Line Combos: 1st vs. 2nd line - time to split up Ehlers - Little - Laine? Mod Warning Post #552

[Couchcaptain]

The reality seem's to be somehow lost with this overwhelming positivity about winning. Truth is that this team has looked like shit in most of the games i have seen, and i have seen plenty.
Even the first line has looked like shit quite often, especially defensively. Hemmed on own zone for long periods. It's quite interesting situation, they win games like cup contender, but they look like a non playoff team most of the time.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

I guess you don't want to fix the PK either then? We are winning after all.

My point is that this team is not some sort of house of cards. We can (and should) tinker with the ineffective bits and we won't fall off a cliff. And if we do, we can always change it back.

Incorrect. Special teams are their own animal. Our PK is a shooting gallery disaster. I have been vocal about the need to bring in a PK specialist coach and to take it completely out of Maurice's hands. Maurice has had years to fix it and has proven he can't. Even our PPlay is often a clusterpuck , but we have so much skill up front that it is finding success anyway.

 

[Psych0dad]

Does Laine not play in the same system as the other wingers on this team? Some of which have not visibly (IMO) had the same troubles with the breakout?

Every line breaks out differently. This is definitely by coaches design for 2nd line. That breakout scenario is not one Laine would choose to execute because it leaves him so far behind the play.

You can thank Maurice for that stroke of genius

 

[Dayofthedogs]

The reality seem's to be somehow lost with this overwhelming positivity about winning. Truth is that this team has looked like **** in most of the games i have seen, and i have seen plenty.
Even the first line has looked like **** quite often, especially defensively. Hemmed on own zone for long periods. It's quite interesting situation, they win games like cup contender, but they look like a non playoff team most of the time.

 

[grieves]

Incorrect. Special teams are their own animal. Our PK is a shooting gallery disaster. I have been vocal about the need to bring in a PK specialist coach and to take it completely out of Maurice's hands. Maurice has had years to fix it and has proven he can't. Even our PPlay is often a clusterpuck , but we have so much skill up front that it is finding success anyway.

So changing the penalty kill is fine, but switching two players around is too much, when in-fact we have data that suggests it is a good move?

I can understand where you are coming from, but I just don't agree.

There are so many factors that affect the outcomes of the games that we are fooling ourselves if we think we are winning just because everything is perfect with the line-up and the team. And even if we are winning, who is to say we could not be winning even more? The team has a very talented player-pool and we have been getting Vezina goaltending so winning is kind of the expectation. We also have 4 wins against Arizona and Dallas who are kind of weak-sauce (at least the Jets have Dallas' number). Some of the games have been tight 2-1 wins, but with this roster, I don't like it when Helle has to steal games for us. It just does not seem like something that should be happening.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy winning as much as the next person, but in my opinion we are not the powerhouse we can be.

 

[googleIsMyFriend]

The reality seem's to be somehow lost with this overwhelming positivity about winning. Truth is that this team has looked like **** in most of the games i have seen, and i have seen plenty.
Even the first line has looked like **** quite often, especially defensively. Hemmed on own zone for long periods. It's quite interesting situation, they win games like cup contender, but they look like a non playoff team most of the time.

I see that often opponent team doesn't get proper scoring chances against Jets. Possession doesn't mean much. And tbh, no team plays perfect game at the moment cos season is so young. However, against strong teams Jets does play better. I'm hugely confident that Jets are one of the most strongest teams in this season.

 

[dratbunnies]

Every line breaks out differently. This is definitely by coaches design for 2nd line. That breakout scenario is not one Laine would choose to execute because it leaves him so far behind the play.

You can thank Maurice for that stroke of genius

Out of curiosity because I truly know nothing about this, is there any more evidence that it is the coaches design than simply saying Laine would not choose that option himself?

Also in terms of different break out strategies for different lines, that seems pretty suspect to me. What happens when the lines are shuffled in game? Do they play two thirds one breakout strategy and a third the other way? Do they think back to a practice two and half months ago that practiced this exact line combination? And what about all the talk teams have about having players come up from the minors and fitting right into the system because the farm team played the same way, is that even dependent on which line they are playing in the A?

 

[Couchcaptain]

I see that often opponent team doesn't get proper scoring chances against Jets. Possession doesn't mean much. And tbh, no team plays perfect game at the moment cos season is so young. However, against strong teams Jets does play better. I'm hugely confident that Jets are one of the most strongest teams in this season.

I don't know.. I have seen plenty of good scoring chances by opponent teams. Truth is, Hellebuyck has been flaming hot. Lot of games have been painful to watch. Team discipline looks far better than last seoson though.

 

[Festinator]

Every line breaks out differently. This is definitely by coaches design for 2nd line. That breakout scenario is not one Laine would choose to execute because it leaves him so far behind the play.

You can thank Maurice for that stroke of genius

I think this is just too convenient of an excuse, tbh. Have you seen their practices? Every line works on the same breakout. It doesn't make sense for different lines to have different breakouts, because players move between different lines constantly throughout the season, so that would constantly lead to costly mistakes if there's 4 different breakout strategies with various variations depending on the situation at hand.

The only difference is that some lines are better at breakouts than others. But no, the 2nd line doesn't have some super duper special breakout scenario that is worse than the other lines and leaves Laine behind the play. That's not how it works.

If a break out starts on the left side, all the players have a different role than if it starts on the right. Laine will be the one receiving the breakout pass in some situations, and he'll be making the breakout pass in others.

 

[Halberdier]

That is true. Except every suggestion in this thread does change CSW and most remove Sheif from Wheeler who are both running at 1.25+ P/G.

Incorrect. There were some 5-6 suggestion on the thread before that post, and 2 of them did not touch CSW at all, namely:

PLL (line that worked to certain degree already this season)

and maybe a bit utopistic wish to replace Little with Roslovic.

 

[Festinator]

I don't know.. I have seen plenty of good scoring chances by opponent teams. Truth is, Hellebuyck has been flaming hot. Lot of games have been painful to watch. Team discipline looks far better than last seoson though.

There really aren't any more than normal. All you need to do is look at the expected goals for and against for each game, and you'll see that the Jets often perform well in these categories. Hellebuyck has played fantastic this season, but the jets have not been allowing many 2nd or 3rd chances, or many high danger scoring opportunities.

Odd man rushes against, for example, are vastly improved compared to last season.

 

[Festinator]

Incorrect. There were some 5-6 suggestion on the thread before that post, and 2 of them did not touch CSW at all, namely:

PLL (line that worked to certain degree already this season)

and maybe a bit utopistic wish to replace Little with Roslovic.

While I don't want to split up Scheifele and Wheeler (right now anyways) PSL was one of the best performing lines last season and probably my favourite. Would really like to see it again at some point. They may not have scored as much as ESL, but they just worked together so damn well.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

I can understand where you are coming from, but I just don't agree.

That's cool. Differing points of view are what this forum is all about in terms of the stimulating discussion that takes place.

 

[Psych0dad]

People don't want to split up Scheifele and Wheeler. Although the point of that move could very well elevate the games of Little, Laine, Ehlers and Scheifele.

I think everyone should do some basic math on which option has more possible gain for the Jets.

Or is it that you don't trust Little with Wheeler anymore? I'd be ok with that fear, but people need to start saying it if that in fact is what they are afraid of.

 

[Halberdier]

While I don't want to split up Scheifele and Wheeler (right now anyways) PSL was one of the best performing lines last season and probably my favourite. Would really like to see it again at some point. They may not have scored as much as ESL, but they just worked together so damn well.

I second that, PSL could be ideal. Another interesting combination could be LSW, since that doesn't break up the hot duo Scheifele + Wheeler. ESW had similar (maybe even better point wise?) performance than CSW, so while Connor has been excellent, I don't think Scheifele and Wheeler would stop working with anyone of Laine, Ehlers or Perreault.

Perreault and Scheifele matches Laine so well, but they actually match pretty much anybody.

 

[grieves]

I can't shake garret's suggestion that we should have Scheif, Wheeler, and Perreault on different lines to drive the lines.

Perreault came back, and the line he was on started clicking instantly.

The only lines having problems are the ones where none of these players are in, and I don't think that is a coincidence.

 

[Rene Saari]

That might be, but I don't understand the reason. He was LW for a moment when last season started. Did do awesome job offensively, had some struggles defensively. Then he did switch him to RW, which did help him defensively, but also his offensive production did go down.

Laine was a 18-year-old rookie with only couple of NHL games on his belt. I do think that he has developed a lot since that and really should get another opportunity to play LW very soon. That should allow him so much more opportunities to shoot the puck, which is a good thing. That would give him more tools for one-on-one plays as well. Also Laine was surprisingly good defensively on FEL, while playing LW, so that really should not be an issue. Laine was often replacing a defenseman, and you did not need ever worry when that happened since he did never let his guy deke through, but he always stayed between the play and the net.

As said, Maurice thinks so, I don't.
But he's the professional one, isn't he?

 

[Ducky10]

The reality seem's to be somehow lost .

You had me at this.

 

[QuietContrarian]

This looks just like another Laine thread....

Keep the 1st line as it is, its working.

Not worried about Laine he is fine, and has been playing well and getti g points, so I fail to see the problem with Laine? id be more worried about Little and Ehlers.

I am all for shuffling the bottom 9,

 

[Rene Saari]

I'm not the guy you responded to, but there's a difference between being good defensively and being good at transitioning from defence to offence.

I think Little's slow start to the season has hurt Laine more than being on a line with Ehlers. I don't see how we can break up Connor-Scheifele-wheeler right now. Maybe move Perreault up to C the second line?

Could be, but the thing is: we will probably never know it for good.
Maurice has his obsessions with the certain lines and players. And to have him forgetting those... well, I think it is impossible.
F.e. Armia is the most skilled guy behind Scheifele and Laine.
Ehlers, Connor and Wheeler are so and so.

 

[grieves]

This looks just like another Laine thread....

Keep the 1st line as it is, its working.

Not worried about Laine he is fine, and has been playing well and getti g points, so I fail to see the problem with Laine? id be more worried about Little and Ehlers.

I am all for shuffling the bottom 9,

We have a dedicated thread for this discussion and you are STILL pulling the Laine card? C'mon man give it a rest.

 

[QuietContrarian]

We have a dedicated thread for this discussion and you are STILL pulling the Laine card? C'mon man give it a rest.

I am giving it a rest, just the first 2 pages are all Laine...
Am I not allowed to comment on that?

And what do you mean still, btw? Think ive mentioned it ONCE before

If so, I truly apologize, not looking for a fight - Just sickingly tired of so many threads turning into Laine threads.

 

[QuietContrarian]

Could be, but the thing is: we will probably never know it for good.
Maurice has his obsessions with the certain lines and players. And to have him forgetting those... well, I think it is impossible.
F.e. Armia is the most skilled guy behind Scheifele and Laine.
Ehlers, Connor and Wheeler are so and so.

Lol, ok buddy..

This is getting old to hear from you Finns..

Wasnt impressed with Armia early in his ahl career when he played more top line minutes.

He shows flashes for sure, but both Connor and Ehlers are more skilled and so is Wheels imo.

 

[libertarian]

I can't shake garret's suggestion that we should have Scheif, Wheeler, and Perreault on different lines to drive the lines.

Perreault came back, and the line he was on started clicking instantly.

The only lines having problems are the ones where none of these players are in, and I don't think that is a coincidence.

The Jets have the third best winning percentage in the league right now so I don't understand why you want to fix something that right now is not broke.
They are winning.
Sooner or later that will change and when it does that is the time to try your ideas. Until that happens I just don't get the logic to change now.

 

[grieves]

I am giving it a rest, just the first 2 pages are all Laine...
Am I not allowed to comment on that?

If so, I truly apologize, not looking for a fight - Just sickingly tired of so many threads turning into Laine threads.

We must be reading different threads, I don't see that at all. I think the topic has been the lines. Yes, Laine is part of it, but definitely not the main point like you suggest IMO.