Proposal: 2 Toronto trades

[Jay haller]

A 27 year old defender who can play heavy 20+ MPG and is a decent puck mover having a 4.5 million cap hit until age 32 isn't negative value.

I agree on Price but it's a different position and a much greater cap hit.

Yes he is if he’s a fringe top 4 and let’s be real here no nhl GM thinks much longer than say 3 years and in that same vein doesn’t want to take a long term (longer than say 2 years) contract for a noncore piece which everyone would agree zaitsev isn’t a core building block to a nhl blue line.

 

[Jay haller]

Are you for real?

How about answering my question on what you think Saad and Keith would bring back in a trade with the Leafs?

As for your question we all know how non Leaf fans pile onto anything Leaf related and Some Leafs fans are the counterpoint in unrealistic expectations.

I'm not a Leaf fan and gave my opinion on Zaitsev and provided some information other than just an opinion.

Perhaps you can answer the Keith/Saad question?

If you want my honest opinion what it would take for the hawks to trade saad and Keith to the leafs whilst taking on zaitsev.

It’s starts and ends with Nylander. It’s not a equal trade in terms of value but that’s the reality. The hawks are not giving up a top pair at worst #3 and their only top 6 forward with any sort of size who also plays a two way game for anything short of a potential upgrade and even then it might not be enough considering they probably cannot have two at best middle pair defensemen on contracts till 2023...

 

[Jay haller]

There could be frame work for Keith for Kadri deal but I suspect it probably wouldn’t appeal to Dubas.

But the framework could be

Keith (w 1 mill retained) 4.5 mill til 2022
Anisimov @ 30% 3.2 mill till 2020

Kadri 4.5 till 2021
Zaitsev 35% retained 2.9 mill till 2023-24

With later picks tossed around

 

[Liferleafer]

Then keep zaitsev for the seven years.

Ahem....5 years. When Zaitsevs contract ends....he will be 3 years younger than Keith is now. Zaitsev's contract ends one year after Keith's does....and is almost 1 million cheaper.

 

[Jay haller]

Ahem....5 years. When Zaitsevs contract ends....he will be 3 years younger than Keith is now. Zaitsev's contract ends one year after Keith's does....and is almost 1 million cheaper.

So he also will have made 10 more million in real money over the life of said contract. As his contract does not backdive at all.

Where as Keith after this year his contract is a franchise crippling 9.75 mill over 4 years. The aforementioned trade I posted in real dollars comes out to something like Toronto on the hook for less than 10 mill. while Chicago has to eat 26 mill

 

[Liferleafer]

So he also will have made 10 more million in real money over the life of said contract. As his contract does not backdive at all.

Where as Keith after this year his contract is a franchise crippling 9.75 mill over 4 years.

Talking real money over cap is like pissing into the wind regarding Toronto....not very productive. Try Ottawa, Carolina or Arizona...they are more concerned about actual dollars.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

The first trade is awful?

2nd trade is perfect

 

[Jay haller]

Talking real money over cap is like pissing into the wind regarding Toronto....not very productive. Try Ottawa, Carolina or Arizona...they are more concerned about actual dollars.

Yeah so, we know teams will be lining up to take Marleau’s fake salary next year. But let’s not get it twisted

Keith makes 9.75 mill with while zaitsev makes double that oh and Chicago would be on the Hook for another 4.5 mill the following season

 

[Liferleafer]

Yeah so, we know teams will be lining up to take Marleau’s fake salary next year. But let’s not get it twisted

Keith makes 9.75 mill with while zaitsev makes double that oh and Chicago would be on the Hook for another 4.5 mill the following season

Lol....who's talking about Marleau? And again...real cash means a lot to some teams, Toronto is not one of them.

Leafs keep Zaitsev, Hawks keep Keith...deal?

 

[Jay haller]

Lol....who's talking about Marleau? And again...real cash means a lot to some teams, Toronto is not one of them.

And it matters to Chicago even thought they are a large market team.

 

[Liferleafer]

And it matters to Chicago even thought they are a large market team.

So Keith has a ideal contract then...why move him?

 

[Jay haller]

So Keith has a ideal contract then...why move him?

They don’t need to. Remember it wasn’t a hawks fan that started this thread.

 

[Liferleafer]

They don’t need to. Remember it wasn’t a hawks fan that started this thread.

Fair enough. I will just leave at a polite no thank you on the Keith part of this OP.

Heck ya on the Gudas part though.

 

[wetcoast]

If you want my honest opinion what it would take for the hawks to trade saad and Keith to the leafs whilst taking on zaitsev.

It’s starts and ends with Nylander. It’s not a equal trade in terms of value but that’s the reality. The hawks are not giving up a top pair at worst #3 and their only top 6 forward with any sort of size who also plays a two way game for anything short of a potential upgrade and even then it might not be enough considering they probably cannot have two at best middle pair defensemen on contracts till 2023...

Fair enough but I doubt the Leafs would or should be interested in that type of deal.

I do think that they should try and move Nylander in the offseason for a similar young Dman.

 

[Morgs]

He most certainly isn't, and if he was, the Maple Leafs would be thrilled to have him.

Well he's actually had a positive D impact based on EvolvingWild's WAR model, but he's also rated as the worst offensive D in the entire league, is awful in transition, and has 0 ability to hold the blue line. Decent defensively though, and a better than average penalty killer.

He's trash, but your statement is wrong.

 

[FerrisRox]

Well he's actually had a positive D impact based on EvolvingWild's WAR model, but he's also rated as the worst offensive D in the entire league, is awful in transition, and has 0 ability to hold the blue line. Decent defensively though, and a better than average penalty killer.

He's trash, but your statement is wrong.

My statement is wrong based on "EvolvingWild's WAR model?"

Uh.... okay. So because of that disagreeing with the comment that he's a "solid defensive defenseeman" is wrong.

There you have it folks: Zaitsev is a "solid defensive defenseman."

 

[Morgs]

My statement is wrong based on "EvolvingWild's WAR model?"

Uh.... okay. So because of that disagreeing with the comment that he's a "solid defensive defenseeman" is wrong.

There you have it folks: Zaitsev is a "solid defensive defenseman."

Well i mean, yes. There's a reason why he's positive defensively in their model and that's because he is. I'm the last one that will defend Zaitsev as I think he's trash, but when you're wrong, you're wrong.

He has an insane amount of issues, but defense is arguably the only thing he does well.

 

[FerrisRox]

Well i mean, yes. There's a reason why he's positive defensively in their model and that's because he is. I'm the last one that will defend Zaitsev as I think he's trash, but when you're wrong, you're wrong.

He has an insane amount of issues, but defense is arguably the only thing he does well.

So to be clear: You are suggesting that Zaitsev is a defensive defenseman? And not only that, but that he's a good defensive defenseman who plays solid defense for the Maple Leafs?

 

[Junohockeyfan]

I don't think Leaf fans even believe Zaitsev is a value dman. Whenever i see their posts on their own forum, they are trying to dump him at every opportunity.

 

[Liferleafer]

I don't think Leaf fans even believe Zaitsev is a value dman. Whenever i see their posts on their own forum, they are trying to dump him at every opportunity.

He's not as bad as some say, i would move Gardiner right now over Zaitsev.

 

[Morgs]

So to be clear: You are suggesting that Zaitsev is a defensive defenseman? And not only that, but that he's a good defensive defenseman who plays solid defense for the Maple Leafs?

Zaitsev is a weird case. He's basically been like this:

2016-17 - good offensively, awful awful defensively.
2017-18 - below average offensively, bad defensively.
2018-19 - the worst offensive defenseman in hockey, decent defensively.

It's like he completely forgot there's a zone outside his own. He can't transition the puck, stop plays in the neutral zone, and sucks at breaking at plays at the line. But, he grades well at suppressing chances when the puck is in the zone. As Babcock says "he knows how to break up the cycle", and honestly the stats say that.

Again, you normally won't see me defending the guy as I think he's trash, but your pre-conceived bias of the guy has stopped you (and many others i'm sure) with what he's actually done this season.

 

[FerrisRox]

Zaitsev is a weird case. He's basically been like this:

2016-17 - good offensively, awful awful defensively.
2017-18 - below average offensively, bad defensively.
2018-19 - the worst offensive defenseman in hockey, decent defensively.

It's like he completely forgot there's a zone outside his own. He can't transition the puck, stop plays in the neutral zone, and sucks at breaking at plays at the line. But, he grades well at suppressing chances when the puck is in the zone. As Babcock says "he knows how to break up the cycle", and honestly the stats say that.

Again, you normally won't see me defending the guy as I think he's trash, but your pre-conceived bias of the guy has stopped you (and many others i'm sure) with what he's actually done this season.

I don't have a pre-conceived bias, I've watched him play the vast majority of the games in his NHL career. My opinion is not based on bias, it's based on watching him.

You told me I was "wrong" to dispute the notion he's a "solid defensive defensemen" and then you told me that "defense is the only thing he does well."

Now you are saying "he breaks up the cycle" and he's "decent" defensively.

Seems like after all this, after repeatedly telling me I'm wrong, that you've gone from saying he's a "solid defensive defenseman" to a "decent defensive defenseman."

Surely you see a big difference between the two claims?

 

[Morgs]

I don't have a pre-conceived bias, I've watched him play the vast majority of the games in his NHL career. My opinion is not based on bias, it's based on watching him.

You told me I was "wrong" to dispute the notion he's a "solid defensive defensemen" and then you told me that "defense is the only thing he does well."

Now you are saying "he breaks up the cycle" and he's "decent" defensively.

Seems like after all this, after repeatedly telling me I'm wrong, that you've gone from saying he's a "solid defensive defenseman" to a "decent defensive defenseman."

Surely you see a big difference between the two claims?

Actually you said "solid". If you go through my posts I never said anything except "decent".

 

[sparxx87]

I don't think Leaf fans even believe Zaitsev is a value dman. Whenever i see their posts on their own forum, they are trying to dump him at every opportunity.

You can put more stock into Mike Babcock’s opinion - see how he uses him for that. These fans you speak of aren’t representing the team and if they’re using stats to evaluate Zaitsev they’re clueless anyway.

He’s very good below the goalline and defending without the puck in his own zone. He’s also got better offensive tools than the numbers indicate. He plays with Jake so Jake moves/transports/gives away the puck most often. Babcock deploys him to do nothing but defend down low and in front of the net and he’s pretty good at it.

Unfortunately for Zaitsev, without the offense, he’s overpaid by about a million dollars and that’s what has him on the chopping block at times. Thing is, they have nobody else to replace his game if he goes. Dubas and Babcock know this, some of the casual fans on here just don’t consider that.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

It’s Saturday night.
Leafs lost to the Bruins again....

Incoming trade proposals.

Rinse. Repeat.

Update - Then there's the most recent loss to a sagging Colorado team last night. The idea that our defense is just fine as is seems to have taken a hit and is fading now.