I guess there's no argument, you win and are happy with Scuds dressing for all the remaining games and the playoffs. I wonder which young D is following his leadership. Without a doubt, #47 doesn't follow his lead, thank God. .
h

I feel like you really moved the goalposts from where this started.

 

[Riptide]

So you are fine with the way he, with all that cup experience, covered Lucic on the B's winning. So I guess there's no argument, you win and are happy with Scuds dressing for all the remaining games and the playoffs.

Yes, because that's exactly what I said. There's a difference between me wanting someone (or wanting them gone) and them being utter crap with an untradeable contract.

 

[joeyjake5]

To RIPTIDE, If you can, and I don't know if can, set up a board entitled What do you reasonably expect a trade of Scuds to bring back. A pure hockey trade. And I hope no one would say Scuds for E. Kane.

My response to such a board would be Scuds for a good 4th liner with the pens taking back anywhere from 1.5MM to 2.5MM to equalize the cap hit.

 

[Riptide]

To RIPTIDE, If you can, and I don't know if can, set up a board entitled What do you reasonably expect a trade of Scuds to bring back. A pure hockey trade. And I hope no one would say Scuds for E. Kane.

My response to such a board would be Scuds for a good 4th liner with the pens taking back anywhere from 1.5MM to 2.5MM to equalize the cap hit.

What would I expect him to bring back? At best, a 2nd or a 3rd. Realistically, nothing. At worst someone like Hemsky. But again, that's not the point. You've constantly claimed he wasn't tradeable - which I really do not think is the case. Especially after seeing someone like Umberger moved.

His cap hit isn't bad, and the contract structure itself is favorable, and 2 years of term isn't bad (especially when you consider that he only makes 5.5m or (or 2.75m a season) over that term). All of those things are in our favor should we be trying to shop him (I don't really think JR is).

And if you retain 1m (30%), his cap hit goes to 2.325m and salary goes to 2m & 1.75m... which then (for what he brings) really starts to get cheap. I honestly believe that IF JR was shopping him, he'd be gone. We wouldn't get anything, and we'd likely have to take someone back (not Semin bad), but I really believe that JR and MJ believe he helps more than he hurts. And when it comes to the player I kind of agree. When you take into account the contract, then I disagree.

As JR has to move salary to really bring in anyone that makes anything (likely more than 1m requires equal salary going the other way), we'll see where he stands, as someone (likely Scuderi, Martin or Spaling) has to go the other way.

 

[Michael8771*]

what does sill do worse than adams. this is ridiculous that people really think he's worse than adams

At least Adams scored once in a blue moon, and at least he's resembled a decent PKer at points in his career. Sill has done ****! Adams is atrocious, but Sills an abomination!

 

[Gurglesons]

Bennett, Downie or Kunitz? What I really like about Downie and Bennett is their playmaking ability. From what I've read/gleaned about Tlusty is that isn't his game... which mean's we're paying for an upgrade on Kunitz. If that's what we're doing, we need to be shipping his ass out of town as part of the deal. I don't even care if the return is a rental player. Just moving him and his contract would be a plus.

I think the attraction with a Tlusty is that it makes Kunitz a third liner. Having Kunitz and Downie / Bennett on our third line gives us some really nice depth.

Perron - Crosby - Hornqivst
Tlusty - Malkin - Comeau
Kunitz - Sutter - Bennett
Spaling - Goc - Downie

Letang - Martin
Erhroff - Maatta
Despres - Scuderi

woo

 

[Shockmaster]

Phil Bourque just joined the ranks of the mostly clueless Pittsburgh Media. In 10 minutes with Savran:

"Paul Martin should be on the PP"
"Pens don't need another winger"
"Pens need another veteran defenseman!"

This is a guy who played in the League. I honestly don't know what to think anymore.

Unlike guys like Rossi and Cook, I don't think Bourque has his panties in a bunch over Shero and Bylsma being fired and wants to be malicious towards the current team. I think Bourque is just kind of a dope.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

From the locked Williams thread:

We'd be trading a guy who is 1 year younger, and who is almost certain to leave at the end of the year. You can question whether its the right move in the short term. There is absolutely no long term negative to come from this trade. Would it be better to get a long term option for Martin? Sure it would. But we aren't going to get someone as good as Williams if we are looking for someone younger and locked up for a while. Not by trading Martin at least.

I am in the 'trade Martin for picks, then package those picks++ for a winger' camp. So not a direct return. Value wise, I think Martin gets us HALF of our desired winger, indirectly (ie. in a seperate trade), if we find the right buyer for him.