Olympics: 2014 — U.S. Roster Discussion (Part III)

[Vipers31]

Yeah, sure... I will take you guys' opinion over everyone else's.

I have yet to hear from a single non-ignorant person that has watched him a lot this year and would be insane enough to voice such an opinion. He has been one of the best - easily. All that's brought up against him is random cliches and outdated statements based on stat-watching his plus-minus 2-3 years ago. That's not an opinion, that's plain ignorance.

 

[SmokeyDuck]

Yandle should be there.

Buff might not be allowed over, as there are weight limit considerations on trans-atlantic flights. Check with Delta, i guess.

Shattenkirk should be there. but i think his name means poop-in-churches or something in Russian, so they might not bring him to avoid an international incident.

Fowler might make it as a forward, but he shouldnt be playing D.

Why should Fowler not be playing D? Hes been playing top minutes on a team that is tops in the league, and is 3-16=19 and +6 this season. The only American Dman who has more blocked shots is Chris Butler. Fowler has been stellar playing D this season.

 

[Carlzner]

He is playing #1D paired with BEN LOVEJOY, leads the NHL as American in block shots, plays all situations and has these to back it up...
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...NGELO JUSTINFAULK&c=0+1+3+7+8+13+22+21+36+35#

and his team is #2 in the NHL.

Thats fair to say.

I know, it's only been posted 6 times in the last two pages.

 

[Carlzner]

I have yet to hear from a single non-ignorant person that has watched him a lot this year and would be insane enough to voice such an opinion. He has been one of the best - easily. All that's brought up against him is random cliches and outdated statements based on stat-watching his plus-minus 2-3 years ago. That's not an opinion, that's plain ignorance.

My point is, many of the active posters in this thread view all of the US defenseman, including Fowler, multiple times, most likely more than Anaheim fans do of US defenseman other than Fowler. And up until a week ago, Fowler wasn't on most of these posters mock rosters.

I don't have anything against Fowler. What I do dislike, however, is when a ton of people from a particular fanbase suddenly enter the discussion to pump their players tires in the manner that they have.

 

[SmokeyDuck]

I have Fowler on the roster.. but man you Duck fans are relentless in your pursuit of anyone who disagrees. If he doesn't get on it won't be the most shocking thing in the world.

I thought I was in the roster discussion thread, **** me right?

 

[Sojourn]

My point is, many of the active posters in this thread view all of the US defenseman, including Fowler, multiple times, most likely more than Anaheim fans do of US defenseman other than Fowler. And up until a week ago, Fowler wasn't on most of these posters mock rosters.

I don't have anything against Fowler. What I do dislike, however, is when a ton of people from a particular fanbase suddenly enter the discussion to pump their players tires in the manner that they have.

I've been in this thread since the beginning, and he's been on a lot of lists since the season began. He hasn't been in a lot of top 6's, but he's definitely been in top 8's, and lists that have "possibles"

As for pumping their players tires, you did the same thing, so don't be a hypocrite. Just because you feel Carlson is more deserving does not make it any different. If you can pump his tires, we can pump Fowler's.

Edit: I think it's a little disingenuous to say that Fowler wasn't in the discussion until Anaheim fans came and started waving the flag. He's long been a consideration, because he is one of the best skaters the US has, and has excelled on big ice in the past. I'll fully admit that, during the Summer, he was more of an honorable mention. I think most people had him on the outside looking in. However, he has been one of the best US defensemen this season. I'm biased, and I have no problem admitting it, but I watch a lot of others teams. I don't think there are 8 US defensemen who are more deserving, and who fit with the mobility and speed philosophy that the US team has been pushing.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Yandle should be there.

Buff might not be allowed over, as there are weight limit considerations on trans-atlantic flights. Check with Delta, i guess.

Shattenkirk should be there. but i think his name means poop-in-churches or something in Russian, so they might not bring him to avoid an international incident.

Fowler might make it as a forward, but he shouldnt be playing D.

how on earth can you support yandle, then say fowler shouldn't be playing D? good grief

 

[Vipers31]

And up until a week ago, Fowler wasn't on most of these posters mock rosters.

That's it? That's even worse than getting angry over a consensus draft ranking not materializing. We're not even looking at a consensus among people in the know, but at a consensus among posters. The majority of posters always go by names and the ideas they have of those names. Who can even blame them. But using that as a benchmark, as if that could be an accurate reflection of reality... that's not just a stretch. Fowler isn't yet a household name to the same degree some others would be. His name, as the last pages have infamously indicated, is still tied to some absurd ideas for many posters. Such ideas aren't grounded in reality, though, and mean less than little.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

I have Fowler on the roster.. but man you Duck fans are relentless in your pursuit of anyone who disagrees. If he doesn't get on it won't be the most shocking thing in the world.

when people are wrong, or make dumb statements they need to be corrected

 

[Carlzner]

when people are wrong, or make dumb statements they need to be corrected

I was going by the same assumption but apparently I was in the wrong in doing so?

Yes, I get that he plays top minutes with Ben Lovejoy, but that doesn't make him, as according to one poster, much better than the likes of EJ, Carlson, and Shattenkirk. Carlson and EJ both do what Fowler does as well, and according to Corsi Rel QoC, do a better job at it... not to mention the fact that they've been doing it for multiple seasons before this one, not just 30 some games like Fowler. (I invite you to check out Fowler's corsi stats in previous seasons)

My problem is the multiple posters who claim Fowler has been better than defenseman who, simply put, he hasn't been better than. Fowler hasn't been completely out of the discussion (@ Sojourn) but i used my words carefully, and said roster, meaning he hasn't been in many posters top 6 up until a few days ago when the multitudes of Ducks fans came in.

And I know that these are forum posters and not people in the know (@ Vipers31), but... neither are the people backing up Fowler endlessly. The difference is, the posters who I trust and have been active in this thread, have been most likely watching other defenseman along with Fowler much more frequently than the Ducks fans coming in and saying that Fowler has been one of the top US defenseman this season.

I'm not saying I don't want Fowler on the roster or anything even similar to that, it's just very frustrating seeing posters invade a thread like the last few days and make the outlandish claims that they have.

 

[Exit Dose]

(I invite you to check out Fowler's corsi stats in previous seasons)

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67
Huh?

 

[Carlzner]

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67
Huh?

You aren't using the right statistic

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/glossary/

 

[Exit Dose]

You aren't using the right statistic

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/glossary/

Go on. Expand upon that.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

I was going by the same assumption but apparently I was in the wrong in doing so?

Yes, I get that he plays top minutes with Ben Lovejoy, but that doesn't make him, as according to one poster, much better than the likes of EJ, Carlson, and Shattenkirk. Carlson and EJ both do what Fowler does as well, and according to Corsi Rel QoC, do a better job at it... not to mention the fact that they've been doing it for multiple seasons before this one, not just 30 some games like Fowler. (I invite you to check out Fowler's corsi stats in previous seasons)

My problem is the multiple posters who claim Fowler has been better than defenseman who, simply put, he hasn't been better than. Fowler hasn't been completely out of the discussion (@ Sojourn) but i used my words carefully, and said roster, meaning he hasn't been in many posters top 6 up until a few days ago when the multitudes of Ducks fans came in.

And I know that these are forum posters and not people in the know (@ Vipers31), but... neither are the people backing up Fowler endlessly. The difference is, the posters who I trust and have been active in this thread, have been most likely watching other defenseman along with Fowler much more frequently than the Ducks fans coming in and saying that Fowler has been one of the top US defenseman this season.

I'm not saying I don't want Fowler on the roster or anything even similar to that, it's just very frustrating seeing posters invade a thread like the last few days and make the outlandish claims that they have.

when someone says something like fowler should be a forward, but in the same breath is extremely pro yandle, i'm sorry but that is a dumb comment because i've watched both teams alot and yandle is more mistake prone, especially defensively.

you'll get no arguments from me on carlson, i think he absolutely belongs there, but how many jack johnson cases are we going to get? i think taking him and orpik would be gigantic mistakes

fowler has been better than most american defensemen this season, and you can go look at my early season posting history on fowler, i was very very critical of his offensive play early on, the defense was never an issue but he has put it all together, and again we're playing on big ice, we need mobile defensemen who can move the puck i would not even consider any defensemen who can't move the puck at a + level. the bad puck movers are going to be exposed when it requires more distance to make a cross ice pass.i don't want any 1 dimensional dmen on this team, everyone needs to be a strong two way player

 

[Nihiliste]

I'm not sure how good EJ would look on big ice. He's been an absolute rock this season but isn't the same kind of skater as some of these other guys.

 

[Ducks Nation*]

You aren't using the right statistic

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/glossary/

Am I missing something?

 

[STC]

Yandle should be there.

Buff might not be allowed over, as there are weight limit considerations on trans-atlantic flights. Check with Delta, i guess.

Shattenkirk should be there. but i think his name means poop-in-churches or something in Russian, so they might not bring him to avoid an international incident.

Fowler might make it as a forward, but he shouldnt be playing D.

Well done, sir.

 

[dwanmaster*]

1980 gold medal winning team:
12 players and Head coach from Minnesota
4 from Massachusetts
2 each from Michigan and Wisconsin.

History repeats itself, we need a heavy-Minnesotan roster if we want to win.

Parise-Backes-Kane
JvR-Pavelski-Kessel
Okposo-Kesler-Ryan
Wheeler-Stepan-Oshie
Pacioretty
Saad

Suter-Faulk
Mcdonagh-Martin
E.Johnson- Byfuglien

Miller

 

[Jaykay]

I tend to agree with Carlzner here, we get it Fowler's been good this year.

I'd pick him if I was choosing the team but if he doesn't get selected it won't be the travesty you Ducks fans are making it out to be.

 

[Exit Dose]

I tend to agree with Carlzner here, we get it Fowler's been good this year.

I'd pick him if I was choosing the team but if he doesn't get selected it won't be the travesty you Ducks fans are making it out to be.

Firstly, there are one or two people from our board that are being overly dramatic about it. Those posts annoy me, too. They are as bad as the dismissive ones that set them off. Don't lump us all together.

Secondly, Fowler didn't suddenly enter the conversation this year. The possibility that he might make the Olympic team has been discussed both here(at least for the time that I've been posting here) and elsewhere for years. All that has really changed this year is that he has finally reached a point where he didn't look like a player that only deserved to be in the taxi squad. Suggesting that he just suddenly came onto the scene or that he's secretly terrible is bound to be contentious.

 

[Vipers31]

I'd pick him if I was choosing the team but if he doesn't get selected it won't be the travesty you Ducks fans are making it out to be.

I did not get the impression that Ducks fans in general did make it out to be that. I mainly get the impression that we're emphatically speaking up against statements like him making the team "as a forward" or being "too soft for the competition". Which were just dumb and deserving of harsh replies. I would not consider it a travesty if he was left off. I'd disagree with the decision. But there's enough quality in the competition to not get offended by the notion of him being left off eventually.

 

[SmokeyDuck]

I was going by the same assumption but apparently I was in the wrong in doing so?

Yes, I get that he plays top minutes with Ben Lovejoy, but that doesn't make him, as according to one poster, much better than the likes of EJ, Carlson, and Shattenkirk. Carlson and EJ both do what Fowler does as well, and according to Corsi Rel QoC, do a better job at it... not to mention the fact that they've been doing it for multiple seasons before this one, not just 30 some games like Fowler. (I invite you to check out Fowler's corsi stats in previous seasons)

My problem is the multiple posters who claim Fowler has been better than defenseman who, simply put, he hasn't been better than. Fowler hasn't been completely out of the discussion (@ Sojourn) but i used my words carefully, and said roster, meaning he hasn't been in many posters top 6 up until a few days ago when the multitudes of Ducks fans came in.

And I know that these are forum posters and not people in the know (@ Vipers31), but... neither are the people backing up Fowler endlessly. The difference is, the posters who I trust and have been active in this thread, have been most likely watching other defenseman along with Fowler much more frequently than the Ducks fans coming in and saying that Fowler has been one of the top US defenseman this season.

I'm not saying I don't want Fowler on the roster or anything even similar to that, it's just very frustrating seeing posters invade a thread like the last few days and make the outlandish claims that they have.

The problem is people like you who rely only on advanced stats to support an opinion of a player that they most likely haven't watched. They then incur the response from multiple posters who have watched that player ever since he entered the NHL. They then act like a victim when people politely disagree, effectively creating a whinefest. This isn't moneyball, and this threads purpose is for roster discussion. There are no outlandish claims being made. Even Pierre, who is a professional hockey analyst, said that Fowler was going to be on team USA.

 

[AmericanDream]

Because he'd have to admit that Fowler > Leddy.

wouldn't mean Fowler > Leddy if Fowler made it. I have already made my points about Leddy and in 2 years we shall see who the better player is.

 

[AmericanDream]

The problem is people like you who rely only on advanced stats to support an opinion of a player that they most likely haven't watched. They then incur the response from multiple posters who have watched that player ever since he entered the NHL. They then act like a victim when people politely disagree, effectively creating a whinefest. This isn't moneyball, and this threads purpose is for roster discussion. There are no outlandish claims being made. Even Pierre, who is a professional hockey analyst, said that Fowler was going to be on team USA.

I don't get all this talk over someone who isn't even American

 

[Carlzner]

The problem is people like you who rely only on advanced stats to support an opinion of a player that they most likely haven't watched. They then incur the response from multiple posters who have watched that player ever since he entered the NHL. They then act like a victim when people politely disagree, effectively creating a whinefest. This isn't moneyball, and this threads purpose is for roster discussion. There are no outlandish claims being made. Even Pierre, who is a professional hockey analyst, said that Fowler was going to be on team USA.

I've already addressed this. I'm almost certain I've seen more of all the other US defenseman (along with Fowler) than all the Fowler supporters who just started posting in this thread two days ago.