Salary Cap: 2014-15 Roster-building Thread XII : All I want for Christmas is WINGERS

[MtlPenFan]

That Caps fan thinks the Penguins are the same thing.

Not even close.

 

[penguins2946*]

i should clarify, by criticize, i am referring to people saying the oilers dont "deserve" the first overall pick again.

that seems extremely hypocritical to me.

The situations are completely different. The Pens never actually had a 1st overall, they traded for the Fleury pick and they won the draft lottery for the Crosby pick. The Pens were put in that situation because they were horribly bankrupt from the bad business decisions by Baldwin. Because of his poor money spending in the late 90s, they had to trade away all of their good players simply because they couldn't afford them. We went go from making the ECF in 2000-2001 with Jagr, Kovalev, Lemieux, Straka and Lang to being the 2nd worst team in 03-04 with none of the above (Lemieux missed 72 games and the rest were gone). We couldn't afford to keep any of those players. The Oilers management just suck, that's basically what it comes down to.

 

[Dying Alive]

The Pens were a bankrupt team with a horrible arena situation and they still rebuilt quickly. They have only missed the playoffs 5 times in the last 25 years. They got rid of the executives & coaches who were unsuccessful in the early 2000s. They addressed their issues and tried to compete rather than continuing to stink and crossing their fingers that it would all sort itself out if they won enough draft lotteries. Chicago and LA basically did the same. Nobody is criticizing other teams like NYI that have continuously drafted high over the past several seasons because at least they seemed to have some sort of direction and/or intention of improving. The Oilers change by firing their equipment staff. They have the same on-ice issues year after year and they don't address them.

I don't think anyone here is saying anything that Oilers fans themselves aren't saying.

 

[IcedCapp]

Pens only earned the #1 overall pick once.

The two situations aren't at all analogous.

 

[Fordy]

it is weird, all the hand-wringing and excuses

i have no problem admitting the pens have been through, essentially, the same thing as the oilers. they were never as bad as the oilers are, the situations aren't identical, the pens had some valid non-hockey reasons. but still, essentially, the same thing. it is ridiculous to deny it and stupid to bash edmonton for it

also "#1 picks" is just a cherry-picked stat. look at top 5 picks. uh-oh! we're really gonna brag about being 3 or 4 extra spots higher in the standings essentially, on average?

 

[penguins2946*]

Pens only earned the #1 overall pick once.

The two situations aren't at all analogous.

And they didn't even really earn that pick, they just lucked out at the draft lottery.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

???

I don't think anyone is in denial or making excuses. They were a miserable team for right around five years and raked in lottery picks directly as a result of it.

But the situations are certainly different. The Penguins were bankrupt and playing their games in an ancient venue not even meant for sport and certainly not able to help them make any revenue with the ~11K loyal fans, on average, that stuck around and sat through those years. And they were icing rosters that would make Edmonton fans howl for the "crap" they had through their years of struggle. There was also no salary cap to at least alleviate the situation, somewhat.

 

[IcedCapp]

it is weird, all the hand-wringing and excuses

i have no problem admitting the pens have been through, essentially, the same thing as the oilers. they were never as bad as the oilers are, the situations aren't identical, the pens had some valid non-hockey reasons. but still, essentially, the same thing. it is ridiculous to deny it and stupid to bash edmonton for it

also "#1 picks" is just a cherry-picked stat. look at top 5 picks. uh-oh! we're really gonna brag about being 3 or 4 extra spots higher in the standings essentially, on average?

I think most "bad" teams go through what the Pens went through. Unless you're a good team who just gets absolutely destroyed by injuries (Columbus this year?), you're never going to have one top-5 pick and then be done. It's normal AND EXPECTED to have to reload on top prospects before you turn it around. That's part of why the draft is set up this way.

While you might think it's cherry picked, I guarantee that if the Oilers has one or two #1 picks and then a couple of random top-5/10 picks, no one would say boo. But they have had 3, and are, apparently, GETTING WORSEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

And they didn't even really earn that pick, they just lucked out at the draft lottery.

WE EARNED THAT PICK FAIR AND SQUARE.

 

[Wes C Addle]

how can people criticize the oilers for getting too many high picks when the pens, for all intents and purposes, did the same thing?

Except for all intents and purposes it's not the same in either the reasoning for why the Pens were picking in high draft positions nor the same amount of 1st overall picks.

i should clarify, by criticize, i am referring to people saying the oilers dont "deserve" the first overall pick again.

that seems extremely hypocritical to me.

In a salary capped league, it's quite unique to witness this level of ineptitude. If the Oilers end up with a draft position in the top 10, that would be 7 straight years accomplishing that feat. In a capped league, with the 12th most valuable franchise according to Forbes, that's light years different than the Penguins of the early aughts.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

The Oilers get **** because they should be better at this point and they've gotten worse after some improvement. It's pretty clear that org has serious issues that aren't being dealt with and they're ruining good players. Oilers fans hate that org.

 

[Fordy]

I think most "bad" teams go through what the Pens went through. Unless you're a good team who just gets absolutely destroyed by injuries (Columbus this year?), you're never going to have one top-5 pick and then be done. It's normal AND EXPECTED to have to reload on top prospects before you turn it around. That's part of why the draft is set up this way.

While you might think it's cherry picked, I guarantee that if the Oilers has one or two #1 picks and then a couple of random top-5/10 picks, no one would say boo. But they have had 3, and are, apparently, GETTING WORSEEEEEEEEEEEEEE



WE EARNED THAT PICK FAIR AND SQUARE.

the pens were lucky to get bad when they did, anyone other than crosby and malkin and things would be much more grim, i think

regardless, good point

 

[IcedCapp]

the pens were lucky to get bad when they did, anyone other than crosby and malkin and things would be much more grim, i think

regardless, good point

Oh, yea, the Oilers totally got hosed by luck. No Crosby, no Ovechkin, no Malkin, no Stamkos, no Tavares, no Doughty. I mean, there have been a bunch of superstars over the past decade, but the Oilers got Hall, RNH, and Yakupov.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Oh, yea, the Oilers totally got hosed by luck. No Crosby, no Ovechkin, no Malkin, no Stamkos, no Tavares, no Doughty. I mean, there have been a bunch of superstars over the past decade, but the Oilers got Hall, RNH, and Yakupov.

But hey could of had Seguin, Landeskog and Murray all would have been legit picks at the time IIRC.

 

[IcedCapp]

But hey could of had Seguin, Landeskog and Murray all would have been legit picks at the time IIRC.

But I think a lot of that is hindsight. I don't know how many people, including those who work in the NHL, would have made those picks.

If I'm going to critique anything, it's the Yak pick. Not because of Russian or anything like that, just winger was not the need at that point. Take the Dman or trade down.

Outside of that, I do wonder how good Seguin, Landeskog or Murray would have been in Edmonton. Who goes there and thrives?

 

[Speaking Moistly]

the pens were lucky to get bad when they did, anyone other than crosby and malkin and things would be much more grim, i think

regardless, good point

No team in Pittsburgh grim. But if the team had survived without them it might be okay, Crosby and Malkin have masked a lot of issues to the detriment of this team so who knows how it would look without that.

Oh, yea, the Oilers totally got hosed by luck. No Crosby, no Ovechkin, no Malkin, no Stamkos, no Tavares, no Doughty. I mean, there have been a bunch of superstars over the past decade, but the Oilers got Hall, RNH, and Yakupov.

Hall is good (or could have been Seguin) and they've botched developing the players they did get so some of it is their own doing. Also that they could have drafted other players. They've had some crap luck about when they've sucked. Although it looks like they're trying to remedy that...

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

But I think a lot of that is hindsight. I don't know how many people, including those who work in the NHL, would have made those picks.

If I'm going to critique anything, it's the Yak pick. Not because of Russian or anything like that, just winger was not the need at that point. Take the Dman or trade down.

Outside of that, I do wonder how good Seguin, Landeskog or Murray would have been in Edmonton. Who goes there and thrives?

The last part is very true, but all else being equal take Seguin the center and Murray the defenseman instead of wingers. I get RNH over Landy.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Outside of that, I do wonder how good Seguin, Landeskog or Murray would have been in Edmonton. Who goes there and thrives?

Yeah, that's the thing. None of the guys they raked in are a Crosby or Malkin. And I agree re: the Yak pick, FWIW.

But I have to wonder how well just about any player would have fared, there. I think they did get a little unlucky (though they should still be doing something at this point, FFS) but I also think that they are very much a big part of why some of these guys haven't really lived up to expectations.

It's also why I admit to being a little reluctant to see Pittsburgh be a possible trading partner with them. Those "top players" that they are auctioning off might either be too damaged or simply a big load of busts.

 

[M0NTY26]

i should clarify, by criticize, i am referring to people saying the oilers dont "deserve" the first overall pick again.

that seems extremely hypocritical to me.

They don't deserve it bc they don't do anything to better their franchise with these players. They get them for the hype, ruin their elite status and turn them to average/above average players. They haven't made the playoffs in 8 years, yet they've had a top 10 pick the last six drafts… three of which were first overall and then last years third! Their best season over the last five seasons has been good for 27th in the league! They've finished top 15 (14th) once in the last decade.

They only care about the money. If they cared about winning, that would NEVER happen with the hands they've been dealt, and that's why they don't deserve a first overall until they prove that they want to win.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Outside of that, I do wonder how good Seguin, Landeskog or Murray would have been in Edmonton. Who goes there and thrives?

They wouldn't be as good. Period. They've still drafted a lot of the same type of player and the Yakupov pick is questionable in general.

It's also why I admit to being a little reluctant to see Pittsburgh be a possible trading partner with them. Those "top players" that they are auctioning off might either be too damaged or simply a big load of busts.

Probably the biggest question about trading with Edmonton (also the guilt of sending a player there) is if the players are fixable. Perron isn't product of them so he's lower risk... for now.

 

[IcedCapp]

I took a nap this afternoon and had a dream that we wound up with Semin and someone else. Can't remember who it was.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

You better have dreamt that Carolina was retaining some damned salary!

*shakes fist*

 

[Hottubber]

I took a nap this afternoon and had a dream that we wound up with Semin and someone else. Can't remember who it was.

....

 

[Shady Machine]

But I think a lot of that is hindsight. I don't know how many people, including those who work in the NHL, would have made those picks.

If I'm going to critique anything, it's the Yak pick. Not because of Russian or anything like that, just winger was not the need at that point. Take the Dman or trade down.

Outside of that, I do wonder how good Seguin, Landeskog or Murray would have been in Edmonton. Who goes there and thrives?

I thought they should have taken Seguin that year. Center is always more valuable, all else equal (and they were pretty equal in terms of stock). Who knows how good Seguin would be if he was drafted by the Oilers instead, but he's clearly the better player IMO.

 

[Riptide]

You have resorted to personal insults repeatedly. Maybe you need to cut the attitude.

WPG fans and management and E Kane himself have repeatedly stated that the rumors have no validity. Ladd is the captain and won't negotiate during the season. There is no way WPG trades him without discussing re-signing him, plus they are still in a playoff position.

The cap crunch won't affect teams like Boston and Chicago until the end of this season. Both teams are still competing for the Stanley Cup this season, so they aren't moving valued roster players until they have to.

The Sharks have repeatedly stated that Pavelski is a core member and important to the Sharks future which they proved when they re-signed him. Marleau has an NMC and has indicated that he would like to retire as a Shark.

Leafs desparately need scoring and defense moving Lupul doesn't make sense unless they are upgrading their defense or getting top 6 help.

Also, Letang still has an NTC, and I guarantee EDM is on that list.

EDIT: And no, unless elite pieces are coming back in a Letang trade (certainly much better than Eberle and Petry), I don't think moving Letang makes any sense.

Ladd still has another season left on his contract, and can't sign a new deal until this summer.

 

[Riptide]

What's not to get with that one? Saying that Edmonton is definitely on Letang's NTC is just being ignorant. No one knows who is on his NTC other than Letang and JR.

It's one thing to suggest that a place might not be on a players NTC list when they have a 5 team list. Letang can block a trade to almost half the league (12 teams). Do you really think that there's 12 other teams less desirable than Edmonton!?

It would be different if you were discussing places like Colmubus, Ottawa, NYI, Dallas, etc. Not great places, but neither have they been trolling at the bottom of the league for half a decade (longer actually). Florida has at least been to the playoffs recently, and has a very favorable tax rate and great weather... Edmonton has none of those.

But to suggest that anyone who has a NTC doesn't have Edmonton on it is just being plain ignorant. That's exactly why those players ask for NTCs in the first place. And it sucks for Edmonton fans, because the town itself certainly isn't a bad place. But it's called reality. Now is it remotely possible that Letang doesn't have Edmonton on his list? Sure I suppose. In theory I could also win the lotto this weekend. However... even if that's the case... a reasonable person would look at the situation and expect them to be on his list. That's just common sense - just like it's common sense that I won't win the lotto this weekend - even though I have a ticket.