Salary Cap: 2014-15 Roster-building Thread VIII : To Letang or Not Letang, That is the Question

[Dipsy Doodle]

Every cup champion since I can remember basically has 3 lines than can roll; all of them had much better 3rd line centers than Goc.

Then they've all had better 3rd line centers than Sutter too.

Completely agree with that, yeah.

Sutter was never going to be content staying where he was. So long as he was living up to his end of the bargain. And with a new staff and some actual players surrounding him, he's doing just that.

If anything, I'm hoping he continues to tear it up. There are a lot of teams looking for 2LCs out there. And it's a position you pay a premium for, generally.

I still say any team that has Sutter as a 2C is pretty desperate, but young centers with size, great defense, and (newfound) compete level who can put up 30-40 points a year are valuable assets to have.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The team needs to start taking it's own advice and surround their two best players with real talent. A big part of that is not spending a fortune on the third line. It's very important to have a third line that's effective. But it can be done without breaking the bank.

The Penguins have drafted badly at the forward position. But not badly enough that there aren't very real options there in the next year or two for depth lines. In the meantime, don't get too enamored with luxury players. That's one of the big traps the team fell into in the past.

Can't stress this enough.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

The Morrow saga is bad from beginning to end with the players drafted after him that this team needed more than another defenseman, to trying to 'fix' him and finally to trading him to rent Morrow's corpse who then got injured while Bylsma was failing in all his glory.

 

[Shwag33]

Then they've all had better 3rd line centers than Sutter too.



I still say any team that has Sutter as a 2C is pretty desperate, but young centers with size, great defense, and (newfound) compete level who can put up 30-40 points a year are valuable assets to have.

Past sutter yeah, but he seems to be growing quite a bit since the playoffs last year. Besides didn't you just prove my point? Sutter is without a doubt better than Goc.... Goc is not a 3rd line center on a stanley cup team.

 

[penguins2946*]

The Pens 3rd line right now is pretty cheap, you probably won't be getting better production for $5.2 million (cost of the 3rd line). The issue is that we have 4 D making a total of $19.625 million when we have the younger guys who can replace them for a fraction of the cost.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Past sutter yeah, but he seems to be growing quite a bit since the playoffs last year. Besides didn't you just prove my point? Sutter is without a doubt better than Goc.... Goc is not a 3rd line center on a stanley cup team.

No, because I don't believe the difference between Goc and Sutter is significant. Not to take anything away from Sutter, but I believe that if you switched their linemates, the tone here would be very different.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah. Systemic changes have had an effect, of course. But the biggest reason for Sutter's emergence is simply that he actually has guys to play with, now. Remember who his linemates were, last season.

Goc is a lesser player, of course. But he's also playing with, what... Sill and Adams?

There's a lesson to be learned here in regards to the top six... but I just can't quite tease it out...

 

[Will Hunting]

Sutter won't be extended because he won't want to sign an extension in Pittsburgh. His play this year has basically proven that he can handle 2C responsibilities, he's not going to stick around in Pittsburgh to be a 3C his entire career.

Still 2 years until he´s UFA, so we can´t say it for sure.. I think he´s pretty satisfied right now here. Yeah, he´s on the 3rd line but in fact he´s playing significant minutes and has arguably the better linemates than Crosby right now I don´t see a problem with giving him 4,5M x 5 years at that point, we just have to make sure of our forward depth. If Brandon is assured that he never sees Pyatt/Glass/Adams/Kobasew/Ebett/Gibbons/Conner on his wing again, I can imagine him accepting that extension. Just look what happened with Jordan Staal, he wasn´t satisfied here and wanted to leave to play that 2C role elsewhere.. In fact he´s still playing with garbage players on an awful team instead of competing for the Cup, I´m sure he regrets it now.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't think you guarantee your third line center anything regarding his linemates. Especially after signing a (hypothetical) lucrative, long-term contract. And double especially when your top two lines are a cobbled together mess. It seems pretty backwards. But maybe that's just me.

 

[Will Hunting]

Yeah. Systemic changes have had an effect, of course. But the biggest reason for Sutter's emergence is simply that he actually has guys to play with, now. Remember who his linemates were, last season.

Goc is a lesser player, of course. But he's also playing with, what... Sill and Adams?

There's a lesson to be learned here in regards to the top six... but I just can't quite tease it out...

Goc is a defensive monster, just like Sutter, maybe even better. But the difference between their shots is almost like comparing Crosby to Zach Sill (almost ).

 

[Will Hunting]

I don't think you guarantee your third line center anything regarding his linemates. Especially after signing a (hypothetical) lucrative, long-term contract. And double especially when your top two lines are a cobbled together mess. It seems pretty backwards. But maybe that's just me.

Not that you should guarantee him Beau Bennett for every year, but you could certainly guarantee him not having to play with Glass/Adams/Kobasew/Pyatt/Gibbons/Ebbett/Conner/D´Agostini etc.. Well, unless you are Ray Shero.

 

[Shwag33]

No, because I don't believe the difference between Goc and Sutter is significant. Not to take anything away from Sutter, but I believe that if you switched their linemates, the tone here would be very different.

I like Goc, but i think you're completely wrong. Sutter has been surprising me every game almost... since the playoffs last year. Maybe he regresses but he looks like he's finally coming around.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I agree. I just think it has a lot more to do with personnel than him suddenly unlocking hidden hockey knowledge in his brain. Obviously young players progress but you don't go from looking like a loser (as he did much of last year) to a borderline 2LC nearly overnight without a lot of help. And the point of saying that is that if you pay Sutter big money to stick around... he almost certainly stops having quality linemates. Or the top lines continue to lack. Which is even worse.

There is only so much to go around, in other words. And what little there is should absolutely, positively, no questions-asked go towards finally surrounding the two best players on the team (and the biggest reason for their success) with real ability. The team even said as much almost immediately after firing Shero.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I hammered Sutter last season... I just didn't see it with the guy. But I have to admit, he looks reborn since the playoffs last year and I am now a believer.

 

[Riptide]

Especially since we could have added a winger and some picks and maybe gotten segin instead of a washed up B Morrow. That was maybe the worse dealing ever done since the coach had zero intention of using anyone obtained that deadline even remotely correctly

Wouldn't have happened. Boston isn't going to send a young top line player to a conference rival. And realistically we didn't have what they wanted. I also do not think we could have matched Dallas's offer.

 

[Riptide]

I hated, and I mean hated the trade at the time. I still do. If we had kept Joe Morrow you would think that maybe instead of DP + Matta, we'd most likely end up with Forsberg+Matta+Morrow....
DP might be a great PMD but he is undersized and those guys tend to get abused in the playoffs, I'd much rather have Forsberg.

It's just unfathomable how badly Shero and Blysma misused the youth we had.

He's 1 inch smaller than Letang, and already the same weight. He's the same size as Crosby. Small for the position perhaps... however I don't think it'll really be an issue.

 

[Riptide]

People won't like this but I don't think the team can afford to have another 4+ million dollar 3LC. Enjoy Sutter while he's here and hope that a guy like Sundqvist can take over when he's gone.

He can't be extended until this summer. And unfortunately, I can't see him signing here for less than 4.5m. And I'm not sure how we can afford him at anything close to that price. Sure it's "only" a million or so more than he's getting now, but as long as we have Scuderi and Dupuis on the roster as overpaid players, and are paying Spaling (whom I like) 2.2m to bounce around the lineup, it makes things tough to fit in other nice players.

Just think if Dupuis and Scuderi were not here, that would be 7m in free cap space... or just over 5m after you account for their replacements (Megna, Harrington/Dumoulin). Then us paying Spaling to bounce around the top 12 wouldn't even be an afterthought.

 

[Riptide]

Sutter won't be extended because he won't want to sign an extension in Pittsburgh. His play this year has basically proven that he can handle 2C responsibilities, he's not going to stick around in Pittsburgh to be a 3C his entire career.

This is my line of thinking as well. Even if we were to offer him 4.5-5m, I have a hard time thinking he'll stay. Be a 3C in Pittsburgh... or go somewhere else for very similar money (if not more) and get a chance to be a #2C. Unfortunately I see him taking the latter every time.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I like Goc, but i think you're completely wrong. Sutter has been surprising me every game almost... since the playoffs last year. Maybe he regresses but he looks like he's finally coming around.

Then we think each other are completely wrong. Wouldn't the first time, won't be the last.

Sutter's looked great. And so has Goc, in much, much, much less favourable circumstances. If Sutter could return a legit scoring winger, the difference between that winger and the likes of Comeau/Spaling/Dupes would be greater than whatever minimal dropoff there is between Sutter and Goc.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Not moving Sutter. Too important to this team right now.
Going into next season with Sundqvist though and i start maybe thinking about it.

 

[Riptide]

Every cup champion since I can remember basically has 3 lines than can roll; all of them had much better 3rd line centers than Goc.

I agree with this. However they also have a deeper top 6. And if Sutter isn't sticking around, but has the potential to bring back a young winger who will stay (I can see why Sutter wouldn't stay, but can easily see a winger like Perron or whomever would), then I think it's a deal that needs to happen.

Do I think there's a dropoff in Spaling/Goc from Sutter? Yes absolutely. Is that dropoff made up with a better top 6 winger (say Perron for now)... kinda, but not really. I'm really torn on this. I think a strong 3rd line is crucial for playoff success. But I also want to see a better top 6 (which I also think we need to have success).

I think ultimately I look at it this way. If he's not interested in signing here long term (and I don't think he is - I said this before he signed his current deal), then I think you need to move him for someone who fills a need and is much more likely to extend here. Could it hurt short term (lesser 3rd line)? Perhaps... however we have solid guys who can step into that role, and finding a top 6 winger is something we absolutely have to do. And if he's bringing back someone who's more likely a long term solution, then you suck up any short term issues and focus on the big picture.

 

[penguins2946*]

If Dupuis is out for any extended period of time:

Martin to Colorado for McGinn and a 3rd
Wilson and Colorado's 3rd to Buffalo for Stewart

Kunitz-Crosby-Hornqvist
McGinn-Malkin-Stewart
Downie-Sutter-Bennett
Spaling-Goc-Comeau

Maatta-Letang
Ehrhoff-Harrington/Bortuzzo
Scuderi-Despres

 

[Will Hunting]

Not moving Sutter. Too important to this team right now.
Going into next season with Sundqvist though and i start maybe thinking about it.

Well, we should maybe think about playing Sundqvist on the wing when he comes here (pretty normal scenario for young players, anyway). He has played there from time to time, so it shouldn´t be a huge problem. I would love to keep this current 3C model. Sutter would be a huge loss for this team. He´s playing so well and I´m pretty confident that this is what we´ll see from him in the POs, too.

 

[Riptide]

The team needs to start taking it's own advice and surround their two best players with real talent. A big part of that is not spending a fortune on the third line. It's very important to have a third line that's effective. But it can be done without breaking the bank.

The Penguins have drafted badly at the forward position. But not badly enough that there aren't very real options there in the next year or two for depth lines. In the meantime, don't get too enamored with luxury players. That's one of the big traps the team fell into in the past.

I'm not opposed to keeping Sutter (if he'd sign). It just can't realistically be done when you're already spending money on Dupuis, Spaling and Scuderi. And I don't even think all of those contracts are bad per say (even Scuderi's - in general). It's just that they're expensive on THIS team for what they bring to the table.

If Dupuis had signed for 2.5-3m, I don't think we'd care to much - simply because a solid top 9 replacement is going to cost roughly the same. Scuderi is a tough one to swallow due to our depth and cap issues... however the contract itself isn't bad, and if we didn't have the depth we do, I doubt he'd get the flack he has been nearly as much. Spaling I like... but 2.2m is tough when you see him on the 4th line getting 9 minutes a night - easier when he's getting 16.

In short, 4-5m on Sutter isn't impossible if the rest of the roster is signed to the right contracts for what they bring. However Shero didn't do that, which is going to make keeping him very difficult (even if he was willing to stay).

 

[penguins2946*]

If we're going to move Sutter after this year, Spaling will be siding into the 3C spot, not Sundqvist. The highest spot Sundqvist would be playing next year is a 3rd line RW. It's not wise to put a rookie on a shutdown line as the center I feel like.