Salary Cap: 2014-15 Roster building thread - Part VII

[KIRK]

Bull****, the Pens can win a cup just like any other team. Even with Scuderi on the roster, we could afford Jokinen at $3.5 million, Kulemin at $3.25 million, Sutter at $3.5 million, Despres at $1 million and run with:

Kunitz-Crosby-Neal
Jokinen-Malkin-Kulemin
Bennett-Sutter-Dupuis
XXXX-XXXX-XXXX

Martin-Letang
Maatta-Scuderi
Despres-Bortuzzo

Fleury-Zatkoff

That team would have $5.4 million to fill the 4th line and 3 depth positions. That team has just as good of a shot at the cup as any other team. We can do that with Scuderi on the roster. What if we manage to trade him? It becomes even better. To say we can't win a cup next year is ridiculous.



I'm not even sure they would either want him or he would waive to go to the Islanders. It's not like they're going to be a contender anytime soon. We could still contend with him on the roster.

Sad to think that, on that 'cup caliber roster' Malkin's wingers would be far more likely to do anything to help him in the playoffs than Sid's would be, and, in a bubble, we'd call those two wingers with Sid 'the good ones'.

Oh, by the way, Scuderi doesn't have a FULL NTC. He gets to list like a dozen teams where he won't go. Anywhere else, any say he supposedly had went out the door with Ray Shero.

 

[KIRK]

Yep. Anaheim is losing, Selanne.

They have four guys worth targeting, and plucking 2 of them would be great.

Not that Neal would be traded, but for giggles.

Neal for 2 of the 4 forwards Pelly, Palmieri, Etem, Silfverberg, and their 2nd.

I'm sure the RFA's (Silfverberge - Pelly) would pobably be one half of the package coming back, so...which of the two left makes sense? Etem seems like the logical choice. He's RFA sooner than Palmieri.

My prefered choice would be Silfverberg, Etem, 2nd 2014.

We have nobody to block these guys from being top six wingers if Neal is sent the other way.

1. I think center and a legit 2/3 guy on defense are needs and a guy like Neal would be a luxury. Ergo, if they are to move their surplus young talent on the wings, it is less likely, although not impossibly so, to be for Neal.

2. I cannot fathom that there won't be a huge bidding war for Neal and that there won't be at least a few teams we didn't consider interested.

3. The return for Neal will be better than Silvferberg, Etem, 2014 2nd. Slightly less dollars, double the years left than Bobby Ryan suggests a better, not far worse, package for Neal is more likely.

 

[KIRK]

I would actually sign JJ in that situation.

Kunitz - Crosby - Neal/Kane
Jokinen - Malkin - Kulemin

1. JJ-Malkin-Kulemin > JMN

2. As noted, I would not be surprised if JJ-Malkin-Kulemin were a lot better than KCN in the playoffs. In a lot of ways, a JJ-Malkin-Kulemin mix is comparable, in terms of dynamics, to Feds-Malkin-Talbot.

EDIT: Exit question . . . is Sutter a Penguin next year? I could see a bridge deal, 3M, maybe even 3.5M, but when his agent and Bots talk and his agent wants 4M+ (with the exact value of the + depending on the term)-- and that is what he is going to ask-- THEN what happens?

 

[jdpitt05]

Ah. I don't at all consider Pavelski and Letang a wash. Given Letang's contract and injury history....

This post here is why we don't trade Letang this offseason. Value is at its lowest right now. After Subban signs, you see what Niskanen signs for, the cap goes up, and Letang bounces back the contract won't look as bad.

 

[Corvidae]

This post here is why we don't trade Letang this offseason. Value is at its lowest right now. After Subban signs, you see what Niskanen signs for, the cap goes up, and Letang bounces back the contract won't look as bad.

...and his NTC kicks in

...and he might play worse

...and he will almost certainly get hurt again

Dump him

 

[mpp9]

1. JJ-Malkin-Kulemin > JMN

2. As noted, I would not be surprised if JJ-Malkin-Kulemin were a lot better than KCN in the playoffs. In a lot of ways, a JJ-Malkin-Kulemin mix is comparable, in terms of dynamics, to Feds-Malkin-Talbot.

EDIT: Exit question . . . is Sutter a Penguin next year? I could see a bridge deal, 3M, maybe even 3.5M, but when his agent and Bots talk and his agent wants 4M+ (with the exact value of the + depending on the term)-- and that is what he is going to ask-- THEN what happens?

I'm all aboard the Kane and Kesler train. If you could swap out Neal+Sutter+D prospect JR isn't going to play+1st+necessary cap dumps for those two, I think that's ideal for the present and longterm. Kane isn't in his prime yet, and won't be until Sid and Geno are in their thirties. Kesler gives us a top line winger who will play his ass off to win now.

Move Kunitz for a younger player who can upgrade the bottom six. Dump Dupuis. Use free agency to address the holes from there.

 

[Klifton]

This post here is why we don't trade Letang this offseason. Value is at its lowest right now. After Subban signs, you see what Niskanen signs for, the cap goes up, and Letang bounces back the contract won't look as bad.

Well, I can't argue much of what you said. However, I also don't see him getting us much more in return if we trade him later either. He will get a big return for us now, (if he were traded, and he is not likely to be). But if we trade him now, we can trade with anyone. Once his NTC kicks in, count the bottom 1/3 of the league out. That could cost us the best possible return. I'm not saying we should go out and trade him, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

 

[penguins2946*]

I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that Letang plays worse next year than last year. Like I would bet a lot of money that he will be better next year. No one can predict injuries, he could just as likely play a full season like he did in 10-11. There is absolutely no reason to love him. I thought people here would have learned from the Martin situation, but I guess not.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I'd still like to see the Pens try to trade Letang for ROR.

 

[jdpitt05]

...and his NTC kicks in

...and he might play worse

...and he will almost certainly get hurt again

Dump him

I think this is such a short sighted view. He has one injured year where he comes back from a stroke and outplays most of the other dmen. People forget what he is when healthy. Norris caliber dman who moves the puck, plays against top lines, pks, logs tons of minutes, steps up in the playoffs, puts up a bunch of points. Who is going to replace that? A 5 mill dman and mediocre 2 mill bottom 6er? Niskanen cant defend a wet paper bag in the playoffs. No ufa or rookie is replacing his minutes and impact, especially in the playoffs.

We have enough cap space with Martin coming off the books next year and all the cheap young D.

 

[Fedex26]

If we end up using sutter as a trade chip, what do you guys think about sliding dupuis to 3c? Dan was experimenting with him at center and I seem to remember him doing just fine. Pick up a cheaper 3rd line wing option or use someone like Megna and focus more on the top 6?

 

[KIRK]

I'm all aboard the Kane and Kesler train. If you could swap out Neal+Sutter+D prospect JR isn't going to play+1st+necessary cap dumps for those two, I think that's ideal for the present and longterm. Kane isn't in his prime yet, and won't be until Sid and Geno are in their thirties. Kesler gives us a top line winger who will play his ass off to win now.

Move Kunitz for a younger player who can upgrade the bottom six. Dump Dupuis. Use free agency to address the holes from there.

Honestly, I'm just aboard the 'if you're name isn't Sid or Geno, then anyone has a trade price' train. And, as I said, I think we need to worry less about there being one extra kid on defense or a hole in the bottom six, even at 3C (things you can address at the deadline) IF it means taking care of Sid and Geno.

And, something the rotisserie league idiots need to realize is that taking care of Sid and Geno doesn't mean just getting the right names to play with them. It means finding the best possible fits (especially for the playoffs) given the context of the cap.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I'd still like to see the Pens try to trade Letang for ROR.

ROR is an RFA. If they sign him, chances are they will keep him. If we trade for him, he could sign a one year deal at 6 mil and then walk after that one year.

The logistics around acquiring ROR are full of issues. I love the player, but don't think acquiring or getting him inked to a reasonable deal long term are likely or reasonable.

But once again, if we trade Letang, who is going to eat 30 minutes a night for the next 5 years on our blue line? It sure isn't Niskanen.

 

[KIRK]

If we end up using sutter as a trade chip, what do you guys think about sliding dupuis to 3c? Dan was experimenting with him at center and I seem to remember him doing just fine. Pick up a cheaper 3rd line wing option or use someone like Megna and focus more on the top 6?

Maybe.

Or maybe we just have Sid and Geno each take some shifts centering the third line and then deal with the hole at the deadline.

THIS is why I keep saying THE priority is getting the mix right for Sid and Geno, both on their lines and in terms of what the bottom six guys do to help them get to their games.

If you have a question mark at 3C or an extra kid, even two, on defense as a result, then realize (a) that every hole cannot be plugged, (b) those holes are a lot less significant than the ones with which Sid and Geno have dealt for the last five years, and (c) dealing with those smaller holes is easier at the deadline (i.e., get it right for Sid and Geno and see this year towards the deadline if you're further along than thought and, if so, deal with it aggressively).

 

[Waffle Fries]

Dupuis looked good at center when the line was Morrow-Dupuis-Bennett. It's an interesting idea for sure, although I don't think we can pencil him in for that important of a position until we see how he's recovered. That might be the only way it doesn't seem like we are completely overpaying him though.

 

[KIRK]

Well, I can't argue much of what you said. However, I also don't see him getting us much more in return if we trade him later either. He will get a big return for us now, (if he were traded, and he is not likely to be). But if we trade him now, we can trade with anyone. Once his NTC kicks in, count the bottom 1/3 of the league out. That could cost us the best possible return. I'm not saying we should go out and trade him, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

Yes and no.

On the one hand, you're right. Teams like Edmonton could make a stretch now, knowing they'll never have a chance at him in 3 weeks.

On the other hand, he could have a monster year, in which case, even with only 17 potential bidders, him showing he could get back and another year of the cap going up could garner a better return still.

It is NOT an easy decision, and it's not just about the return. It's about the return now versus an estimate of the potential return later (and all the variables there) and even the cap flexibility.

 

[KIRK]

Dupuis looked good at center when the line was Morrow-Dupuis-Bennett. It's an interesting idea for sure, although I don't think we can pencil him in for that important of a position until we see how he's recovered. That might be the only way it doesn't seem like we are completely overpaying him though.

Well, like Kunitz, he doesn't look overpaid on Sid's wing . . . or so I'm told by some.

 

[penguins2946*]

But once again, if we trade Letang, who is going to eat 30 minutes a night for the next 5 years on our blue line? It sure isn't Niskanen.

I keep asking people this and I have yet to get an answer. Let's say we trade Letang. What D do we have that can replace him right now. The correct answer is nobody, but some would argue Maatta, some Niskanen and some Despres. Maatta, who looked gasses with 80 games in essentially #4 minutes, Niskanen, who was a career bottom pair D until this season, or Despres, who wasn't even a NHL regular last year, can replace Letang. That alone should show why trading Letang isn't feasible right now.

 

[KIRK]

I keep asking people this and I have yet to get an answer. Let's say we trade Letang. What D do we have that can replace him right now. The correct answer is nobody, but some would argue Maatta, some Niskanen and some Despres. Maatta, who looked gasses with 80 games in essentially #4 minutes, Niskanen, who was a career bottom pair D until this season, or Despres, who wasn't even a NHL regular last year, can replace Letang. That alone should show why trading Letang isn't feasible right now.

How about this:

1. You spread the minutes instead of asking just one guy to pick them up.

2. You consider that, if you've moved Letang, it likely was to help the team-- and specifically Sid and Geno-- in some big way. Perhaps putting them at a greater competitive advantage helps the team more than spreading Letang's minutes to start the season hurts. And, perhaps the latter is something more easily addressed at the deadline than the former if you think the team is further along this year than anticipated.

3. You stop thinking this team isn't going to have holes and start thinking about what holes are most pressing to plug and say, given this teams organizational assets and needs, you prioritize around Sid and Geno first and make any other hole or potential hole a secondary consideration (where prioritizing around Sid and Geno means their linemates and the mix of bottom six guys in terms of how they help Sid and Geno get to their games).

Sometimes, it's not black and white. And, perhaps this 'if we traded Letang, then who eats his minutes' question is WHY Ray Shero led the Pens downward spiral into a stale and stagnant franchise. If we fire Bylsma, then who replaces him? If we trade Kunitz or Neal, then who replaces him? I mean, the question you're asking about Letang, it's the same question I've heard in umpteen variations over the last five years. Maybe it's the wrong type of question to be asking. Maybe the answer is 'Sid and Geno are this team's strength, we need to leverage that advantage, if it means we have to hope a kid steps up or make a deadline move to address a smaller hole, then so be it'.

Here, I'll make it simple: I trust Sid and Geno, put in position to succeed, to make up for the loss of Letang and Niskanen a lot more than I'd trust Letang and Niskanen making up for Sid and Geno continuing to have to make due with so much less than they deserve.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Well, like Kunitz, he doesn't look overpaid on Sid's wing . . . or so I'm told by some.

Remember the good old days when Dupuis had one of the best contracts in the league?

 

[KIRK]

Remember the good old days when Dupuis had one of the best contracts in the league?

All of the Pens top six wingers have some of the best contracts in the league.

 

[jdpitt05]

How about this:

1. You spread the minutes instead of asking just one guy to pick them up.

2. You consider that, if you've moved Letang, it likely was to help the team-- and specifically Sid and Geno-- in some big way. Perhaps putting them at a greater competitive advantage helps the team more than spreading Letang's minutes to start the season hurts. And, perhaps the latter is something more easily addressed at the deadline than the former if you think the team is further along this year than anticipated.

3. You stop thinking this team isn't going to have holes and start thinking about what holes are most pressing to plug and say, given this teams organizational assets and needs, you prioritize around Sid and Geno first and make any other hole or potential hole a secondary consideration (where prioritizing around Sid and Geno means their linemates and the mix of bottom six guys in terms of how they help Sid and Geno get to their games).

Sometimes, it's not black and white. And, perhaps this 'if we traded Letang, then who eats his minutes' question is WHY Ray Shero led the Pens downward spiral into a stale and stagnant franchise. If we fire Bylsma, then who replaces him? If we trade Kunitz or Neal, then who replaces him? I mean, the question you're asking about Letang, it's the same question I've heard in umpteen variations over the last five years. Maybe it's the wrong type of question to be asking. Maybe the answer is 'Sid and Geno are this team's strength, we need to leverage that advantage, if it means we have to hope a kid steps up or make a deadline move to address a smaller hole, then so be it'.

Here, I'll make it simple: I trust Sid and Geno, put in position to succeed, to make up for the loss of Letang and Niskanen a lot more than I'd trust Letang and Niskanen making up for Sid and Geno continuing to have to make due with so much less than they deserve.

I don't know, you still need a top 4 that is going to play against playoff top 6's with some regularity. I don't think it's as easy as defense by committee, unless you are really confident in your bottom 4 getting alot more minutes. A top 4 of Maata, Martin, Scuderi, Bort/Niskanen/Despres, or whoever I wouldn't be very confident going into the playoffs with. What if Martin has another bad year or Maata deals with lingering injuries next year? We can upgrade the wings for Sid and Geno without dealing Letang.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

How about this:

1. You spread the minutes instead of asking just one guy to pick them up.

2. You consider that, if you've moved Letang, it likely was to help the team-- and specifically Sid and Geno-- in some big way. Perhaps putting them at a greater competitive advantage helps the team more than spreading Letang's minutes to start the season hurts. And, perhaps the latter is something more easily addressed at the deadline than the former if you think the team is further along this year than anticipated.

3. You stop thinking this team isn't going to have holes and start thinking about what holes are most pressing to plug and say, given this teams organizational assets and needs, you prioritize around Sid and Geno first and make any other hole or potential hole a secondary consideration (where prioritizing around Sid and Geno means their linemates and the mix of bottom six guys in terms of how they help Sid and Geno get to their games).

Sometimes, it's not black and white. And, perhaps this 'if we traded Letang, then who eats his minutes' question is WHY Ray Shero led the Pens downward spiral into a stale and stagnant franchise. If we fire Bylsma, then who replaces him? If we trade Kunitz or Neal, then who replaces him? I mean, the question you're asking about Letang, it's the same question I've heard in umpteen variations over the last five years. Maybe it's the wrong type of question to be asking. Maybe the answer is 'Sid and Geno are this team's strength, we need to leverage that advantage, if it means we have to hope a kid steps up or make a deadline move to address a smaller hole, then so be it'.

Here, I'll make it simple: I trust Sid and Geno, put in position to succeed, to make up for the loss of Letang and Niskanen a lot more than I'd trust Letang and Niskanen making up for Sid and Geno continuing to have to make due with so much less than they deserve.

If we can get a 1st line winger for him, then go for it. But I don't want to turn around and give Niskanen 6 mil a year.

The time to trade Letang was last year. We'd be selling low most likely.

 

[penguins2946*]

How about this:

1. You spread the minutes instead of asking just one guy to pick them up.

We currently do not have the players to do that. We're already entering next season with only 3 top-4 D, we don't need that lowered to 2. Let's say you split up the minutes so the top-4 D all have around 22 minutes. Maatta looked gassed after 85 games of 18:30 last year. Niskanen played well last year with 21 minutes, but I'm not sure that his play was anything more than a 1 time thing. Signing Niskanen to what we would want after 1 good season would be an extremely shortsighted move. Despres wasn't even in the NHL last year. So no, we don't have the players to replace Letang's TOI. Teams without legit #1 D don't go far in this league.

2. You consider that, if you've moved Letang, it likely was to help the team-- and specifically Sid and Geno-- in some big way. Perhaps putting them at a greater competitive advantage helps the team more than spreading Letang's minutes to start the season hurts. And, perhaps the latter is something more easily addressed at the deadline than the former if you think the team is further along this year than anticipated.

It's a lot easier to fill the holes on Sid and Geno's wings than it is to replace Letang's minutes on D. Sign Kulemin and Vrbata. Done, easy. We don't need an all star along Sid and Geno, we need players that help them. We would also be getting an extremely watered down return for Letang right now.

3. You stop thinking this team isn't going to have holes and start thinking about what holes are most pressing to plug and say, given this teams organizational assets and needs, you prioritize around Sid and Geno first and make any other hole or potential hole a secondary consideration (where prioritizing around Sid and Geno means their linemates and the mix of bottom six guys in terms of how they help Sid and Geno get to their games).

Trading Letang for a winger does not help us get any closer to a cup. And again, we don't need to trade Letang to get strong wingers for Crosby or Malkin.

Sometimes, it's not black and white. And, perhaps this 'if we traded Letang, then who eats his minutes' question is WHY Ray Shero led the Pens downward spiral into a stale and stagnant franchise. If we fire Bylsma, then who replaces him? If we trade Kunitz or Neal, then who replaces him? I mean, the question you're asking about Letang, it's the same question I've heaprd in umpteen variations over the last five years. Maybe it's the wrong type of question to be asking. Maybe the answer is 'Sid and Geno are this team's strength, we need to leverage that advantage, if it means we have to hope a kid steps up or make a deadline move to address a smaller hole, then so be it'.

You're comparing players or people who can be easily replaced to ones who can't. Trading Neal would likely give us 2 or so replacement top-9 wingers. Trading Letang for a winger doesn't, unless we're going after a return like Perron and Petry.

Here, I'll make it simple: I trust Sid and Geno, put in position to succeed, to make up for the loss of Letang and Niskanen a lot more than I'd trust Letang and Niskanen making up for Sid and Geno continuing to have to make due with so much less than they deserve.

The Penguins won the cup with Fedetenko, Talbot, Kunitz and Guerin as their top-6 wingers. The idea that the Pens need a top flight winger to play with Crosby to win is just downright ridiculous.