Player Discussion 2 Canucks That Require Patience, Not a Trade

[tyhee]

I have to confess being puzzled at comments that a player should or shouldn't be traded. If someone offers you more value for your player than what you think the player is worth to you, take the trade. If they don't, don't take the trade.

If in September, 2016 Peter Chiarelli offered the Penguins 19 year old Connor McDavid in exchange for 29 year old Sidney Crosby (and Crosby were to waive), obviously the Pens would have best off to grab that trade, even though Crosby was the better player the preceding season and was firmly entrenched as one of the league's most value players.

Most people when speaking about whether to trade or not trade a player probably aren't actually considering their statements as absolutes, even if worded that way. Most are arguing the player is worth more (or less, as the case may be) than what the poster thinks might be returned in a trade for the player.

I'm too wary of his reported avoidance of physical play to be high on Juolevi, but he has enticing physical and mental capabilities that make him still a prospect, though nowhere near as highly considered a prospect as he was when drafted. Probably the NHL general managers aren't high on him either, but if there is somebody who would give a mid-2nd rounder for him, that mid-2nd rounder probably has as much chance of being a useful NHL player as Juolevi imo so I'd do the trade. If all you get offered for him is a low round pick, obviously you take the chance on Juolevi's potential and hold onto him.

Virtanen imo is getting close to being what he is territory. For all his speed and strength, he's most likely going to be a decent 3rd liner. Some perceive Virtanen's trade value as being next to nothing. I think he has some value and that other general managers around the league will have seen his strength and his skating ability. It isn't outside the realm of possibility that someone might think more of him than the Canucks do. This is not a player that I think we should be strident about not trading if the return is good.

Again, the for the record, imo statements that you should or should not trade a player in absolute terms and without considering the range of possible returns don't make any sense at all.

 

[RobertKron]

Daniel Sedin is a HHOF talent, who had elite hockey IQ. Plus Danny was internally wired to compete and always be at his best. Jake is missing the internal desire to sacrifice off the ice, and on the ice.

So are you agreeing or disagreeing that, similarly to Virtanen, it took Sedin a while to establish himself in the NHL?

 

[Fatass]

So are you agreeing or disagreeing that, similarly to Virtanen, it took Sedin a while to establish himself in the NHL?

I don’t think Jake is wired like Daniel. Jake to me lacks internal compete to sacrifice to be his best.

 

[SwaggyCanuckMZ]

Running a PP has nothing to do with being a top-4 defender.

Likewise, simply moving the puck well doesn’t make you a top-4 defender. There are tons of 3rd pairing puck movers out there.

Right now his defensive game doesn’t project at all and his skating is a major problem. When you can’t even be trusted to take a defensive zone faceoff in the AHL at this stage of your career, you are absolutely not some kind of lock to be an NHL top-4 guy.

The two guys he’s tracking most similarly to right now are David Rundblad and Derrick Pouliot. That isn’t good.

Umm...defensemen don't take faceoffs...Also I didn't say that he was a lock to be a top-4, just that he still has the potential to do so. Let's wait and see, is all I'm saying.

 

[CanaFan]

I don’t think he swung badly on McCann per se. I think it was more of a situation where Benning realized that in order to receive value, you had to give value.

The Canucks were in dire need of a right side dman at the time (and still are) since that entire right side was a complete and utter mess.

Benning and his Pro Scouting team thought that Gudbranson was the answer but it clearly wasn’t.

Crazy that he can get great reads on unfinished 18/19 year olds but can’t even accurately assess a 24 year old NHL defenseman with over 300 games to his name.

 

[CanaFan]

Umm...defensemen don't take faceoffs...Also I didn't say that he was a lock to be a top-4, just that he still has the potential to do so. Let's wait and see, is all I'm saying.

Ummm ... wow.

 

[CanaFan]

So are you agreeing or disagreeing that, similarly to Virtanen, it took Sedin a while to establish himself in the NHL?

Do you considering scoring 20 goals at the height of the DPE “establishing yourself in the NHL”?

 

[Canucks1096]

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040/cull-juolevi-exceeding-expectations-in-utica-1.1196814

Around thr 10 min mark

I will be honest, I didn't watch any Utica games at all this year. I don't quite understand were all this talk is coming from that Juolevi was so bad in the ahl. The Head coach and most people overall like Johnson were happy with his play.

The year before in Finland, Salo even said he was one of our top D by the end of the year

All the people that have negative things to say about Juolevi this year nothing positive.. Is it because you can't get over Tkachuk and you feel like you need to put your anger towards Juolevi?

Virtanen, No argument. He should be traded

 

[LaVal]

Virtanen has been making strides towards being that Raffi Torres type player, who can net 15'ish goals from the 3rd line while playing a physical game. These types of players are an asset to their team and shouldn't be traded away simply because they didn't live up to their draft positions. If there's a hockey trade to be made that will improve your team you obviously take it, but there's no reason to trade him otherwise.

As for Juolevi, I'm not convinced he'll be anything more than a Derrick Pouliot in the NHL if he even makes it. I think if there's a GM out there that values him enough to give anything of value for him you take it.

 

[SwaggyCanuckMZ]

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040/cull-juolevi-exceeding-expectations-in-utica-1.1196814

Around thr 10 min mark

I will be honest, I didn't watch any Utica games at all this year. I don't quite understand were all this talk is coming from that Juolevi was so bad in the ahl. The Head coach and most people overall like Johnson were happy with his play.

The year before in Finland, Salo even said he was one of our top D by the end of the year

All the people that have negative things to say about Juolevi this year nothing positive.. Is it because you can't get over Tkachuk and you feel like you need to put your anger towards Juolevi?

Virtanen, No argument. He should be traded

I agree. I don't know where this is coming from either. Juolevi should be given a chance in the NHL, then we can properly comment on his development. Virtanen, mark my words, will surprise everyone and I hope it's not on another team.

 

[forget]

Everyone except Petey and Hughes should be on the table to trade. (Obviously players like Boeser or Bo have to have deals that knock your socks, but for this team to compete they still need a handful of pieces at least.) I don’t think you should trade either for pennies on the dollar, obviously, but if there’s a deal that recoups some of the value spent on these two I’d pull the trigger. The same people who don’t even blink an eye about trading the 1st for Miller are the same ones who basically start screaming CAM NEELY if you dare bring up JV’s name. Once you put on the jersey at the draft you become the ceiling of your expectations.

 

[Fatass]

I agree. I don't know where this is coming from either. Juolevi should be given a chance in the NHL, then we can properly comment on his development. Virtanen, mark my words, will surprise everyone and I hope it's not on another team.

Every team makes mistakes during their rebuilding phase. The Hawks took drafted Barker and Skille. It’s okay to make mistakes, just not so many as JB has done. Combine these two clearly bad picks with his trades and UFA signings, and that’s bad news for our team’s future success. If it was just the two obvious terrible draft picks of Virtanen and Juiolevi, then we’d still be okay. It’s all his other bad moves piled on that make us a bottom feeder, that is spending to the cap.
Sorry. I’m really frustrated with JB, and just want our team to be good.

 

[iceburg]

It is always interesting to see how expectations, based largely on draft position, drive opinions. There are those, no doubt, who have said from the beginning that Virtanen, and to a lesser extent Juolevi, were highly overrated. But most could see potential even if that potential didn't match their draft position. Now, it's pretty clear that neither will ever live up to their draft positions. That ship has sailed. But to cast them out for anything you can get makes no sense. If they were 2nd or 3rd round draft picks, they would be considered by many as key organizational prospects, much the same as Gaudette was before last year. If Virtanen was a 2nd round pick, came into the league as a 22 year old last year and scored 15 goals, these boards would be over-the-top excited. But because we've watched him through his development struggles and miss the expectations of a 6 OA pick, he is viewed as worthless. This verges on comical.

It's these types of players that have the potential to be important organizational depth that is more than 4th liners, third pairing, replacement level depth. No, they will never be the drivers of the team, but how many teams have more than 3 or 4 of those types? I would much rather have Virtanen over Tyler Motte and probably about half of the forwards on the roster. Sure, that speaks very clearly to lack of organizational depth. But getting rid of Virtanen for a bag of pucks is a backward step if organizational depth is a goal.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Do you considering scoring 20 goals at the height of the DPE “establishing yourself in the NHL”?

No, not in this case. You're cherry picking the one statistic that might suggest you're correct. Daniel scored 15 goals at even strength in his first two seasons over 154 games. This isn't particularly related to Jake Virtanen, however. Sometimes you have to look at the individual players and judge them by their game play and play styles. He's strong, fast, quick and shoots really well, and he had a handful of dominant games last season along with many where he fought the puck. I think it's clear he has more potential and that there's a path for him to realize it. None of us knows whether he will or not.

 

[The Drop]

Fyi

Virtanen was 19 in his first full season. D Sedin was 20 in his first full season.

There’s a big difference between Daniel’s commitment and intelligence when it comes to seeing the game on the ice vs Virtanen.

I don’t think there’s a worse comparison that can be made.

 

[bandwagonesque]

That's what they said about Larsen and Pouliot. Those are great qualities for a top 4 dman to have... but just having those qualities doesn't make a player a top 4 dman.

He didn't claim they did, and he's clearly more skilled than Larsen and Pouliot.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Virtanen is worth less in trade than he is as a player here. Juolevi is a raw rookie coming off major surgery and has zero games in the NHL under his belt. If either become an NHL player of any real significance it represents a statistical outlier.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040/cull-juolevi-exceeding-expectations-in-utica-1.1196814

Around thr 10 min mark

I will be honest, I didn't watch any Utica games at all this year. I don't quite understand were all this talk is coming from that Juolevi was so bad in the ahl. The Head coach and most people overall like Johnson were happy with his play.

The year before in Finland, Salo even said he was one of our top D by the end of the year

All the people that have negative things to say about Juolevi this year nothing positive.. Is it because you can't get over Tkachuk and you feel like you need to put your anger towards Juolevi?

Virtanen, No argument. He should be traded

Some light reading for you:

Juolevi started the season paired with Chatfield. I believe the feeling was he should be able to carry an undrafted, energetic, hard working, second year D-man allowing every pairing to have either an experienced or high level developing player who needed to show his ability to carry a heavy load. The Juolevi/Chatfield pairing was a disaster. Chatfield needs a vet! Juolevi ended up revealing he had to be sheltered big time in order to have him available for the power play and was paired with the team's most capable defensive veteran D-man, Sifers, and he was still everything you, other Vancouver posters who watched his Utica games, and the Utica posters who were right on top of him have described since he first stepped onto the ice in Utica.

People claiming he was getting better and if not injured, would have got his game up to at least standard for the AHL. are wrong. Those statements are purely speculative and seem to be based upon one factor and one factor alone and that factor would be the only positive you can attach to him, 13 points in 18 games played.

Before he got injured his defensive game was getting worse game by game, not better. Probably getting the snot knocked out of him and flattened to the ice by a forechecker along the half boards and having to have Sifers step up and attack the guy and after the penalties were served Arseneau went after the guy again, might have contributed even more to his already determined effort to stay away from contact. After that he never even tried to initiate any physicality on his own in any area of the ice in his own end let alone anywhere else in the rink. He never even leaned on an opponent. Stick check was his most aggressive move. The guy not only continued to play a soft game, but actually assessed, on the fly, where and when he might encounter contact and made an obvious effort to avoid it.

I hope his supporters in this discussion get their wish and Benning instructs Green and Co. to give him every possible chance to make the Canucks roster. Sifers has retired. If McEneny is for some some reason re-signed (he is currently a UFA) after yet another season ending knee injury/operation/ rehab, he will be playing on less than one leg. That will make Sautner the team's most "veteran D-man". Dylan Blujus has played a few more AHL games, but he is only on an AHL contract and has thus, been used in the Biega role in Utica, the #7 D-man. Add these 2 guys to Brisebois and Chatfield and you will have 4 defenders who have played at least 2 seasons. Then we have 3 rookies in Eliot, Rafferty, and Teves. That would mean Sautner, Blujus, and Brisebois get to carry 3 of the others and none are the defensive stalwarts that Juolevi needed to stay afloat while still going -12 in in his 18 GP. I know +/- can be misleading, but in his case and I can assure you he was a or the prime contributor on most of those goals. He gave 2 pucks directly to the high pk guy for breakaway goals and specialty play goals don't figure in on +/- stats. All you had to do to get him to cough up the puck was make a beeline for him and threw it away to avoid the collision that was coming.

He actually needs a real strong veteran defender like Biega or Schenn. If he is sent here again without a player of that caliber, it could end up even worse than last time. Benning has a real habit of sending prospects to Utica without the essential parts they need to succeed.

He can pass with the best at any level when he has time and space. His passes are tape to tape no matter the length of the pass. He, however, did not walk the blue line to open a lane for his own shot or give him even better targets for a pass. These few issues account for why 12 of his 13 points were assists. Perfect feeds for Boucher's killer one timer on the PP got him a few of them.

IMO his play here did not cause me to believe I was watching a future everyday NHL D-man and the #5 OA moniker was difficult to fathom.. He doesn't have just a few wrinkles to work out. It's not just a lack of confidence. His interviews reveal an almost arrogant belief in himself. It's not just adjusting to the smaller rink, though that has made the physical part of the North American game a lot more difficult for him to avoid because players are on him much faster than he is accustomed to. It's not strength, since he has never exhibited the employment of such an asset anyways. Good puck handlers go by him like he's a pylon in stick handling drills and lesser skilled guys drop their shoulders down and hold the puck out wide of his poke check and muscle their way past him. That indicates a skating weakness. The fact that he doesn't take the puck and skate it out of trouble at least once in a while reveals another skating question. This kid has an actual North American pro game to assemble. His European style will not assimilate to the small ice, physicality, and increased speed of the NA pro game and all of these issues will be magnified in the NHL.

That's kind of a synopsis of my past posts on this player. I don't believe I have anything more to add that hasn't been posted before.

 

[sexydonut]

I know it's an imperfect and mostly obscure analogy, but waiting for Virtanen and Juolevi is akin to playing Mahjong and holding onto a prevailing wind or dragon tile--You know it might eventually result in a windfall, but your time and patience is finite and the payoff is never guaranteed.

And I'll stop with the Mahjong references from now on.

 

[Melvin]

People are always too quick to trade players when they have little value. JV improved last year, hopefully he can do so again this year. And we have no idea how good Juolevi will be.

Simply put, I agree it would be the wrong time to trade either of these players.

People are almost always too slow to trade prospects and as a result get nothing for Jensen, Schroeder, Shinkaruk, etc.

One of the smartest trades a team has made in recent history was when they have up on Griffin Reinhart and managed to get great value from him when probably half the fanbase was howling about it.

People cling to their top prospects for f***ing ever. This myth that people give up too fast has absolutely no basis in history.

 

[sexydonut]

On the flip side, Markus Naslund was offloaded by the Pens for essentially nothing.

 

[VanJack]

The only way I could see either Virtanen or Juolevi being dealt, is if they were a throw-in as part of some bigger blockbuster deal between the Canucks and another team. And since the Canucks will have next to nothing left in cap space once all their players are signed, this scenario is unlikely. Besides using the term 'blockbuster' in the same context as any 'Benning transactions' is an oxymoron.

And if Benning traded either guy individually, he'd be selling at the bottom of the market. Better to hold on to both for at least another year.

 

[RobertKron]

Fyi

Virtanen was 19 in his first full season. D Sedin was 20 in his first full season.

They were both in their D+2, 19y0 seasons.

 

[Canucks1096]

They were both in their D+2, 19y0 seasons.

Fyi, I am just corrected the facts and that's it. I am not having an argument about Virtanen vs D Sedin.

The person that wrote the article said Virtanen was 18 year old in the first season which is not true.

Also Somebody wrote D Sedin was 19 in his second full season. D Sedin has a late birthday and didn't play one nhl regular season game as a 19 year old. So technically we can't call it a 19 year old season.

 

[clunk]

I really don't see what is appealing about Virtanen's game. He throws a nice hit once in a while. He can get you 10-15 goals, albeit pretty one dimensionally. He's a strict north-south player with a defensive game that is less than ideal. He's also frustrating as hell to watch when he's disengaged, which is most of the time. He's a half decent NHLer I guess, but rather than wait for him to be a mainstay on the 3rd/4th line, I would see what you could get out of him. I'm sure his perceived value around the league is still good. Also lol @ Daniel Sedin being mentioned in the same stratosphere as Virtanen.

Juolevi struggled in the AHL defensively and there are questions as to whether he can ever develop a defensive game good enough for the NHL. Biega, for example, is 5x the player Juolevi is defensively, yet he can barely keep a spot on the Canucks (he deserves one, however). Juolevi has a long way to go.

 

[ChilliBilly]

Let me rephrase what I said. I would trade either player or both if the return were impressive. I don't trust JB to make such a trade.