Player Discussion 2 Canucks That Require Patience, Not a Trade

[SwaggyCanuckMZ]

If anyone is interested I just wrote an article over at HFBoards partner, the Hockey Writers! I look at two players that the Vancouver Canucks should not trade this offseason, Jake Virtanen and Olli Juolevi. Let me know what you think and discuss below! Do you think I should have added any other players to the list?

Oops, forgot the link! Here it is,

https://thehockeywriters.com/canucks-virtanen-juolevi-do-not-trade/

Click to read more...

 

[DonnyNucker]

If anyone is interested I just wrote an article over at HFBoards partner, the Hockey Writers! I look at two players that the Vancouver Canucks should not trade this offseason, Jake Virtanen and Olli Juolevi. Let me know what you think and discuss below! Do you think I should have added any other players to the list?

It really depends on their perceived value in the market place. I suspect Jake has some value so I’d like to see him moved. He hasn’t been mature enough to play in his hometown. A fresh start is needed for Jake. In regards to Juolevi, I suspect his value is a late 2nd at this point or a reclamation project. We should absolutely hold onto him for another season

 

[82Ninety42011]

Considering draft position and trade value not a chance you trade either when value low. Juolevi has been hurt a lot so no idea what we have in him. Virtanen has had his chances but worst case we have a solid 3rd liner who could still take a step forward.

 

[ChilliBilly]

People are always too quick to trade players when they have little value. JV improved last year, hopefully he can do so again this year. And we have no idea how good Juolevi will be.

Simply put, I agree it would be the wrong time to trade either of these players.

 

[Hit the post]

People are always too quick to trade players when they have little value. JV improved last year, hopefully he can do so again this year. And we have no idea how good Juolevi will be.

Simply put, I agree it would be the wrong time to trade either of these players.

Benning included. Made a great read on Shinkaruk but swung BADLY on McCann.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Benning included. Made a great read on Shinkaruk but swung BADLY on McCann.

I don’t think he swung badly on McCann per se. I think it was more of a situation where Benning realized that in order to receive value, you had to give value.

The Canucks were in dire need of a right side dman at the time (and still are) since that entire right side was a complete and utter mess.

Benning and his Pro Scouting team thought that Gudbranson was the answer but it clearly wasn’t.

 

[iceburg]

I couldn't agree more. Trading either now would be selling very low in each case.
Good summary as well. The only thing I would say is that Virtanen has not shown potential to be an elite power forward. I would say, rather, that he has shown potential to be an effective middle 6 power forward. I think it's some of these high expectations that contribute to the impatience.
I hope both are allowed to developed in the organization for at least another couple of years.

(that said, it sure would be nice to have Ehlers and Tkachuk in the line-up)

 

[y2kcanucks]

If we could get a 1st round pick for either of them, bye bye. But I don't think either of them would return anything more than a 3rd for Virtanen, and maybe a 4th or 5th for Juolevi. At those prices it's worth just holding on to them and seeing if you can develop them into anything.

Then again, those who were happy with the Shinkaruk for Granlund trade shouldn't complain about the idea of trading away Juolevi for someone like Christian Jaros. Same idea.

 

[MS]

Virtanen pretty clearly has more value as a cheap depth player here than he’d command in a trade.

Juolevi I don’t know what his market value is around the league and suspect it isn’t high. But if someone was willing to give 2nd round pick-type value for him then we should probably be taking that.

Also it isn’t exactly great writing to proclaim as fact that Juolevi will just be a quality top-4 defender and give zero reasons why.

 

[Shattered Dreams]

Not to derail anything, but the first comment on your article is comparing Jake to Markus Naslund and Juolevi to Lidstrom. You may have a Benning/Weisbrod burner on there.

But as for Virtanen and Juolevi, I can't imagine teams are lining up to trade for either. Maybe Jake Virtanen if they ignore his streaky goal scoring. It's hard to say. I do like Jake, but if a better option is out there, I would definitely consider it. Just depends on how other teams value him.

 

[settinguptheplay]

If we could get a 1st round pick for either of them, bye bye. But I don't think either of them would return anything more than a 3rd for Virtanen, and maybe a 4th or 5th for Juolevi. At those prices it's worth just holding on to them and seeing if you can develop them into anything.

Then again, those who were happy with the Shinkaruk for Granlund trade shouldn't complain about the idea of trading away Juolevi for someone like Christian Jaros. Same idea.

At those values I think the Canuck's would be better off taking the risk and keeping them. I would rather see Juolevi waste away to no value at all before accepting a 4th or 5th for him now. Virtanen I can still see another level to his game. Wishful thinking perhaps. But a 3rd would be very underwhelming. Even if Virtanen's game never progressed from the point he is now he could still garner a 3rd at any point over the next several years.

 

[Canucks1096]

Not to derail anything, but the first comment on your article is comparing Jake to Markus Naslund and Juolevi to Lidstrom. You may have a Benning/Weisbrod burner on there.

But as for Virtanen and Juolevi, I can't imagine teams are lining up to trade for either. Maybe Jake Virtanen if they ignore his streaky goal scoring. It's hard to say. I do like Jake, but if a better option is out there, I would definitely consider it. Just depends on how other teams value him.

Naslund also put up 55 points as a 22 year old. Virtanen 25 points at the same age so not sure where the compairson is coming from.

 

[SwaggyCanuckMZ]

Virtanen pretty clearly has more value as a cheap depth player here than he’d command in a trade.

Juolevi I don’t know what his market value is around the league and suspect it isn’t high. But if someone was willing to give 2nd round pick-type value for him then we should probably be taking that.

Also it isn’t exactly great writing to proclaim as fact that Juolevi will just be a quality top-4 defender and give zero reasons why.

I did say why. He can run a power play and move the puck effectively up the ice. Those are great qualities of a top-4 defender.

 

[Canucks1096]

People are always too quick to trade players when they have little value. JV improved last year, hopefully he can do so again this year. And we have no idea how good Juolevi will be.

Simply put, I agree it would be the wrong time to trade either of these players.

Play without the puck and the decision making, it did improve. In term of offence, it didn't improve at all. The difference in points this year was because of empty net points with 4 and ppp with 2. Actual even strength 5 on 5 play the point total was about the same. Considering the fact he got 3 more mins of ice tome this year and played 380 mins with Horvat/Petey. There wasn't any improvement in his 5 on 5 on offence. That is concerning, better linemates and more ice time and didn't improve his offence. You can get make an argument he got worst in offence.

If there are any team that is willing give up a top 6 winger in his 20s. Its a no brainer, you have to make that trade.

 

[Hoglander]

Don't agree with OP at all. Canucks are trying to get better, and neither of these guys are going to help do that - now, or down the road.

Jake will always have horse-blinders on, and he won't ever be able to use his teamates and play as a unit. He isn't part of the solution, we're better off giving someone else a shot. He's pretty useless, and unless we literally have nobody to fill his 4th line spot, we should get whatever we can before his percieved value drops even farther than it has. Disappointing, easily-replaceable player. Ultra-disappointing pick that fills a spot, but skates around doing his own thing and doesn't help pull the rope.

Juolevi is a straight up bust. Nobody is going to trade any sort of valuable asset for this injury prone dman that can't even defend at lower levels. He makes Utica worse, and he's taking up a valuable contract spot (lost even more value in the JT Miller trade becuase we had to include Mazanec - as we were at the contract limit). I'd just bury him in the ECHL until his ELC is finished and just forget about him. Addition by subtraction.

I know it seems harsh, but I don't care about what we paid to get these 2. It's about what they do on the ice. Moving on from them now won't have any effect, except for possibly getting different players that might actually help this team.

 

[Canucks1096]

People like to talk about its a gamble trading young players like Virtanen, Juolevi and I will throw in Gaudette as well. The way I see it, either way you are taking a gamble. You are taking a gamble but not trading them and getting an asset back. All 3 maybe have some value right now. Another season without progress, whatever value They have left might turn into nothing.

Virtanen and Gaudette turning into a top 6 is almost 0.

 

[I in the Eye]

I did say why. He can run a power play and move the puck effectively up the ice. Those are great qualities of a top-4 defender.

That's what they said about Larsen and Pouliot. Those are great qualities for a top 4 dman to have... but just having those qualities doesn't make a player a top 4 dman.

 

[SwaggyCanuckMZ]

Don't agree with OP at all. Canucks are trying to get better, and neither of these guys are going to help do that - now, or down the road.

Jake will always have horse-blinders on, and he won't ever be able to use his teamates and play as a unit. He isn't part of the solution, we're better off giving someone else a shot. He's pretty useless, and unless we literally have nobody to fill his 4th line spot, we should get whatever we can before his percieved value drops even farther than it has. Disappointing, easily-replaceable player. Ultra-disappointing pick that fills a spot, but skates around doing his own thing and doesn't help pull the rope.

Juolevi is a straight up bust. Nobody is going to trade any sort of valuable asset for this injury prone dman that can't even defend at lower levels. He makes Utica worse, and he's taking up a valuable contract spot (lost even more value in the JT Miller trade becuase we had to include Mazanec - as we were at the contract limit). I'd just bury him in the ECHL until his ELC is finished and just forget about him. Addition by subtraction.

I know it seems harsh, but I don't care about what we paid to get these 2. It's about what they do on the ice. Moving on from them now won't have any effect, except for possibly getting different players that might actually help this team.

Wow, have you watched Jake Virtanen at all? He has speed, and a great shot. He is only 23, not a 30 year old. And you are also off base with Juolevi. He has not played one NHL game yet. Can we not rush judgement until he actually suits up and plays against NHL talent? He is also only 21. In my opinion, young players are written off sooner than in the past. We forget that even the Sedins took a while to establish themselves in the league. Naslund was also a late bloomer. I'm sure Pittsburgh regretted trading him when they did. I respect your opinion, but I respectively disagree.

 

[SwaggyCanuckMZ]

That's what they said about Larsen and Pouliot. Those are great qualities for a top 4 dman to have... but just having those qualities doesn't make a player a top 4 dman.

I agree, but I just see the calmness in Juolevi's game that is different from those two. Tanev is a top-4 dman because of this calmness. All I am saying is let's wait and see on him. He hasn't been given a proper chance (no chance in fact!) yet in the NHL

 

[Hit the post]

Naslund put up 52 points in 66 NHL games (95/96 season) before he turned 23. He wasn’t a late bloomer. Course if Jake rode shotgun on Mario’s one, he’d probably pile up some points as well. Still at this point, he’s the 2nd best 1st round pick of Benning in the 2014 Canucks draft.

 

[MS]

I did say why. He can run a power play and move the puck effectively up the ice. Those are great qualities of a top-4 defender.

Running a PP has nothing to do with being a top-4 defender.

Likewise, simply moving the puck well doesn’t make you a top-4 defender. There are tons of 3rd pairing puck movers out there.

Right now his defensive game doesn’t project at all and his skating is a major problem. When you can’t even be trusted to take a defensive zone faceoff in the AHL at this stage of your career, you are absolutely not some kind of lock to be an NHL top-4 guy.

The two guys he’s tracking most similarly to right now are David Rundblad and Derrick Pouliot. That isn’t good.

 

[I am toxic]

I've had it with Juolevi. Try and get a bag of pucks for him, otherwise so be it.

 

[RobertKron]

Wow, have you watched Jake Virtanen at all? He has speed, and a great shot. He is only 23, not a 30 year old. And you are also off base with Juolevi. He has not played one NHL game yet. Can we not rush judgement until he actually suits up and plays against NHL talent? He is also only 21. In my opinion, young players are written off sooner than in the past. We forget that even the Sedins took a while to establish themselves in the league. Naslund was also a late bloomer. I'm sure Pittsburgh regretted trading him when they did. I respect your opinion, but I respectively disagree.

Daniel Sedin scored 20 goals as a 19 year old rookie.

 

[Fatass]

Daniel Sedin scored 20 goals as a 19 year old rookie.

Daniel Sedin is a HHOF talent, who had elite hockey IQ. Plus Danny was internally wired to compete and always be at his best. Jake is missing the internal desire to sacrifice off the ice, and on the ice.

 

[Canucks1096]

Fyi

Virtanen was 19 in his first full season. D Sedin was 20 in his first full season.