Post-Game Talk: 2-1 Hawks (Shootout) - Leadership Edition.

[Shady Machine]

I don't understand why they would treat player contracts one way (proratable) throughout the CBA and then switch without detailed disclosure or explanation.

Because if you are correct the pens literally could not call up a guy like Dumo or Megna (cap hit in the .85 range) right now as their contracts would also have to go dollar for dollar atthe full amount since they have been recalled after the LTIR threshold and would thus be considered replacement players.

I don't know. I have a strong love/hate with the salary cap.

From Capgeek:


http://web.archive.org/web/20141005074923/http://www.capgeek.com/faq/how-does-long-term-injured-reserve-LTIR-work

BASIC IN-SEASON EXAMPLE
The upper limit is $70.0M. A team has a cap payroll or Averaged Club Salary of $69.0M on the day a player with a $4.0M cap hit is placed on LTIR. The team is now eligible to spend up to a new upper limit of $73.0M ($69.0M + $4.0M).

However, had the team recalled a player with a $750K cap hit prior to the LTIR designation, increasing its cap payroll or Averaged Club Salary to $69.75M, it would have been eligible to spend up to a new upper limit of $73.75M ($69.75M + $4.0M).
Likewise, had the team recalled two players each with $500K cap hits prior to making the LTIR designation, increasing its cap payroll or Averaged Club Salary to exactly $70.0M, it would have been eligible to spend to a new upper limit of $74.0M ($70.0M + $4.0M).

In the above example — where the team maximized their cap space with the $1.0M recall to get a new upper limit of $74.0M — the team could demote the two $500K players the day after the LTIR designation is made, reduce their cap payroll or Averaged Club Salary to $69.0M, and have the ability to add a cap hit via trade of exactly $5.0M.

That, of course, would only be a viable option if the player projects to be on LTIR through to the final day of the regular season. In addition, that $5.0M figure does not increase as the season progresses, because as mentioned above, LTI cap space cannot be “banked” for future use.

These simple examples illustrate why teams in LTI situations often make what sometimes appear to be inexplicable one-day recalls and demotions. They’re manipulating their team’s cap payroll or Averaged Club Salary in order to maximize their cap space going forward.

Please note the numbers and scenarios in this example are simplified for ease of understanding.

Please note the bold for emphasis. It doesn't say "they can add a pro-rated cap hit of 5MM, it says they can add a caphit via trade of exactly 5MM.

That's about as black and white as I can find.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

From Capgeek:


http://web.archive.org/web/20141005074923/http://www.capgeek.com/faq/how-does-long-term-injured-reserve-LTIR-work




Please not the bold for emphasis. It doesn't say "they can add a pro-rated cap hit of 5MM, it says they can add a caphit via trade of exactly 5MM.

That's about as black and white as I can find.

Id be really interested to how the NHL calculates this because if that is correct say a player was trade for mid season exactly. Then half their cap hit would be on their first team and their whole cap hit is added to the new team if using LTIR overage? Also if true NHLnumbers needs to reevaluate how they do their numbers.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

1. Wow again actually read what I said. Or is that too difficult. I NEVER said it will effect their space, I said it is something they will keep under consideration when figuring out what they want to spend. Im sure everything being equal they would rather pay it this year than next. So if they are projecting out cap space and they have this bonus included with the ability to take it off if they either plan on sending him down or concede to pay it next year. So if Rutherford is talking about available space he could very well be using the numbers with it included. I mean if you don't think a major business would keep this into their numbers as a worst case scenario then I don't know what to tell you.

2. Well despite your opinion the only vet playing that poorly is Adams and it because of lack of talent. As soon as they have another winger I would expect Adams to sit consistently. As far as Kunitz, yes he isn't looking great but he is still producing and no coach is taking that out of the lineup on a team that's been struggling to score. Not to mention he has been demoted to the 2nd and 3rd line this year. Sutter is a center and they simply have no other viable options. I believe the view Spaling as an emergency center only.

3. Maybe it was because the KCD line was absolutely dominant that year and Neal was having a great (on that side) year as well. I see the argument of inserting Iggy there and I agree with it but there was plenty of justifiable reason not to. IMO the bigger issue is the communication breakdown between Shero/Bylsma.

4. Actually I have said quite the opposite, but then again either you cannot or will not read what I am actually writing and have some weird obsession with punishing players. I have no issue with Adams playing over Sill and I would have no issue with Sill playing over Adams. Quite simple. I have no issue scratching a player for an inferior player (Bennett instead of Adams/Sill) AS LONG AS it is short term only AND for a tangible purpose (to work on thing with that player for example).

Nothing that happened the last 5 years under COMPELTELY different management is in any way shape or form relevant. NOT AT ALL.

Believe whatever you want. You apparently know more than someone like Mouser and the rest of us who know the CBA quite well, after all. Instant expert in the fold.

The coaches have been unhappy with Kunitz's play most of the season, so he is rewarded with first unit PP time and played with Crosby. That'll show him. Roll the excuse train on down the line...

Dupuis and Kunitz (still) kept finding their way onto Crosby's line, it doesn't take a great sleuth to figure it out.

Ironic, given you can't understand what I've been repeating for awhile now. I have no problem with disciplining players, in fact that's what I want to see. I have a problem with young players being singled out for that punishment while the vets coast. You have yet to tell me one tenured vet who has sat, and there have been plenty of candidates over the last several months.

Roll that excuse train champ.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Believe whatever you want. You apparently know more than someone like Mouser and the rest of us who know the CBA quite well, after all.

The coaches have been unhappy with Kunitz's play most of the season, so he is rewarded with first unit PP time and played with Crosby. That'll show him. Roll the excuse train on down the line...

Dupuis and Kunitz (still) kept finding their way onto Crosby's line, it doesn't take a great sleuth to figure it out.

Ironic, given you can't understand what I've been repeating for awhile now. I have no problem with disciplining players, in fact that's what I want to see. I have a problem with young players being singled out for that punishment while the vets coast. You have yet to tell me one tenured vet who has sat, and there have been plenty of candidates over the last several months.

1. Way to change the subject on point one. Do you think GMs take roster bonuses into account when determining cap space? As far as determining the CBA im actually having a constructive conversation with Shady Machine. I know you don't know what a constructive conversation is but it doesn't include putting words into peoples mouths and moving goalposts.

2. Yeah they were doing great that year. It might not have been the right move but it was easily a debatable one.

3. I have said multiple time why vets don't get scratched as easily as young player or at least justifiable reasons. Even if you don't agree with those reasons.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Roll that excuse train champ.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

1. Way to change the subject on point one. Do you think GMs take roster bonuses into account when determining cap space? As far as determining the CBA im actually having a constructive conversation with Shady Machine. I know you don't know what a constructive conversation is but it doesn't include putting words into peoples mouths and moving goalposts.

2. Yeah they were doing great that year. It might not have been the right move but it was easily a debatable one.

3. I have said multiple time why vets don't get scratched as easily as young player or at least justifiable reasons. Even if you don't agree with those reasons.

You jump into my convo with Danish and slung barbs at me, then expect me to have respect for you? Please. I always love these posters that get disrespectful, then get upset when you give them the same treatment back.

I tried to be cool and explain the cap situation to you, then even went to Mouser to help you and others understand it further. But it is what it is. A know it all, knows it all.

As for the rest, it's just a bunch of excuses and keyboard diarrhea from you.

 

[Shady Machine]

Id be really interested to how the NHL calculates this because if that is correct say a player was trade for mid season exactly. Then half their cap hit would be on their first team and their whole cap hit is added to the new team if using LTIR overage? Also if true NHLnumbers needs to reevaluate how they do their numbers.

Yeah I understand where you are coming from and it is confusing. It seems like all of these sources, including capgeek, are interpretations of the language in the CBA, but we don't get to see how the NHL actually calculates it.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

You jump into my convo with Danish and slung barbs at me, then expect me to have respect for you? Please. I always love these posters that get disrespectful, then get upset when you give them the same treatment back.

I tried to be cool and explain the cap situation to you, then even went to Mouser to help you and others understand it further. But it is what it is. A know it all, knows it all.

As for the rest, it's just a bunch of excuses and keyboard diarrhea from you.

1. Huh I really don't give a flying fig who you have respect for. Once again changing the subject.

2. Like I said im actually having a constructive conversation on it, nothing you have said has been anywhere near constructive who just keeping say the same thing over and over.

3. As for the rest your just b*tthurt that someone you like got scratched and not Adams. You have a weird thing about punishing people. I feel bad for you, as you have no perspective on anything. Because god forbid a NHL hockey coach disagrees with you but hey a know it all, knows it all.

 

[IcedCapp]

I once had a wall.

I would talk to this wall.

I named the wall John.

After a few hours of the wall not listening to me, I stopped talking to it.

 

[Shady Machine]

I once had a wall.

I would talk to this wall.

I named the wall John.

After a few hours of the wall not listening to me, I stopped talking to it.

John, are you there?

 

[madinsomniac]

To be fair, in the last game Rob Scuderi had probably as bad a turnover as one can have in his own zone. it was careless and paniced and telegraphed, yet he did not miss a shift. Ive seen Adams lollygag in all three zones and half ass a dozen shifts, then extend them, and since the first month I havent seen them cut his shifts at all. He has been the culprit of more failed clearing attempts and shoddy boardwork than any player I can ever remember who got as regular ice time as he does...

If Despres or Bennett had that kind of turnover they would be benched for games. if they played as some of the vets do they would lose shifts right and left... there is an absolute double standard that is just foolish on this squad

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Yeah I understand where you are coming from and it is confusing. It seems like all of these sources, including capgeek, are interpretations of the language in the CBA, but we don't get to see how the NHL actually calculates it.

You would think that it would be easier to reverse prorate the overage down so that over the course of the season you can add a player with the same base salary, and any prorate discussion would be moot. Or just remove the players cap hit once their injured. Or really any other method.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

1. Huh I really don't give a flying fig who you have respect for. Once again changing the subject.

2. Like I said im actually having a constructive conversation on it, nothing you have said has been anywhere near constructive who just keeping say the same thing over and over.

3. As for the rest your just b*tthurt that someone you like got scratched and not Adams. You have a weird thing about punishing people. I feel bad for you, as you have no perspective on anything. Because god forbid a NHL hockey coach disagrees with you but hey a know it all, knows it all.

It's not possible to have a serious conversation with a know it all who misinterprets not only what I say, but misinterprets the CBA language as well. Then when he is told he is wrong, and told in detail why, still insists he is right.

Then as Rocket pointed out, you throw barbs and hyperbole at me, and think somehow I'm taking you seriously?

 

[IcedCapp]

To be fair, in the last game Rob Scuderi had probably as bad a turnover as one can have in his own zone. it was careless and paniced and telegraphed, yet he did not miss a shift. Ive seen Adams lollygag in all three zones and half ass a dozen shifts, then extend them, and since the first month I havent seen them cut his shifts at all. He has been the culprit of more failed clearing attempts and shoddy boardwork than any player I can ever remember who got as regular ice time as he does...

If Despres or Bennett had that kind of turnover they would be benched for games. if they played as some of the vets do they would lose shifts right and left... there is an absolute double standard that is just foolish on this squad

Despres made such a turnover and was removed from Letang's pair permanently and lost about 4 minutes of ice time for a week+

Scuderi has made three such plays in a two week span, has never missed a shift.

None of Scuderi's miscues have wound up in the back of the net, but that's not the proper way to approach situations.

 

[Michael8771*]

I thought the cap issue was resolved several days ago.

 

[Shady Machine]

Despres made such a turnover and was removed from Letang's pair permanently and lost about 4 minutes of ice time for a week+

Scuderi has made three such plays in a two week span, has never missed a shift.

None of Scuderi's miscues have wound up in the back of the net, but that's not the proper way to approach situations.

Yeah but Scuds is a cagey veteran who always makes the smart play.

 

[Shady Machine]

I thought the cap issue was resolved several days ago.

I was hoping you wouldn't show up for this.

 

[Michael8771*]

I was hoping you wouldn't show up for this.

I'm not gonna go over it again,

I'm just surprised it's still being debated.

 

[IcedCapp]

Yeah but Scuds is a cagey veteran who always makes the smart play.

What gets me more than anything is how onboard the media is. Insulate Scuderi, Kunitz, Sutter, kill Despres, Bennett, etc...

 

[MtlPenFan]

What gets me more than anything is how onboard the media is. Insulate Scuderi, Kunitz, Sutter, kill Despres, Bennett, etc...

Yohe or Mackey yesterday after the GLARING giveaway by Scuds:

"Boy, Scuderi owes Fleury a beer!"

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

It's not possible to have a serious conversation with a know it all who misinterprets not only what I say, but misinterprets the CBA language as well. Then when he is told he is wrong, and told in detail why, still insists he is right.

Then as Rocket pointed out, you throw barbs and hyperbole at me, and think somehow I'm taking you seriously?

Funny coming from you.

Im not misrepresenting anything about what you say. I might be misunderstanding the CBA language.

Its funny as I have had 2 discussions about these same two thing with people who disagree today (shady Machine and Rowdy Roddy Peeper) without any of the strawmen and goalpost moving. Funny that you seem to be the common dominator.

But to you understanding the reasoning of benching Bennett mean im completely satisfied with Adams though they are completely unrelated.

But to you what happened under an different coach has anything to do with this coach.

But to you coaches are scared of their stars. MJ is afraid of Crosby but not Malkin who is running the PP that will get 2nd fiddle minutes.

But to you scratching a young kid over Craig Adams means he is scared (even though Adams is by far not a star) and that's is supposedly a fact.

 

[Al Smith]

To be fair, in the last game Rob Scuderi had probably as bad a turnover as one can have in his own zone. it was careless and paniced and telegraphed, yet he did not miss a shift. Ive seen Adams lollygag in all three zones and half ass a dozen shifts, then extend them, and since the first month I havent seen them cut his shifts at all. He has been the culprit of more failed clearing attempts and shoddy boardwork than any player I can ever remember who got as regular ice time as he does...

If Despres or Bennett had that kind of turnover they would be benched for games. if they played as some of the vets do they would lose shifts right and left... there is an absolute double standard that is just foolish on this squad

Adams managed two turnovers in one shift early yesterday. At least Scuds showed a little remorse for his gaffe. It's just business as usual for 27.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Funny coming from you.

Im not misrepresenting anything about what you say. I might be misunderstanding the CBA language.

Its funny as I have had 2 discussions about these same two thing with people who disagree today (shady Machine and Rowdy Roddy Peeper) without any of the strawmen and goalpost moving. Funny that you seem to be the common dominator.

But to you understanding the reasoning of benching Bennett mean im completely satisfied with Adams though they are completely unrelated.

But to you what happened under an different coach has anything to do with this coach.

But to you coaches are scared of their stars. MJ is afraid of Crosby but not Malkin who is running the PP that will get 2nd fiddle minutes.

But to you scratching a young kid over Craig Adams means he is scared (even though Adams is by far not a star) and that's is supposedly a fact.

The guy who jumped into my convo with Danish and threw barbs and hyperbole at me first, is now a victim and butt hurt because I wasn't nice to him (even though days earlier I was kind enough to keep patiently trying to explain how the LTIR designations affect the Pens cap... Only to be told I was wrong again and again).

Gotta love this place.

 

[Frederick Stanley]

Oh my God, we're so done here.