Post-Game Talk: #2 | Flyers at Senators | October 14, 2023 | Flyers lose 5-2

[VladDrag]

how would YOU optimize lineup?

I would prioritize my players strengths. I would put my best offensive winger with better offensive talent. I would deploy actually competent PP half wall players. I would scratch the defender who can’t handle the puck. I wouldn’t have 2/3rd off my 4th line lead the team in 5v5 ice time. They did this all last season.
My lineup would be something like below.

Farabee-Frost-TK (11-13min per night)
Brink-Couts-Tippett (10-12mins per night)
Cates-Poehling-Atkinson (9-11 mins per night)
Foerster-Laughton-Hathaway (8-10 mins per night)

Zamula-Sanhiem (16-18 min)
York-Walker (16-18 min)
Andrae-Risto (14-16 min)
Seeler

Pp1-Couts, Farabee, Brink, Frost, York/Sanheim
PP2- cates, Tippett, Foerster, TK, York/Sanheim

PK forwards - Hathaway/Poehling, Atkinson/Couts, Frost/Cates

 

[deadhead]

I would prioritize my players strengths. I would put my best offensive winger with better offensive talent. I would deploy actually competent PP half wall players. I would scratch the defender who can’t handle the puck. I wouldn’t have 2/3rd off my 4th line lead the team in 5v5 ice time. They did this all last season.
My lineup would be something like below.

Farabee-Frost-TK (11-13min per night)
Brink-Couts-Tippett (10-12mins per night)
Cates-Poehling-Atkinson (9-11 mins per night)
Foerster-Laughton-Hathaway (8-10 mins per night)

Zamula-Sanhiem (16-18 min)
York-Walker (16-18 min)
Andrae-Risto (14-16 min)
Seeler

Pp1-Couts, Farabee, Brink, Frost, York/Sanheim
PP2- cates, Tippett, Foerster, TK, York/Sanheim

PK forwards - Hathaway/Poehling, Atkinson/Couts, Frost/Cates

Why? Is the object to win games?
More seriously, I think they'll end up doing something like that,
Though watching Atkinson with Couts:

Farabee - Couts - Atkinson
Tippett - Frost - TK
Foerster - Cates - Brink
Poehling is not a 3C, he's worse offensively than Laughton.

I think Laughton is trade bait, but first Briere has to explore other possibilities (Ottawa).
And I don't buy he turned down a 1st and 2nd without a serious salary dump,
Given how reluctant teams were to trade 1sts this summer, Laughton ain't worth that much.

I don't think Briere is finished wheeling and dealing, but I don't think he's in a hurry either, they've been pretty adamant about 3+ years to rebuild, so this season I think he doesn't feel urgency to move players, promote prospects or otherwise rush things. Even if most of HF Boards gnash their teeth on a daily basis (Dentists' delight).

On the road, I understand the lineup choices, especially in Ottawa. Why get Brink beat up? Andrae got rag dolled repeatedly.

We'll see what they do at home.

 

[mr4tno]

"This is what a rebuild looks like"

Not trading Laughton for 1st + 2nd
Not trading Seeler
Only getting a 2nd for 2 year 5 million cap dump goalie
Adding a 36 year old Dman
Adding a 31 year old 4th liner
Spending 5.5 million on a 4th line
A 4th line the coach has already declared he can't break up
Scratching kids so shit vets can play
Hiring a GM with no experience molded by old regime
Hiring a POHO with no experience in Mgt at all
Both only hired on condition that Torts stays
Call it a New Era by changing the color orange

Imagine choosing THIS path and calling it a rebuild....and thinking it's the right direction.

Spot on

 

[Don Nachbaur 26]

I think it's funny that the sum of organizational statements is that they think THIS product is in year 2 of the 3 year retool.

Just did a quick google search. All I've found is that this is year 2, not 2 of 3. Can you link something so I can read more on that insanity?

 

[Illini Flyer]

Just did a quick google search. All I've found is that this is year 2, not 2 of 3. Can you link something so I can read more on that insanity?

I found this, the paragraph in the article before this quote alludes to him thinking with the talent already in the system means it could lead to a quick turnaround.

"
To him, it’s why that 2007-10 timeline doesn’t seem out of the question.

“It’s tough to tell how long it can take for that turnaround,” Briere said. “Obviously we’d like to see the turnaround starting tonight. Being realistic, it might be the next year or following year, who knows?” "

Parent: Danny Briere aiming for second turnaround as a Flyer

 

[Cody Webster]

I think Laughton is trade bait might be one of the funniest things ever said.

HE COULD HAVE BEEN TRADED LAST YEAR FOR A FIRST AND SECOND ROUND PICK BUT THEY REFUSED.

Why would they change their minds now, for what would likely be a much shittier package

 

[deadhead]

I found this, the paragraph in the article before this quote alludes to him thinking with the talent already in the system means it could lead to a quick turnaround.

"
To him, it’s why that 2007-10 timeline doesn’t seem out of the question.

“It’s tough to tell how long it can take for that turnaround,” Briere said. “Obviously we’d like to see the turnaround starting tonight. Being realistic, it might be the next year or following year, who knows?” "

Parent: Danny Briere aiming for second turnaround as a Flyer

He's also said it could take 3-5 years or longer.
His point has been the same, it'll be determined by the players on the ice.

Obviously, 2026-27 is a target with Michkov coming over, at that point they'll have drafted at least 7 1st rd picks in 5 years (Gauthier #5, Michkov #7, Bonk #22, 2024 (2), 2025, 2026), they'll have a number of other young players.

But until he knows how these players develop, Andrae, Foerster, Brink, Zamujla, Desnoyers etc. he won't know if the team has hit "critical mass." Can he find the RHD that would solidify the defensive corps? Will the young goalies (Ersson, Kosolov) develop into NHL starter quality? Will Tippett, Frost, Gauthier become top 6 forwards? And so on.

 

[tnfrs]

He's also said it could take 3-5 years or longer.
His point has been the same, it'll be determined by the players on the ice.

Obviously, 2026-27 is a target with Michkov coming over, at that point they'll have drafted at least 7 1st rd picks in 5 years (Gauthier #5, Michkov #7, Bonk #22, 2024 (2), 2025, 2026), they'll have a number of other young players.

But until he knows how these players develop, Andrae, Foerster, Brink, Zamujla, Desnoyers etc. he won't know if the team has hit "critical mass." Can he find the RHD that would solidify the defensive corps? Will the young goalies (Ersson, Kosolov) develop into NHL starter quality? Will Tippett, Frost, Gauthier become top 6 forwards? And so on.

I think Torts needs to give up the Cates at center experiment, otherwise I dont see how Frost ever becomes a top 6 forward here

 

[Tripod]

I think Laughton is trade bait might be one of the funniest things ever said.

HE COULD HAVE BEEN TRADED LAST YEAR FOR A FIRST AND SECOND ROUND PICK BUT THEY REFUSED.

Why would they change their minds now, for what would likely be a much shittier package

Plus, by getting the 1st last year, that prospect will likely be ready earlier.

But nope. Instead we signed a 36 year old Dman and a 31 year old 4th line RW when we have TK, Atkinson, Tippett, Foerster, Brink as natural RWers. But I forgot, we are not allowed to have skill on tbe 4th line.

 

[deadhead]

The 4th line has been the best line so far. Go figure.

As far as Cates at center, it's a short-term fix.
Frost is still unproven, Laughton is better at LW, Poehling is a 4C and Desnoyers could use some time in the AHL.
After that, the Gauthier experiment at BC and nothing close in the system.

A top six quality center and a top four quality RHD are the two priorities going forward.

 

[FlyerNutter]

At some point I think we (I) need to focus on realizing this team isn’t changing.

They doubled down on an identity this off season, on organizational strategies that really are just more of the same.

Individuals in ownership that were likely trying to change things a bit moved on, and the fact remains that Flyers - are going to stay the Flyers.

They are going to do it their archaic way, or fail trying.

I’m trying to think of a couple things in the last few years that would show me they get it, and taking Matvei sure as shit doesn’t cover up for what the prevailing trends are.

Old fat pigs in the country club, are content ruining my generations team so they can feel relevant a little longer.

 

[renberg]

My only cares for this season are: (1) Who gets traded and for what? (2) Which young guys progress/ how much? and (3) How many losses can they get?
Losses like yesterday are good. The PP/PK is bad?-that's good as well since it contributes to losses. The line matchups are a mess?-good since it contributes to lesses. Torts playing cooked vets?- good since it contributes to losses. All is good.

 

[tnfrs]

The 4th line has been the best line so far. Go figure.

As far as Cates at center, it's a short-term fix.
Frost is still unproven, Laughton is better at LW, Poehling is a 4C and Desnoyers could use some time in the AHL.
After that, the Gauthier experiment at BC and nothing close in the system.

A top six quality center and a top four quality RHD are the two priorities going forward.

Gauthier shouldnt be a center either, watch how he lines up for faceoffs the exact same way every draw every opponent everytime, its the same two hands in the middle of the stick grip and if he doesnt get beat clean he gets muscled off the puck because he cant use his stick for leverage, it kind of looks like a monkey using a tool for the first time. Frost is the only natural center they have other than Coots and all this time Torts could have just been developing Frost into the player he wanted because now we're gonna have 3 guys that cant play 2C

 

[deadhead]

The problem with Frost isn't development, he's 24, with 100 NHL games under his belt, he's getting solid wingers.

At some point a player has to take the next step up, TK did at 22, and another tier at 25, Frost hasn't yet.

It's a long season, but I'm less interested in how many points he scores than whether he stops going MIA for long stretches - consistency is part of maturation.

 

[Tripod]

Unlike Tippett....

 

[tnfrs]

The problem with Frost isn't development, he's 24, with 100 NHL games under his belt, he's getting solid wingers.

At some point a player has to take the next step up, TK did at 22, and another tier at 25, Frost hasn't yet.

It's a long season, but I'm less interested in how many points he scores than whether he stops going MIA for long stretches - consistency is part of maturation.

TK had more than 100 games though, he played 3 full seasons with far better teammates and a Giroux. Frost has not been given the same opportunity TK had, but hes being held to a far higher standard for some reason

 

[deadhead]

TK had more than 100 games though, he played 3 full seasons with far better teammates and a Giroux. Frost has not been given the same opportunity TK had, but hes being held to a far higher standard for some reason

Well, projecting him as the 2C is a high standard.
If he's not going to be good enough to be a 2C he should be part of a package to obtain a young 2C.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Deslauriers has the highest raw xGF% in the entire NHL among Skaters with 20+ Minutes at 5v5. Feels predictive and not just weird shit happening in tiny sample sizes.

 

[kudymen]

Deslauriers has the highest raw xGF% in the entire NHL among Skaters with 20+ Minutes at 5v5. Feels predictive and not just weird shit happening in tiny sample sizes.

Would you mind ending your post with a "Go figure"?

 

[tnfrs]

Well, projecting him as the 2C is a high standard.
If he's not going to be good enough to be a 2C he should be part of a package to obtain a young 2C.

im not projecting Frost as the 2C right now, I just think he'll do a better job than the 3LW has. Safe is death, you know that old chestnut, so let Frost make mistakes all day you could even put a really good defensive forward on his wing, like Cates, just incase you still havent convinced yourself safe is death, like what does that even mean at this point

 

[VladDrag]

Why? Is the object to win games?

I know this is a joke, and I assume you’re referring to people saying bottom out. Just to clear the air on my stance, I don’t believe any coaching staff or player should attempt to purposefully fail. The objectives may primarily be to develop youth, but that’s not the same thing as actively loosing. I don’t subscribe to that idea.

If a team decides that it’s in the best option to ‘tank’ for the best chance at high draft picks, that’s more a directive for a GM. Moving veterans out, not bringing in spent vets to take roles from younger players, hiring a coaching staff who understands what the process is etc. that’s all GM based. Doing this is going to result in losses, but that doesn’t mean it’s a failed season.

That lineup I posted is an attempt to put young players in positions to be most effective; Give Frost the opportunity to expand his playmaking skill set; Give Brink and Tippett a possession dominant center; give Foerster an opportunity to play consistently with quality supporting players.


A lot of the other stuff you wrote I just don’t agree with, but I am not going to go down that path right now.

 

[tnfrs]

I'd like to see them try a Foerster - Frost - Brink line with Foerster in front of the net, Frost below the goal line and Brink on the half wall. Foerster would be a good screen and he's strong enough to bang in the garbage Brink and Frost both work pretty good in tight spaces and have good hands and solid vision. Tyson and Bob might not be first line material yet, but they need someone with a little bit more finesse than Cates, Tyson already plays LW on the powerplay anyway so everyones happy in this scenario

 

[Beef Invictus]

Why? Is the object to win games?
More seriously, I think they'll end up doing something like that,
Though watching Atkinson with Couts:

Farabee - Couts - Atkinson
Tippett - Frost - TK
Foerster - Cates - Brink
Poehling is not a 3C, he's worse offensively than Laughton.

I think Laughton is trade bait, but first Briere has to explore other possibilities (Ottawa).
And I don't buy he turned down a 1st and 2nd without a serious salary dump,
Given how reluctant teams were to trade 1sts this summer, Laughton ain't worth that much.

I don't think Briere is finished wheeling and dealing, but I don't think he's in a hurry either, they've been pretty adamant about 3+ years to rebuild, so this season I think he doesn't feel urgency to move players, promote prospects or otherwise rush things. Even if most of HF Boards gnash their teeth on a daily basis (Dentists' delight).

On the road, I understand the lineup choices, especially in Ottawa. Why get Brink beat up? Andrae got rag dolled repeatedly.

We'll see what they do at home.

You oppose creating a winning culture now? After you were all about it to justify playing veterans?

 

[Beef Invictus]

The problem with Frost isn't development, he's 24, with 100 NHL games under his belt, he's getting solid wingers.

At some point a player has to take the next step up, TK did at 22, and another tier at 25, Frost hasn't yet.

It's a long season, but I'm less interested in how many points he scores than whether he stops going MIA for long stretches - consistency is part of maturation.

Frost took a step up last year when he was allowed to. You forget that already?

I understand that you have to say these ridiculous things because it's the only option when you feel you have to defend everything the team has ever done, but I promise you it is embarrassing.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I know this is a joke, and I assume you’re referring to people saying bottom out. Just to clear the air on my stance, I don’t believe any coaching staff or player should attempt to purposefully fail. The objectives may primarily be to develop youth, but that’s not the same thing as actively loosing. I don’t subscribe to that idea.

If a team decides that it’s in the best option to ‘tank’ for the best chance at high draft picks, that’s more a directive for a GM. Moving veterans out, not bringing in spent vets to take roles from younger players, hiring a coaching staff who understands what the process is etc. that’s all GM based. Doing this is going to result in losses, but that doesn’t mean it’s a failed season.

That lineup I posted is an attempt to put young players in positions to be most effective; Give Frost the opportunity to expand his playmaking skill set; Give Brink and Tippett a possession dominant center; give Foerster an opportunity to play consistently with quality supporting players.

<3

Tanking at this point is like debating religion. No one is changing their minds. That’s why I try to sidestep it and get to the important bit here from an NHL standpoint. Any progress they make as a team must be made on the backs of players who will be key contributors the next time they’re ready to contend.

All progress made in these areas is useful. That includes failures. You just want organic ones and not Foerster or Brink wasting a season of his ELC because you signed a perfectly acceptable 4th liner in his 30s. They can frame it up however they like. That’s still the core of what’s currently happening.